77r 0 #1 April 14, 2007 So, I'm seeing expired AADs for sale, and aside from trade value for a new one, does anyone know how much longer an aad will actually last past it's expiration date? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 51 #2 April 14, 2007 Doesn't matter how long. If I'm not mistaken, it's illegal to use one that's expired. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #3 April 14, 2007 It is a FAR viloation to jump a rig containing an ADD outside of the manufactors recommended maintence. A rigger should not pack a rig if the unit is expired. Airtec set its 12 year limit since they felt after that time the possibility for components to fail in the field was higher then their tolerences. It was originally 10 years then was extended to 12 after reviewing all the field data from their units at the maintence peroid.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #4 April 14, 2007 The rest of your life?As above they are illegal to use in the U.S. You, the pilot, the rigger and the dzo will be breaking federal regulations. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
77r 0 #5 April 14, 2007 Quote The rest of your life?As above they are illegal to use in the U.S. You, the pilot, the rigger and the dzo will be breaking federal regulations. That's odd considering they are not even required on some dropzones. I would think it would be better to have an AAD that "might" fail as opposed to not having one at all, unless a useless unit would somehow interfere with the reserve being deployed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #6 April 14, 2007 There is no mechanism that will cause an AAD to fail at a given date, beyond normal aging/wear of the components (which often last decades.) Assuming you change the battery of course. It is, however, illegal to pack a reserve with an expired AAD in the container, even if it's at a place where AAD's are not required. If you are running your own DZ, packing your own reserve and flying the airplane yourself, though, then at least if you try it, only you will be busted if there's a problem. Beyond that, you put other people's livelihoods at risk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #7 April 14, 2007 QuoteIt is a FAR viloation to jump a rig containing an ADD outside of the manufactors recommended maintence. A rigger should not pack a rig if the unit is expired. Airtec set its 12 year limit since they felt after that time the possibility for components to fail in the field was higher then their tolerences. It was originally 10 years then was extended to 12 after reviewing all the field data from their units at the maintence peroid. Originally, there was no expiration date. Then it was 10 years. Then is was lengthened to 12 years. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #8 April 14, 2007 The Feds don't care if you use one, but they do care if you don't use it correctly, i.e. according to the manufacturer's manual. It protects the uninformed customer, either of the rigger or of the rig owner, from thinking they have a properly maintained AAD when they don't. Remember all most all of the non student skydives prior to 1993 were made without an AAD.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #9 April 14, 2007 Quote That's odd considering they are not even required on some dropzones. When my AAD (Vigil) was first installed in my rig, the rigger didn't complete the packing data card completely with information about the unit. I had one DZ tell me "we don't require AADs here, but if you do have one, it has to be properly installed." They didn't consider the paperwork complete enough to make that determination. Ultimately they let me jump, but that's just an example of how a DZ that does not require them would still require them to be installed appropriately."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CygnusX-1 42 #10 April 16, 2007 Don't forget that there are two sides to this coin. It is not only that the AAD would not work when it is suppose to. But it could also decide to fire the cutter when it is not suppose to. It could give you a 2 out situation when you really didn't need your reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #11 April 16, 2007 How much longer will your microwave oven work? There is no useful answer to this question. With LOTS of test units you could build a failure model that would give you some statistical predictions, and those aren't very useful other than saying things such as, "you have a 50% chance of having the unit die in the next X years when stored/used under the following conditions..." -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #12 April 16, 2007 How long is an aircraft working after its airworthyness certificates expires? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #13 April 16, 2007 QuoteHow much longer will your microwave oven work? There is no useful answer to this question. With LOTS of test units you could build a failure model that would give you some statistical predictions, and those aren't very useful other than saying things such as, "you have a 50% chance of having the unit die in the next X years when stored/used under the following conditions..." Poor analogy. A malfunctioned microwave oven probably won't kill someone. An AAD that doesn't fire at all may fail to save a student who freezes and no-pulls. One that fires prematurely could easily cause a freefall-into-canopy collision and resulting double fatality. A malfunctioned AAD is uniquely what it is; nothing more, nothing less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brianfry713 0 #14 April 17, 2007 FAR 105.43(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
77r 0 #15 April 17, 2007 Quote How long is an aircraft working after its airworthyness certificates expires? How long will phoenixlpr play the know it all showoff by putting people's questions down in their posts?[no need to answer - rhetorical question] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #16 April 17, 2007 Quote Quote How long is an aircraft working after its airworthyness certificates expires? How long will phoenixlpr play the know it all showoff by putting people's questions down in their posts?[no need to answer - rhetorical question] Why would I ask questions if I know it all??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #17 April 17, 2007 A Cypres 1 will probably work for 20 years, if it is loving maintained. However, one drop on concrete/landing in a lake/etc. will destroy it. Maintenance schedules are not gospel. Rather they are educated guesses at wear and tear, corrosion and abuse. The other reason is that Airtec can no longer buy electronic components that were designed 15 years ago. Caveat, I still discourage people from skydiving with AADs that are outside the manufacturer's maintenance schedule and don't waste your time asking me to repack an AAD that is overdue for a factory inspection. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #18 April 17, 2007 Quote Quote The rest of your life?As above they are illegal to use in the U.S. You, the pilot, the rigger and the dzo will be breaking federal regulations. That's odd considering they are not even required on some dropzones. I would think it would be better to have an AAD that "might" fail as opposed to not having one at all, unless a useless unit would somehow interfere with the reserve being deployed. Its also against the regulations for an out-of-date emergency 'chute to be on the aircraft, even if the person is safer with a 'chute at 121 days rather than not having one at all. At some point they have to draw the line in the sand. Hopefully the line for repacks will get a little longer soon... JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AirtecKai 0 #19 April 20, 2007 Hi, I choose the " explain below " option. It's interesting to read that " Till it dosn't turn on" is considered as the only possible problem of a life-ex AAD. First and before this, the AAD has to work always correctly until it reaches it's expiration date. This is not easy to achive and requires a lot of efforts. If "it dosn't turn on" would be the only possible problem, there would be NO issues with AAD's at all. Please think. If you are interested in a little bit more background, this might be interesting for you:http://www.cypres.cc/Downloads/6_7_1_information_material/The_philosophie_of_reliability.pdf Blue Skies, Kai Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
