Javelin Hard housings - A little clarification

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey everyone,

I've been readin alot about hard housings and spinning mal's causing hard pulls etc.

I want to clarify what exactly hard housings protect.

When I have a spinning mal and the risers are spun up to the back of my neck, is it the cable housing in the riser that should have the hard housings?

I see 2 places for hard housings
A) On the rig , running from handles to top of rig and 3 rings etc.
B) The excess cutaway cable stows in the risers?

My rig has hard housings on the rig, but not in the risers? I can't see how a spun up main would be hard to cutaway if didn't have hard housings ni the container, but I can definately see the spun up risers holding the ends of the cutaway cable.

Clarification would be great, please ask me for clarification if this post doesn't make sense.

Thanks

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Hooknswoop 19]

Both should have hard housings.

Derek

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

That's kind of what I figured. I'm not sure how wound up a Spectre 135 can get at 1:1, but it definately scares me if I wasn't able to chop.

My Odyssey was made in '02 and the risers do not have inserts. I realize that the risers are probably not factory. That probably explains why i have an RSL connection on both risers...

Is it better to get factory risers which I assume would come with inserts, or retrofit whatever risers I have?

And can I buy any company's risers to install on my Odyssey and Spectre? Eg, buy VSE risers...

Thanks

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Hooknswoop 19]

You can buy any risers you wish, just make sure they are built to RWS's standards. RWS has the best inserts; metal with caps. That way if the tacking comes loose, the hard housing insert cannot slide out of the housing and through the white 3-ring locking loop preventing the riser from releasing.

Derek

[everymansaved 0]

You could also get the teflon inserts that RI pioneered (as far as I know it was RI). Some people call them "VooDoo Tubes." They are a bout 1/4" tubing made of a material very similar to the material that coats your cutaway cable. The idea being that the metal housings are good up until a certian degree of twisting riser crimping force, then they can crimp down on the cable and hold it in place. The teflon housings will allow the cable to slide through no matter how much force is on them. You can buy a set of risers with them installed, or I believe you can get the tubes from RI, and your rigger can install them.

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[everymansaved 0]

Sorry, that was suposed to be a reply to the orriginal poster, I'm sure you know about teflon housings Derek!

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

You can buy any risers you wish, just make sure they are built to RWS's standards. RWS has the best inserts; metal with caps. That way if the tacking comes loose, the hard housing insert cannot slide out of the housing and through the white 3-ring locking loop preventing the riser from releasing.

Derek

To Chris-Ottawa: I'm not sure if you realize there was some bad history of rigs made with fabric housings for the rig. These were troublesome, I believe, because it was not easy to ensure that the cables actually were routed within the fabric housing for the entire length, resulting in some hard cutaways.

Hook: I think the Velocity Sports Equipment (Infinity) hard riser housings are especially good because they have an 'eye' that the white loop must go through to keep them placed correctly. I think that even with a 'cap', hard housings can still slide out and lock up the white loop, depending on the length of the cutaway cable. I could not find a pic on the Velocity website of their housings.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[pringles 0]

I wouldn't bother with buying new risers. I would just have a rigger add the hard housing inserts to the risers you currently have. It is a pretty small project.

Matt Davies

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The idea being that the metal housings are good up until a certian degree of twisting riser crimping force, then they can crimp down on the cable and hold it in place.

I disagree here. If that was a real problem, then there would be incidents of the cutaway housing in the container getting smashed and preventing a cutaway. I have never heard of that happening. If you slam your rig in your car door and do not get it inspected, well........

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Hook: I think the Velocity Sports Equipment (Infinity) hard riser housings are especially good because they have an 'eye' that the white loop must go through to keep them placed correctly. I think that even with a 'cap', hard housings can still slide out and lock up the white loop, depending on the length of the cutaway cable. I could not find a pic on the Velocity website of their housings.

Oops, I forgot about those, ya those are great too. No way they can slide down.

Like what was mentioned, you can get a set of inserts from RWS and have your rigger install them in 5 minutes. Chreaper than buying new risers.

Derek

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Thanks everyone, hard inserts and housings now make sense. I'll contact my rigger and see what he recommends. I'll mention the RWS inserts as well.

Thanks again

24 more days until my home DZ opens.... WOOOOOOO!

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[bob.dino 0]

Quote

Quote

Hook: I think the Velocity Sports Equipment (Infinity) hard riser housings are especially good because they have an 'eye' that the white loop must go through to keep them placed correctly. I think that even with a 'cap', hard housings can still slide out and lock up the white loop, depending on the length of the cutaway cable. I could not find a pic on the Velocity website of their housings.

Oops, I forgot about those, ya those are great too. No way they can slide down.

One downside to the VSE riser inserts: there's a gap between the hard housing and the fabric pouch that it lives in. This means that a rushed/careless owner could put the excess cutaway cable between the housing and the fabric rather than inside the housing. This could then increase cutaway forces.

[RMURRAY 1]

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Both should have hard housings.

Derek

I don't buy the argument for inserts in the risers. People say they need them so the manufactures (most of them) build them and sell them at a higher price. I would like to see the proof that they are required and not just a bunch of "I had a spinning mal and cut away with no problem".

rm

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

You can buy any risers you wish, just make sure they are built to RWS's standards. RWS has the best inserts; metal with caps. That way if the tacking comes loose, the hard housing insert cannot slide out of the housing and through the white 3-ring locking loop preventing the riser from releasing.

Derek

True and Velocity Sports' (aka Infinity) main risers with hard housing inserts for the extra cut-away cable length are good too... but given Sunpath's "sand in pussy-ness" over RSLs on their gear... I wouldn't go putting anything but main risers with hard housings made by Sunpath on a Jav or Odyssey!

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One downside to the VSE riser inserts: there's a gap between the hard housing and the fabric pouch that it lives in. This means that a rushed/careless owner could put the excess cutaway cable between the housing and the fabric rather than inside the housing. This could then increase cutaway forces

BobD... also true... but come-on, someone so careless and rushed to not take the few seconds to properly assemble and verify the equipment that they are using to SAVE THEIR LIFE or SAVE SOMEONE ELSE'S LIFE after JUMPING OUT OF AN AIRPLANE is hardly an argument against something that could trip them up if they don't take even the slightest bit of care or seek out the slightest bit of help from someone knowlegeable... in short... they're too stupid to live.

[billvon 2,435]

>I would like to see the proof that they are required . . .

I can think of at least one fatality where the lack of these inserts was a likely factor, and one situation where a jumper could not cut away due to line twists. He opened his reserve, and fortunately it opened cleanly; that unloaded the main enough to be able to cut it away.

[mbondvegas 0]

I definitely recommend the hard housings in your risers...personally...I like Infinity's risers. I now have them on my Jav. And I'm sure a 135 spectre could spin up plenty hard given the right line over type situation.

- - -
I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.

[mbondvegas 0]

You should look at the new VSE (Infinity) risers more closely. The oversight you describe would take a blind and careless owner on the VSE risers. This is much easier to do on the stock risers on my Jav. The housing entrance on the VSE riser is exposed and not hidden in the cloth.

- - -
I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.

[Hooknswoop 19]

***I don't buy the argument for inserts in the risers. People say they need them so the manufactures (most of them) build them and sell them at a higher price. I would like to see the proof that they are required and not just a bunch of "I had a spinning mal and cut away with no problem".

Mike Turoff did exctly that. He did a series of tests with and without hard housing and had the results published in either Parachutist or Skydiving Magazine. I don't have his resuts in front of me. Maybe he will be kind enough to respond or they might be on here somewhere already. I do remember that the risers without hard housing inserts resulted in much higher pull forces to cutaway fromtwisted riseers. It makes perfect sense, the risers twist togetheer increasing the friction which increases the pull force at the handle.

Here is one examppe from a very experienced jumper:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=341838;search_string=inserts;#341838

Derek

[RMURRAY 1]

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>I would like to see the proof that they are required . . .

I can think of at least one fatality where the lack of these inserts was a likely factor, and one situation where a jumper could not cut away due to line twists. He opened his reserve, and fortunately it opened cleanly; that unloaded the main enough to be able to cut it away.

was the yellow cable in this case cleaned and lubricated as per the manufacturers instructions? Of course we don't know, but I'll bet not. I have been told that the root cause of hard cutaway forces is the friction between loop and cable, this is why we see the clean and lub requirement in owners manuals. I suppose this is why jumpshack risers don't need the hard housings...

rm

[RMURRAY 1]

yes, I remember the article in skydiving and would like to read it again. I think it was called the 2 (or was it 3) bloke test where 2 extra guys hang from a hanging harness with the risers twisted...

rm

[parafredo 0]

I am very surprised that you have racer risers on your Javelin.Where are the original ones...

[RMURRAY 1]

sorry, don't mean to highjack this because the original post is about a Javelin.

I have new jumpshack risers on my racer (your old rig). my point is - what is really the root cause of hard cutaways.

rm

[bofh 0]

We tested cutting away from twisted risers on the ground from the suspended practice rigg. There were no dirt on the risers, but the cable wasn't freshly lubed either. With two hands few people were strong enough to be able to cut-away and this was just from their own weight...

We had no lubrication handy, otherwise we should have tested how much it would have helped.

[klingeme 0]

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People say they need them so the manufactures (most of them) build them and sell them at a higher price.

We (UPT) include them with every rig and Riser order at no extra charge.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[wmw999 2,149]

Dunno if Mike will post, but he took me through a refresher when I got back into skydiving a few years ago. (thanks Mike).

While I was hanging in the cutaway harness he worked that with me. I'm not particularly wimpy, but the difference was very noticeable, and that was just with him spinning me up and getting the risers tight, not hanging on it as would happen if I were spinning with lots of centrifugal force added.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

All great info guys, maybe doing a test would really show me what kind of forces can build up. I'd like to try a hanging test in the loft and see what twists can really do...

Parafredo:Were you asking me why I had racer risers on my Jav? Maybe there was confusion but I don't think they are racer risers. They are just not factory. As for their whereabouts...no idea, bought the rig 2nd hand.

Thanks for the discussion everyone!

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."