VISO's and new jumpers

[chuckakers 370]

Quote

Quote

What aspect of a digital altimeter are you asking about? Not sure what reading manuals has to do with anything

What about having to adjust for a different landing altitude (as happens sometimes at one of the DZ's close to me), or knowing when/when not the damn thing is going to reset itself? We had a demo jump where the pilot was told to fly over Schiphol Airport at 1000ft, which he did, and all neptunes on board reset themselves after a while to this new "ground level" also one time after a car drive: after getting checked in, getting my gear checked, once in the airplane for our first jump my Neptune, Wave and possibly Argus too were all set to -1200ft or something

You make valid points, but I would defer to common sense. If a licensed jumper (theoretically the only kind jumping without Instructor supervision) buys any gear, it is their responsibility to understand its' operation and its' operational limits.

Avoiding commonly accepted and technologically current equipment because it brings new complexities to the process is counterproductive to the goal of developing technology to increase safety and efficiency.

Think of the altimeter question as an AAD question instead. Would you really suggest new jumpers not have an AAD for the same reasons you listed above? After all, the same issues exist on both pieces of gear.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[dragon2 0]

I'm just suggesting you do need to read the manual for these things.

Although we may get a national BSR for when you can use a digital alti, like after your A or 100 jumps, or something like that. We now got a few students just off AFF/Static Line, taught on analog alti's but suddenly jumping Neptunes bought over the internet without much clues how to work them, that they're way more sensitive to damage (ie, the landing skills of these jumpers are not good yet and rolling over a neptune might damage the new expensive toy), you have to pay attention to the batteries, digital has a much greater likelyhood of not working in freefall, stuff like that.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Hellis 0]

Quote

....that they're way more sensitive to damage (ie, the landing skills of these jumpers are not good yet and rolling over a neptune might damage the new expensive toy), you have to pay attention to the batteries, digital has a much greater likelyhood of not working in freefall, stuff like that.

why would they be more sensitive to damage?
if you would damage a digital alti you would know (not working at all/broken screen, etc.), but a analog might seem ok but something might got messed up inside it.

yes you need to pay attention to batteries, 20-30 years ago batteries might have been something you forgot but today i would say its one in a million of all skydivers the dont have a cellphone/camera/cordless phone/you name it where you every day check the batteries on. so this would only be one more device you would check.
no big deal as i see it.

why would a digital have a higher likelyhood of not working in freefall?

im very glad that i have a Viso, some jumps i have been blamed for pulling low, with the viso i can prove that i did not pull low it was just everyone else pulling high.
example: me and two other "newish" jumpers jumped together, we agreed on pullheight 1000 m (3000 feet).
i landed and everyone blamed me for pulling low.
viso showed 750 m deploy (2200 feet), which is "correct", the other two had protracks showing deployment at ~1100 m (3300 feet) meaning they probably pulled at 13-1400 m?
so people at the ground saw them two pulling at what looked like correct altitude and me falling "forever" before finaly pulling.
if it wouldnt have been for the viso i would probably have been grounded.
why is everyone focusing on the "bad" things about digital altis?

[dragon2 0]

I lost count of how many neptunes we've had to return due to damage, never mind how many battery covers I've had to replace over the years, and I've had my neptune tell me its serial number in freefall a few times (li-ion batteries are notorious for failing very soon after the first indication -or not- of a low battery). I've had my neptune tell me I was at -12k on the ground. I've had Parasport Italia digis tell me plain wrong altitudes in freefall (800 ft wrong up to 3k wrong). A friend of mine has a neptunes that reads 300ft wrong fairly constantly. I've had neptunes reset themselves to another ground level unexpectedly, and also NOT reset themselves when I was counting on them to. I've bricked neptunes with firmware updates. I've had battery-eating neptunes, got quite expensive.

Quite a few things that can go wrong in a digital gadget like the neptune is. I don't mind, i also don't mind jumping without an alti. But for someone with just a few jumps, better off to better your chances at having a working alti when you need it.

I'm not against digitals, heck i'm an Alti2 Field Rep, but I am against people jumping digital who are not ready for jumping without a working alti: chances of a digital not working are far greater than analogs not working especially with students who may drop altis, tend to land ON altis, etc. I say stick with a analog for your first 100 jumps or so, cheap and reliable, then later on if you have the money and want a digital, why not.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

why is everyone focusing on the "bad" things about digital altis?

Try to listen! Simple: get an analog altimeter first.

Why? Because that is always working.

[strop45 0]

Quote

why would they be more sensitive to damage?

why would a digital have a higher likelyhood of not working in freefall?

The LCD screen on your viso is very prone to damage. Look at the number of cellphones with broken screens, then imagine what the failure rate would be if they attached to your arm during skydives. You can and will hit the plane/ground/other jumpers with your arm from time to time.

Most electronic faults are due to broken connections, either at high level (wires/connectors) or low level (inside ICs). Subjecting electronic devices to rapid temperature changes increases the failure rate. In addition batteries are a chemical reaction - as you lower the temperature their output decreases - This means that your Viso may be fine in the plane and fail as soon as the cold air hits it.

Mechanical altimeters on the other hand have a very long life and are very reliable. My DZ has student altimeters which have been mistreated for years, but still function well.

I have no problem with anyone using an electronic Alitmeter, I use an altitrack myself, but suggest that its good to have a good knowledge of the limitations and features of the equipment you use.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[Hellis 0]

i dont see analog altis as cheap an reliable.
analogs and digitals cost about the same new.

reliability, well ok, they work.
but i have yet not seen a analog that i feel confident to say what altitude im at when looking at the alti.
usually you can say i was about 300 feet +-50 feet, because they are not accurate enough.
once has my viso shown a wrong altitude, i landed on my knees and had my hands on the ground, viso showed -5, when i stod up again it showed 0.
thats realiability for me.

regarding your batteryeating neptune, did you touch the battery when replacing batterys?
the fat from your fingers can discharge a battery.


since everyone keeps focusing on that someone COULD do something wrong with a digital, you could mess up on analogs too.
forgeting to zeroing the alti before liftoff.
you could by accident when bumping your alti against the plane twist it so it shows a diffrent altitude.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

usually you can say i was about 300 feet +-50 feet, because they are not accurate enough.

Tell me why do you need more accuracy? Do you swoop or jump with accuracy canopy?

Quote

forgeting to zeroing the alti before liftoff.

+/- 50m won;t kill you.

Quote

you could by accident when bumping your alti against the plane twist it so it shows a diffrent altitude.

I don't think that you could miscalibrate your altimeter so easily.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

Quote

So is a VISO/Electronic Alti a good idea for newbies?

The real world is analog. Start with an analog altimeter and use it to calibrate your view of the earth below. Later on you can use the digital device to give you a number instantly, but you can never rely on the instrument as much as you should be able to rely on your vision and your awareness of the analog information the environment gives you.

Billvon is absolutely right when he says, "They're great backups. But you should not need one to safely complete a skydive. If someone _does_ need an altimeter, then it is worthwhile working on the skills needed to judge altitude independently of the altimeter - so that if it ever fails they will not have a problem tracking/deploying at safe altitudes. "

[champu 1]

Non-rechargeable lithium batteries will have no trouble operating over any temperature range that you operate over. And while temperature cycles can stress parts, a 25 C swing is really nothing for most modern electronics.

Other than that I agree, the screens on Visos could stand to be a lot more durable, and no matter what you use it's important to know how to use it.

[CMiller 1]

Quote

>
My primary means of breakoff is generally a signal from the center.

And if the center loses altitude awareness? Then you're fucked since you were looking at them instead of your alti.

I'm sorry, but if someone says on a big way "You break off at 4500", I am keeping track of my own altitude with an altimeter in order to figure out when to break off, not estimating based on the ground or waiting for others to signal me.

Of course during the track, I use time as a means to figure deployment just like you.

I simply do not see how you can be safe without one on a complicated jump with precise break off altitudes, where pulling high or low can get you killed.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

Quote

Quote

>
My primary means of breakoff is generally a signal from the center.

And if the center loses altitude awareness? Then you're fucked since you were looking at them instead of your alti.

I think you missed the point of Billvon's post.

He said, "My primary measure of altitude is visual; I can see if we are significantly too low."

Quote

I'm sorry, but if someone says on a big way "You break off at 4500", I am keeping track of my own altitude with an altimeter in order to figure out when to break off, not estimating based on the ground or waiting for others to signal me.

What if your altimeter is wrong?

[billvon 2,400]

>And if the center loses altitude awareness?

Then I see that I am getting low, and when I get too low to give the base the "benefit of the doubt" I start kicking (if I'm close to the center) or leave (if I am in the first wave.)

>I'm sorry, but if someone says on a big way "You break off at 4500", I am keeping
>track of my own altitude with an altimeter in order to figure out when to break off,
>not estimating based on the ground or waiting for others to signal me.

Of course. But on many bigways the breakoff key is "first wave leaves when we kick" or "first wave leaves on first pullout." This is done to synchronize breakoff waves.

>I simply do not see how you can be safe without one on a complicated jump
>with precise break off altitudes, where pulling high or low can get you killed.

On a large and complex jump, it is more important that the waves leave at the same time than the waves leave at a specific altitude. (Provided they are not so low as to be unsafe, of course.)

To put it another way, if the first wave is supposed to leave around 5000 feet, and people reply purely on their altimeters, some will leave at 5300, some at 4700 - that's about how accurate skydiving altimeters are. In general, it is safer for everyone to leave at 4600 on a signal than to have people leave somewhere between 5300 and 4700.

[LloydDobbler 2]

Quote

Quote

why is everyone focusing on the "bad" things about digital altis?

Try to listen! Simple: get an analog altimeter first.

Why? Because that is always working.

Completely untrue.

As I and many others on this forum have related, analog altimeters do get stuck.

As a student, I had 2 analog altimeters stick while in freefall. One was at 8K, the other was at around 5500', just after I had begun my track. It was only after seeing my instructor pull that I realized I was low.

Analog or digital, there is no foolproof device. It's 6 one way, half-dozen the other. I would personally much rather know in freefall that my altimeter is out rather than realizing it when the ground starts looking really big, so I fly a digital. But that's just my preference.

That being said, I agree that pretty much every skydiver would do well to have an analog altimeter (at least as a backup), so I recommend to students that they get one of those first.

Still, saying that an analog always works - or that it even works better/more often than a digital - is patently incorrect.

Signatures are the new black.

[OlympiaStoica 0]

Quote

Not sure how it works at other DZs or in other countries, but at Elsinore students cannot use a digital altimeter till they get their A. I purchased my alti before I took my FJC so I got the Altitrack as well.

At my DZs (started my training at one and finished at another) students were required to use an analog altimeter. I bought an Altitrack while still in AFF and love it - I got the analog display with the digital features.

After 100+ jumps on it, I got one issue - I don't get very accurate altitude readings below 1000 feet. As I'm still bad at judging my distance to the ground, I'll probably start wearing a Neptune on my other arm, just for landing.

O

[mcordell 2]

I guess I don't see what the problem is with using a digital altimeter. I also don't see any advantage whatsoever in using an analogue. Anyone that starts jumping today grew up with digital watches and should be fully capable of reading numbers on a screen. If not, they shouldn't be jumping at all. I've never jumped an analogue and bought my viso before taking my first jump course.

When my father first started sport jumping using old military surplus rounds, he didn't even have an altimeter. The students at his drop zone jumped without them and he managed to survive. I think often times people are just afraid of change. He tells me when squares first came out there was a requirement at his drop zone that you had to have a certain number of jumps before you could use one because they were dangerous.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[Remster 24]

I've seen and experienced a lot more (factor of 20) issues with electronic alti's as compared to mechanical ones. I can do fine if my Neptune decides to stop working on the way up. Not sure a student or new jumper would.

Remster

[danielcroft 2]

a digital altimeter has more failure modes and more complex interpretation required - what do the numbers mean as opposed to a color coded visual on most mechanical altimeters. Also, a digital altimeter, due to the LCD screen can't be read easily at all angles.

For the record, I have a neptune but will be adding a mechanical alti (replacement for stolen one).

[faulknerwn 36]

Digital's in general or Neptunes? As long as I remember to turn my Viso on at the beginning of the day, I've had 0 issues in 2000 jump. As long as my Digitude turned on in the ground, I had 0 issues with it. Neptunes on the other hand, I've seen lots of issues with in freefall. One tandem master was happy I wore a chest mount when his quit in the middle of a skydive.

I've seen a LOT of issues with neptunes, but zero with Visos or the old Digitudes as long as they turned on on the ground.

Our student Galaxies however, have a regular issue with "sticking." They always read 500 feet behind the digitals, and I've witnessed (even reading the student's altimeter) the altimeter sticking for quite a while and then jumping a thousand plus feet...

[Will_Evo 0]

I'm with you Wendy, I love my Viso :) don't really have any reason as of yet to go with anything different.


-Evo

Zoo Crew

[Travman 6]

Personally I wouldn't let a newbie use a digital if I was an instructor.
The first jump I did with a viso, I checked it on the ride up, checked it before exit. Then after deployment I knew I was a far way from the DZ, so looked at my alti to see the boot up screen. So picked a paddock and landed. I probably had about 250 jumps at the time. I know of quite a few incidents where low time jumpers (and sometimes experienced) have had indecision about trying to make it back or landing off, having no alti may complicate such a decision further.
Also I think digitals give extra distraction on the ride up. How fast are we climbing? Whats the time? How long has this hold been? Will that low battery indicator last one more jump?
Personally I can't see why a newbie would need a digital. I still keep my analog in my gear bag in case my Neptune runs out of battery or otherwise fails.

[faulknerwn 36]

I think its what you're used to. Its SO much easier for me to read a digital than an analog. On the rare occasions I use an analog, every time I look at it I have to contemplate for a couple of seconds what altitude it is while its obvious with a digital. But I grew up with 100% digital clocks and have to think to read an analog clock as well..

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Quote

I think its what you're used to. Its SO much easier for me to read a digital than an analog. On the rare occasions I use an analog, every time I look at it I have to contemplate for a couple of seconds what altitude it is while its obvious with a digital. But I grew up with 100% digital clocks and have to think to read an analog clock as well..

That's kind of funny.

Back in the 80's, when "glass cockpits"(display screens for instrument panels) were just starting, there was a lot of study on what to make the "gauges" on the display look like. Bar, Needle and dial, digital display and a couple others.

The studies showed that pilots would read and react fastest to the old style, analog needle and dial gauge. Even though it was a display screen, the *readouts were shown as "old style" gauges.
The shrinks analyzing the data said something to the effect of "you have to read and comprehend a digital display (number), but you know where the needle is supposed to be pointing under a given situation, and you don't have to actally read the number" or some such mumbo jumbo.

I've always wondered if it was because that style was actually better, or because the pilots had that sort of display ingrained into their head.

Personally, I'm analog. My watch has hands, my altimiter has a needle.
I'm more inclined to have students use mechanical ones, just because there is less to go wrong with them. The failure rate may be similar, but at least they won't ever have dead batteries.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Remster 24]

Quote

I'm with you Wendy, I love my Viso :) don't really have any reason as of yet to go with anything different.


-Evo

My Wife's Viso decided to die on the way to altitude last week. She changed the battery, it worked again, and then died again on the way up of the next jump. Turned out to be a contact that was partially damaged somehow.

I really think that the electronics have more inherent failure points and I wouldnt recommend one to a new jumper until they would feel confident jumping without any altimeter.

Remster

[Will_Evo 0]

I mean yeah that would def suck, good thing L&B has awesome customer service lol. Anyways, as long as someone has a plan for if the digital goes out(as should any jumper if their altimeter goes out) they should be fine. If my digital goes out in the middle of a jump, my procedure is to back off what I am doing, wave off to the group, do a barrel roll, and pull. As long as you are keeping good altitude awareness, their should be no problem, and for landing, I dont look at my altimeter after about 300 ft so it doesn't matter.
-Evo

Zoo Crew