kkeenan 13 #1 August 28, 2006 Copied from PIA Rigger's Forum. I have no further info. ======================= 8/26/2006 Hi I would like to inform you that today a VIGIL (Student mode) fired on the ground. The rig was in a static position on the ground. A.A.D the mfg. of the Vigil was informed. Reasons for the misfiring are unknown at this point of time. The unit will be shipped back to the mfg. for investigation. Safe Rigging !!!_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vectracide 0 #2 August 28, 2006 All these vigil misfires......on the ground, in the air, in the plane, during tandem decents... Makes you wonder when the first person is going to die at the hands of this device. Or worse yet, a plane load of people when the PC gets sucked out the door and rips the tail off..... I'd rather have nothing in my rig as compared to this little jewel. ------------------------------ Controlled and Deliberate..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #3 August 28, 2006 Is anyone even keep count of all these issues? I lost count at like 4 misfires reported on here... Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #4 August 28, 2006 Are we re-reporting any of these issues? Since we have several sources of info now we could be doubleing the amount of misfires by reporting them twice. We have had 6 on our team for 3 years with out issue. C-130 jumps, C-17 Jumps, Tandem, Student Staticline and AFF rigs, Up-jumper/Instructor rigs (135 zippy canopies) and Demonstrator Rigs. We jump from C-130's, C-17's, CH-47's, UH-60's and all known Jump aircraft in the US Skydiving Arena. Our rigs have around 200 jumps each (6 set ups in all) and we have had no issue. IS there food for thought that we may be doing some thing wrong in the handling? (I discount the World Team issue for the "Normal" weekend skydiver)An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #5 August 28, 2006 My count in 2006 is: Perris Jet at WFFC Tandem fire at Connecticut Parachutists reported on 8/14/06 Vigil ground fire at Interlaken in Switzerland in July 06 Vigil ground fire at Skydive Weston in July 06 PDF statement on it Said statement also references a ground fire this summer in France.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #6 August 28, 2006 Cool, I am sure that as new as the system is the reporting to the manufacturer is probably accurate.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #7 August 28, 2006 QuoteAre we re-reporting any of these issues? This one was reported on PIA riggers site on 23 Aug. by a rigger in Israel.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #8 August 28, 2006 Thanks Mojo and Phree. I asked since it happens in my office all the time. I.E. I was told about the Tandem Fatality in Ohio while in Ohio (1) and then my first day back an e-mail (2) that claimed to be the "first to know", 2 safety guys from the Post Safty office called (3,4) and all these have to be logged in and then I get to sift it all out and combine it and then dismiss it as it did not involve any Military Jumpers or our post. This is just the example don't spin the thread off topic any further (yeah I am guilty here). I would like to know more about the ground fires in student rigs (yes?), as we have six and they are all (but 2) currently doing student work.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #9 August 28, 2006 Add these ones to the list. July 04/06 A van left Alberta Skydivers in Beiseker Alberta (elevation 3026') carrying nine rigs with armed Vigils in STUDENT mode. The route took the vehicle through Banff National Park and Kicking Horse Pass (Max altitude 5476') and then steeply down to the town of Golden BC (alt ~2500'). While traveling down the canyon, but at construction zone speeds, the driver heard one unit fire. She pulled over and watched two more units fire while at rest. The other units were deactivated while at rest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #10 August 28, 2006 I recieved a report of a misfire on a student rig in the Southeast US this summer too. I guess the student was under a good canopy and at 3500 feet it fired and they were able to safely land the biplane. So thats 3 more in Canada and another in the US this summer.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #11 August 29, 2006 I've only seen one occurance of it, but it was damn well impressive - the 5 Vigils that fired inside the C-130 at the World Team jumps in Thailand. I was surprised to learn later that there were only five, because it seemed like there were reserve pilot chutes flying everywhere. There were no doors open or anything, and they got them under control quick enough. But jeez - some folks are high-strung enough on some dives without wierd shit like that going on. I personally think that the Vigil should have had much more "Beta" testing before being sold full-out. I'm sure that the bugs will be worked out. Till then, I'll carry use the other brand. Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #12 August 29, 2006 QuoteI personally think that the Vigil should have had much more "Beta" testing before being sold full-out. I'm sure that the bugs will be worked out. Till then, I'll carry use the other brand. When they were looking for people to do “Beta” testing I sent in my name and a short resume of my testing history. They said sure, but I would have to buy the unit. They would give me a discount but I said thanks but no thanks. People involved in test work do not buy the test item they test it. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #13 August 29, 2006 That's great. Maybe I should apply for a discount on future purchases for having "tested" their equipment earlier this year. It worked. I'll post the video to skydivemovies.com tomorrow."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #14 August 29, 2006 Quote People involved in test work do not buy the test item they test it. That's my point. The concept of having your first customers do the final product testing is a great money-saving strategy, as long as the product is reasonably bug-free. I'd say the Vigil guys are kind of close to the edge, however. With a product in an application like this, it's tough to keep customers after too many "funny" incidents. Many younger mainstream jumpers prefer technology that's at least several minutes newer, plus, they've grown up with and are more forgiving of "death by software". Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivepete 0 #15 August 31, 2006 QuoteMakes you wonder when the first person is going to die at the hands of this device. Maybe it already did: http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/196.shtml QuoteDuring a Solo jump the jumper pulled their main while under 1500 feet. While their main was opening her AAD fired and opened the reserve. The reserve entanged with the main. The jumper cut the main away and was found with both handles pulled. Pete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #16 August 31, 2006 QuoteMaybe it already did: Quote During a Solo jump the jumper pulled their main while under 1500 feet. While their main was opening her AAD fired and opened the reserve. The reserve entangled with the main. The jumper cut the main away and was found with both handles pulled. The example you cite is an argument against using AADs in general, because the risk of two-out increases when someone pulls low, and some two-out situations are fatal. From the information provided, my guess is that a Student Cypres (and possibly an Expert Cypres) would also have fired in a similar situation. I don't think you can use this incident to indict Vigil. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #17 September 1, 2006 STATEMENT_ACTIVATION.doc Here is the official answer from AAD (aka. the Vigil factory). Apparently temperature variations can confuse Vigils - on the ground - think that they are changing altitude rapidly. AAD promises us an updated version of Vigil by the end of 2006. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigger_john 0 #18 September 1, 2006 Statement in Regard to the Recent Vigil Activations and More_________________________________________ Nullius in Verba Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #19 September 1, 2006 QuoteStatement in Regard to the Recent Vigil Activations and More ...are you kidding me? The answer to keeping your vigil from misfiring is to not let it sit in the sun on a hot day? That sounds scary to me.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigger_john 0 #20 September 1, 2006 Quote Quote...are you kidding me? The answer to keeping your vigil from misfiring is to not let it sit in the sun on a hot day? That sounds scary to me. No I'm just posting the link. For the record I don't think A.A.D. are kidding you either. I just had a glance through the users manual and I couldn't see any operational parameters set out in regards to tempreture. I'm sure Airtec have those parameters in the cypres manual but I haven't looked._________________________________________ Nullius in Verba Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #21 September 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteStatement in Regard to the Recent Vigil Activations and More ...are you kidding me? The answer to keeping your vigil from misfiring is to not let it sit in the sun on a hot day? That sounds scary to me. What a bunch of bullshit in that explanation. Maybe it really loses its meaning in the translation. Hey, no problem! Just turn on/off the unit before/after each jump so it doesn't have so much time to heat up internally. A new Vigil will be available later in the year, hooray! Maybe they'll consider having a min altitude that must be reached before the thing will arm itself, or a no fire zone when you get close enough to the ground - those seem like good ideas, eh?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #22 September 1, 2006 >>A van left Alberta Skydivers in Beiseker Alberta (elevation 3026') carrying nine rigs with armed Vigils<< Gee, those guys should know not to go over hill & dale with any of these gizmos armed. They sit there wondering what the hell you are doing . . . ! NicKD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #23 September 1, 2006 How are they going to address the 5000 units in the field that a subject to this issue? This is where Airtec's maintence is good since the issue can be addressed when the unit is sent back in for its maintence. I still do not see how this would cause the Tandem fire or the Student fire at 3500 feet.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #24 September 1, 2006 QuoteHow are they going to address the 5000 units in the field that a subject to this issue? This is where Airtec's maintence is good since the issue can be addressed when the unit is sent back in for its maintence. Just because the Vigil has no scheduled maintenance does not prevent owners from sending it in for maintenance anyway. As a Vigil owner, I have an expectation that I will be able to do that to ensure that my unit (that still has most of its useful life left) will be able to be brought up to the standards of the "improved" unit when it comes out. If that's not the case, I'll be a very unhappy customer. Till then I'm just glad I don't normally jump in places with extreme temperature swings."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #25 September 2, 2006 QuoteI'm just glad I don't normally jump in places with extreme temperature swings. The note from Vigil does not say that the ambient environment temp change was the cause. I read it to say that the unit heated up on its own (power is dissipated in all electronics). No problem, just remember to turn it off between jumps.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
