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kkeenan

Another Vigil Anomaly

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>>A van left Alberta Skydivers in Beiseker Alberta (elevation 3026') carrying nine rigs with armed Vigils<<

Gee, those guys should know not to go over hill & dale with any of these gizmos armed. They sit there wondering what the hell you are doing . . . !



Yep! we should have. In the back of my head I knew that van being loaded needed my attention, but I had fifty-four clients that needed herding more.
The driver never thought about it.

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I'm just glad I don't normally jump in places with extreme temperature swings.



The note from Vigil does not say that the ambient environment temp change was the cause. I read it to say that the unit heated up on its own (power is dissipated in all electronics). No problem, just remember to turn it off between jumps.:D



Yeah, I read it differently and I'm still a bit confused as to whether your interpretation or mine is correct (or some third interpretation altogether). Not exactly the best-worded statement.[:/]
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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I think it is open to interpretation what they mean.

"...due to significant environmental temperature changes (change more than 30 deg C..."

I wouldn't be too sure that the engineer that wrote this "statement in regard to..." is using the term "environmental" to mean the ambient condition, or the condition inside the unit on the circuit board.

Anyway, there is nothing to indicate that the rigs in question were exposed to an unusual set of conditions. Vigil's "statement" does nothing to back up their claim that "exceptional circumstances" existed.

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Don't leave your rig out in the sun on a very hot day



What the hell crap is that? They brag about their sophisticated device, and how smart their engineers were...?

The Vigil sure looks really awesome and rugged, and their logo is very cool. :)
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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Those must've been some REALLY steep hills to confuse the ADD into thinking it was in freefall....



Yeah, that plus was the car loosing over 115 feet per second in altitude :S...



That was my point, yes.... I figured ppl would pick up on it...
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Yeah, that plus was the car loosing over 115 feet per second in altitude [Crazy]...

That was my point, yes.... I figured ppl would pick up on it...



Do either of you know what the vertical speed should be for Vigil activation in student mode?

Mark

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Yeah, that plus was the car loosing over 115 feet per second in altitude [Crazy]...

That was my point, yes.... I figured ppl would pick up on it...



Do either of you know what the vertical speed should be for Vigil activation in student mode?

Mark



Fire at 1040 feet if going faster than 45 mph.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Fire at 1040 feet if going faster than 45 mph.



Well, I figured you would know!;) I had the manual open when I posed the question, because 115 fps seemed a little high.

I'll agree that it's hard to get a road-bound automobile into a descent with a 45 mph vertical component.

Mark

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Fire at 1040 feet if going faster than 45 mph.



Well, I figured you would know!;) I had the manual open when I posed the question, because 115 fps seemed a little high.

I'll agree that it's hard to get a road-bound automobile into a descent with a 45 mph vertical component.

Mark



45 mph is 66 fps and a Pro is 78 mph which gives the 115 fps the same as a Tandem.:)
Going straight down at 45 mph would be kind of neat. :)
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Can anyone do the math on how much tempature effects Pressure? I know a vigil is supposed to read both Temp and pressure to figure out where it is. Tempature does have a pretty large effect on pressure. Take 2 pressure readings at the ground, one at 75F and one at 130F, what is the difference the Vigil sees?

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the simplest relationship is the Ideal Gas Law, which says that for a fixed amount of gas:
Pressure x Volume = Constant x Temperature

temperature needs to be in Kelvin, not C or F. But the atmosphere is more complex than this would indicate...

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

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>Can anyone do the math on how much tempature effects Pressure?

If you just heat a room, the pressure remains exactly the same (unless the room is airtight, which is very rare.) However, most AAD's use silicon pressure sensors, and silicon sensors are dependent partially on temperatures. Many have built-in temperature sensors that the processor can use to compensate for the temperature dependency, and others have compensation integrated into the device.

>Take 2 pressure readings at the ground, one at 75F and one at
>130F, what is the difference the Vigil sees?

An accurate mechanical altimeter, or properly compensated digital sensor, will not see a change.

An uncompensated sensor could see a 7% change in fullscale output during that temperature change. At sea level, that means a change of about 1.1 PSI, or about 2000 feet. (assuming a 15psig sensor.)

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For the record I don't think A.A.D. are kidding you either. I just had a glance through the users manual and I couldn't see any operational parameters set out in regards to tempreture. I'm sure Airtec have those parameters in the cypres manual but I haven't looked.



http://www.cypres2.com/userguide/CYPRES_2_users_guide_english.pdf Page 36

Storage temperature: +71° to -25° Celsius
Working temperature: +63° to -20° Celsius *
* These temperature limits do not mean the outside (ambient) temperatures but rather temperatures
inside the processing unit. Therefore, these limits won't have any meaning until the processing unit
itself has reached the temperatures in question. In actual fact, these limits will rarely be reached due
to the mandatory location of the CYPRES in the reserve container, and the insulating properties of
the processing unit pouch and parachute canopies.

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For the record I don't think A.A.D. are kidding you either. I just had a glance through the users manual and I couldn't see any operational parameters set out in regards to tempreture. I'm sure Airtec have those parameters in the cypres manual but I haven't looked.



http://www.cypres2.com/userguide/CYPRES_2_users_guide_english.pdf Page 36

Storage temperature: +71° to -25° Celsius
Working temperature: +63° to -20° Celsius *
* These temperature limits do not mean the outside (ambient) temperatures but rather temperatures
inside the processing unit. Therefore, these limits won't have any meaning until the processing unit
itself has reached the temperatures in question. In actual fact, these limits will rarely be reached due
to the mandatory location of the CYPRES in the reserve container, and the insulating properties of
the processing unit pouch and parachute canopies.



Quite right, there is a bunch of insulation, so a rig might have to be in a hot environment for a few hours for the Vigil to get hot enough to experience what Vigil considers rare/extreme/whatever.

I wonder what Vigil did in the way of qualification testing. They should have put these things through a temp/vib/whatever profile more severe than in a car on a hot summer day in England. It can kill a kid or dog, but shouldn't be hot enough to kill an AAD.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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>
An uncompensated sensor could see a 7% change in fullscale output during that temperature change. At sea level, that means a change of about 1.1 PSI, or about 2000 feet. (assuming a 15psig sensor.)



I wonder if there is any chance that the same fireing parameter that caused the 4 vigil's to fire on the 400 way could be triggered by tempature changes. I am thinking that if a unit is turned on at 130F and then is cooled to 75F via an AC unit, the unit senses it is at 2000 feet underground. As I recall, the 400 way fires was because the pressure in the airplane reached a point that would have been underground?

Possible?

If so, it does seem like a problem that can be avoided by following some simple procedures. Just in case, I've been tracking the tempature of my vigil (just a rough mental track). If it is at all warm in my car, I make sure to let my rig sit in an AC room for as long as I can before I turn it on.

It would just be nice to confrim what is going on so we know what excactly to avoid.

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Makes you wonder when the first person is going to die at the hands of this device. Or worse yet, a plane load of people when the PC gets sucked out the door and rips the tail off.....


------------------------------------------------------------ Another great reason to leave the door closed till atleast 1,000ft agl !!! All seatbelts off prior to opening the door.

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As I recall, the 400 way fires was because the pressure in the airplane reached a point that would have been underground?


Wrong, at least according to vigil. According the units fired because the recorded pressure change was consistend with freefall below a assumed 850 feet.
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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Wrong, at least according to vigil.

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It’s this part of your statement that I am uncomfortable with. Just my personal opinion but I think Vigil has some major issues that need to be dealt with before they can expect any creditability as a viable alternative to Air Tec.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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That's why i specificly included it. BTW I have the same strong reservation against Airtec, they 2 have little creditability regarding their statement (a.o. reported to have checked a AAD, which wasn't even sent to them)
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

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