Brutally Hard Openings - Need Advice!!!

[freeasabird 0]

Sorry to bring up an old subject. Checked all old posts on this subject - but would like some more up to date info/advice.

Yesterday I had a SLAMMER opening that just about knocked me out! Watched my video after and estimate the time from snatch to open canopy was half a second. Back and neck are sore today and have persistent headache. Have had several hard openings (not quite as bad) in the recent past - under two different canopies (Stiletto 120 and Katana 120 loaded at 1.7 to 1). The rate of relatively hard openings I have been experiencing is about 1 out of every 4 jumps. All else considered I am assuming my bad openings are being caused by my packing and/or line stowing method. I suspect line dump occurred on this particualr jump since it was so abrubt and viloent. Just want to see what others' opinions are.

The following is all the information/parameters that I think may affect my openings:

EQUIPMENT
Container: Micron
Main: Stiletto 120 (550 Micoline - new) & Katana 120 (demo - HMA lines)
Slider: standard(?)-size ZP installed recently by PD when relined
Pilot chute: 24" ZP

DEPLOYMENT
Airspeed: 120-ish (slow, flat tracks then box for approx. 3 seconds)
Altitude: 3500' MSL
Air temp.: 60 to 80 degrees
Body position: symmetrical - look up immediately after throw out in slightly chest up position

PACKING
Method: "Roll-pack" or "Pro-pack" (same opening results either way)
Slider: quarter evenly then pull front out approx. 2" before rolling tail
Nose: do nothing
Tail: Roll tail tightly around slider/lines (3 or 4 rolls) then roll rest of tail tightly around canopy (5 or 6 rolls) without rolling any of the nose material with tail
Bagging: recheck slider is up to stops - then fill bag to corners - proper size bag used
Line stow type: rubber bands (one large for first lock - then small for remaining stows)
Line stowing method: single wrap for first three locking stows (2" to 2.5" bites) - then typically double wraps for last locking stow and subsequent 3 stows (1" to 1.5" bites) - then single wrap for last stow (2.5" to 3" bite).
Excess lines: 15" to 20"

The only one of the above parameters that changes is my line stow method. Typically when I put new rubber bands on, they are tight enough to keep the lines using single wraps with the recommended 8 to 12 pounds of force being required to pull them off the bag. But after only a few jumps, the rubber bands stretch to the point that they don't even fit snugly around the lines - which is when I will begin to double wrap them. When I double wrap, I use different line stow lengths (1" to 1.5") depending on where they are in the sequence. If they are close to the last stow, I double wrap about an inch. If they are closer to the first stow, I double wrap about 1.5". The first 3 stows that I single wrap all seem to stay tight enough to adequately keep the lines (regardless of how much they stretch). The last stow I always single wrap (regardless how loose it is) since it is the first one to release and I would think would be the most critical one to prevent baglock.

After this particular jump yesterday, I inspected the rubber bands and none of them had broken. None appeared to even have partially split.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I would like to correct this situation before I break my neck/back or worse yet, kill myself!

Thanks!

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[mdrejhon 8]

Very important: How old are the lines? How old are the steering lines? Were they both replaced simultaneously?

I do not have as many jumps as you do but I certainly noticed somewhat of an improvement in my openings when I got my my steering lines replaced. (My landings were another story; but I later learned that the start of flare band does NOT necessarily correspond with stops -- always check for tail deflection.) The old steering lines were well-shrunk which meant the flare band started beyond the top of the stops (i.e. I was in very slight brakes at what should be full glide). As a result, my openings were 'in brakes', which, anecdotally, makes an opening more abrupt at least on Sabres. It's recommended the flare band starts at least a bit below the stops, so that your openings aren't 'in brakes'.

I have heard total line replacement, also helped, because assymetric line shrinkages can cause airfoil differences that accelerate an opening. Inflation dynamics are a tricky thing to predict...

Important Note: Converse can happen. It can sometimes happen that line replacement might make an opening worse. (i.e. the old lines were somehow at more well-optimized lengths or more elastic; it can happen - quality of job, less elastic lines, etc.)

Not an expert on subject matter. But this important variable was left out!

My Sabre opens me pretty gentle yet fast enough (500-600 into saddle from letting go of hackey). I don't even notice the openings anymore; it's pretty gentle while not being snivelly. Goldilocks for me. Only occasionally I've had minor spankers and they are only lower-case "ouch" spankers that doesn't bruise me. Only one in the last 50 jumps. I also trust my own packjobs more than the average packer (That said: I've packed my own *specific* rig more than 100 times now and have settled into a routine I trust.)

A good line replacement by a factory approved rigger with some elastic lines, can't hurt to try. (And a bigger slider, within reason).

(You riggers and experts, reading this message, can probably confirm or make corrections to my suggestion.)

[base935 0]

Ummmm, have your PDs ever opened well? Sabres, Stilettos, Katanas, Vengences, Velocities, etc?

If you want good openings, PD isn't the answer. And get over the idea that PD is the only company that is making good canopies...

You should ask some of the camera flyers at your dz. They can tell you all about hard/soft openings, and my guess is that you'll trust their opinion more than someone on the internet...

Gravity Research Institute

[freeasabird 0]

I had all lines replaced by PD 20 jumps ago. I set brakes 1" longer than factory spec (from toggle to "eye" in steering line).

Hard openings have been consistent on canopy with new lines, old lines, and other canopies as well (i.e. Katana with HMA lines). I have performed all of my own pack jobs.

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[flyhy 0]

To try: When you roll up the tail edge (b4 putting it on the ground), roll the seams up really really tight

[gmac324 0]

Maybe you line stows are just a little small. 1 inch seems awfull short.

I could see how that might shift about a little when you close the container.

[freakyrat 1]

I had two rough openings on my Katana 120 with HMA lines loaded at 1.6 and deployed out of a Mirage G4 with the split bag. I use a large rubber band for the first locking stow and PD's small rubber bands for the rest of the stows. My last opening was picture perfect. Both rough openings were after tracks off RW dives. On one of the openings the canopy turned a fast 360. I only have six jumps on the canopy now. Neither of these two openings hurt.

What I heard now about the Katana is to look up after you pitch to stand up under the canopy and keep your harness even. Also do no roll the tail to much as I heard this is what causes the Katana to do the 360 turn on opening. I don't know if any of this is true but on my last opening I immediately looked up after I pitched my pilot chute and did not try to steer the opening with the risers and I must say the opening was very slow staged and dead on heading and it couldn't be any better. Try some of this and see if it works.

I forgot to add I have about 1000 jumps on Stilettos, 700 on a 135 and about 300 on my 120 neither have opened hard. Sabres were a different story. I made a RW jump in Beaumont TX some time ago when I jumped a 135 Sabre 1 using another type of stow band ( not rubber bands)and it opened so hard it darn near cut my lower back in half. I saw the video that someone took of the opening and it cleary showed line dump. I was using something other than the small rubber bands at the time to stow the lines. After this experience I never went back to using these type stows. My opinion only, I would make your stows a little longer.

Chris

[blitzkrieg 0]

IMO, i don't believe it's your stows whatsoever.
i've put hundreds of jumps on a ST120 and i always propacked it and would leave the nose where it hangs... i.e. not push it in and def not pull it out. than about 4 rolls or folds in the tail to keep it together. that's it. never had more than a couple brisk openings on it.

more over, i agree with 935... i ditched PD for alternatively much softer and consistent openings. if i was sponsored, it would be one thing... but as it stands, i like my neck functional!

[Cloudi 0]

I agree with gmac324 that the line stows seem a bit short (especially for small, slippery HMA). PD recommends stows that are 2 1/2 to 3". http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/hrdopn.pdf

Personally, I prefer large rubber bands, double stowed on all of my stows. Like you mentioned, small ones can stretch out and become loose. Large one's, double stowed, will need replaced from wear or will break long before they become loose. They're also much easier to work with.
You might also check that pc. I've heard of several people who replaced their worn out pc's with new ZP and quickly switched back to F-111 type after a few "brisk" openings on their canopies.

I hope you get it sorted out!

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[tbrown 26]

More of a question, as I've never jumped a Stiletto or a Katana, but isn't it a fairly regular practice to stuff the nose of a Stiletto ? At least that's what I've heard a lot of people say.

Just asking, as your packing method states that you don't do anything special with your nose. Something's definitely up, one in four hard openings can take the fun right out of jumping.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Martini 0]

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I had all lines replaced by PD 20 jumps ago. I set brakes 1" longer than factory spec (from toggle to "eye" in steering line).

That setting doesn't have anything to do with the opening. Changing the length from the eye to the cascade is the brake setting control. Talk to a rigger, preferably one who base jumps.

What will help in a big way is pulling the slider out in front of the nose a lot more. 2" is an invitation to a slammer. Try more like 6" and spread the slider out in front of the nose so it fills with air quickly.

Also rolling the nose helps tame fast openers.

How you stow your lines has only a small effect on opening quality.

Get help from a rigger or a very good packer. It's no wonder you're getting slammed, you aren't using even the most basic methods of controlling your openings.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[bob.dino 0]

Step one: find out if the problem is your packing or your gear. Get someone else to pack for you for a weekend or two. If there are no slammers, it's probably your packing technique.

[br0k3n 0]

Quote

More of a question, as I've never jumped a Stiletto or a Katana, but isn't it a fairly regular practice to stuff the nose of a Stiletto ? At least that's what I've heard a lot of people say.

Just asking, as your packing method states that you don't do anything special with your nose. Something's definitely up, one in four hard openings can take the fun right out of jumping.

I pack my stiletto 107 without doing anything with the nose, and the openings (so far) have been sweet...

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[mark 102]

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Step one: find out if the problem is your packing or your gear. Get someone else to pack for you for a weekend or two. If there are no slammers, it's probably your packing technique.

The other half of Step One is for you to pack for someone who is known to have nice openings.

The problem might also be something you are doing at pull time.
-- Try jumping someone else's gear & pack job;
-- Get someone else to jump your gear & pack job.

The problem might be the canopy, although since you report hard openings with several different canopies, I'd think this would be unlikely.

The general approach should be to test and eliminate broad categories of possible problems before trying "solutions" that may or may not be appropriate. (If the "Twenty Questions" category is "Animal," how good is a strategy that starts by guessing "aardvark?")

Mark

[freeasabird 0]

Thanks all for the advice.

I will have one of our very experienced packers pack my chute a few times and see what happens. I'll also jump someone else's rig to see if my body position is a possible cause.

One piece of information I failed to include in my orginial post is I have used the same roll pack method for the past 400+ jumps on a Sabre 170, a Stiletto 150, and a Sabre2 135...and only had maybe 3 or 4 hard openings. My packing method has not ever changed. The only things that have really changed is my line stow method (due to troubles getting the rubberbands to provide enough grip the smaller 550 microlines) - and my equipment

Update: This past weekend I made a couple of jumps on my ST120 and used bigger bites on my line stows (2 to 2.5 inches). Although I did not have any slammers, they were still very "brisk" openings. I paid close attention to my canopy as it opened (and had my video to review as well). On just about every opening, the canopy started out in a nice, typical-looking snivel (snivelling canopy on heading and slider still all the way up). But after only about two seconds of snivelling, the slider would come all the way down very fast (easily under a half second) resulting in a substantial jolt during the last phase of opening. After this last phase "jolt", it appeared that the canopy would be "pulsing" up and down for a couple of seconds (presumably from the force of this last phase of the opening? - never noticed this before when I used to have "normal" openings). Also at the same time, the center 5 or 7 cells of the nose would be partially tucked under the front of the canopy.

Not sure what all of the above means. But if this better helps describe what is going on, then maybe someone might be able to offer more advice.

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[bob.dino 0]

Quote

Quote

Step one: find out if the problem is your packing or your gear. Get someone else to pack for you for a weekend or two. If there are no slammers, it's probably your packing technique.

The other half of Step One is for you to pack for someone who is known to have nice openings.

"Hi, I'm having brutally hard openings and I'm trying to find out if it's my packing. Can I pack for you?"

[mark 102]

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"Hi, I'm having brutally hard openings and I'm trying to find out if it's my packing. Can I pack for you?"

Okay, so it won't be easy. How about, "Hi, I'm trying to figure out what's going on with my openings. Can I pack for you (while you watch)?"

Mark

[Freeflysmiley 2]

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The last stow I always single wrap (regardless how loose it is) since it is the first one to release and I would think would be the most critical one to prevent baglock.

Don't quote me on this, but although your correct, having a real lose band/stow, even though its the first one, could mean lines becoming unstowed as the bag leaves, and potentially the bag could turn through the lines causing a malfunction. I think its unlikely that a regular band on a double stow will cause a bag lock however.

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Practise the 6 P's!
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[phoenixlpr 0]

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Don't quote me on this, but although your correct, having a real lose band/stow, even though its the first one, could mean lines becoming unstowed as the bag leaves, and potentially the bag could turn through the lines causing a malfunction. I think its unlikely that a regular band on a double stow will cause a bag lock however.

Do you know how many line stows a reserve has?
2 locking only.

[packerboy 3]

All openings are "in brakes", that's why you set the brakes.

Personally I don't jump those canopies, but I have learned through being a packer that rolling the nose or pushing it in on a Stiletto greatly increases the chance of it becoming a "Spinetto" upon opening.

If you are having brutal hard openings on a Katana, you should have a professional watch you pack. You can pack those like crap and they still have beautiful openings. So I've heard... I've only jumped it a few times, and I couldn't believe how soft the openings were... didn't feel any force at all. And when I pack for myself... I pack like shit, I won't lie. Different when I pack for someone else.. but I have packed a few pretty damn messy ones on the tiny brand new Katana's and have had nothing but good reports come back.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[RogerRamjet 0]

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Update: This past weekend I made a couple of jumps on my ST120 and used bigger bites on my line stows (2 to 2.5 inches). Although I did not have any slammers, they were still very "brisk" openings. I paid close attention to my canopy as it opened (and had my video to review as well). On just about every opening, the canopy started out in a nice, typical-looking snivel (snivelling canopy on heading and slider still all the way up). But after only about two seconds of snivelling, the slider would come all the way down very fast (easily under a half second) resulting in a substantial jolt during the last phase of opening. After this last phase "jolt", it appeared that the canopy would be "pulsing" up and down for a couple of seconds (presumably from the force of this last phase of the opening? - never noticed this before when I used to have "normal" openings). Also at the same time, the center 5 or 7 cells of the nose would be partially tucked under the front of the canopy.

Not sure what all of the above means. But if this better helps describe what is going on, then maybe someone might be able to offer more advice.

Are you certain the slider is the correct size for your canopy? I have seen posts where people with this problem have gotten a new (larger) slider from PD and it solved the problem....

I believe I would contact them with the above description and see what they say. It is entirely possible they installed an out of spec slider. You might measure it so you can have that info for them.

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Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[skybum1 0]

Very interesting indeed. And at which dz were you having these hard openings?

[packerboy 3]

Read Scott Miller's column on the main page. It might help.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[freeasabird 0]

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Very interesting indeed. And at which dz were you having these hard openings?

Most of my hard openings occurred at the North Pole Skydiving Club, located about 7 miles south of Santa's place. At the time, I was jumping with Rudolph the Red-nose Freeflying Reindeer. Looking back, I should have had one of Santa's little elves pack for me - especially considering they were only charging either $2 or a candy cane per pack job.

Hi Gentry.

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[Cloudi 0]

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Read Scott Miller's column on the main page. It might help.

Many of the suggestions included in that article helped my openings tremendously!

I was spoiled from my larger, lightly loaded Spectre and also had a terrible habit of staring up at my openings (they are just so darned pretty!). Downsizing, then switching to a more responsive canopy let me know right away just how bad my body position had become and how much work I had ahead of me. I had obviously been getting away with all sorts of crap that the smaller, more responsive Sabre2 just wasn't going to put up with. Hey, I wanted a more responsive canopy & I got it!

Keeping my knees together and looking straight ahead (using mostly my peripheral vision to check for traffic) during the snivel and inflation worked wonders for me. It makes me wonder just how many others who are having the occasional weird opening could benefit from this? Until I downsized and then switched canopies, I thought my body position was pretty good. Now I know better and by making some small adjustments, my openings have greatly improved and I'm more in control of how my canopy opens.

...of course, my packing still sucks! I'm working on it and getting better, though. It appears the forgiving nature of my Spectre was both a blessing and a curse.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.