nathaniel 0 #26 June 24, 2006 And with a modicum of effort consumers can band together and circumvent it...all we need to do is put a list of prices together. Perhaps even some vendors, those seeking business, will cooperate.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #27 June 24, 2006 cost went up. im sure the amout of employees went up sponsored pilots cost went up. im sure the list is endless.. the next step is to trim the fat, in about a year or two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #28 June 24, 2006 QuoteYour actually looking at it wrong. We did two things, had a small price increase (3-18% depending on the canopy, due to our higher cost to build them) and changed our pricing structure. Two separate things. The new pricing structure allows dealers the ability to make money. Current policy is low ball anyone who calls just to get the order, thus making it hard to make any money, in turn making it hard to provide proper service and take the time necessary to ask all the right questions, and find out if the canopy someone is asking for really is the best choice. If your not going to make money on a sale, how much time do you suppose your going to invest in that sale, or learning about all the different products? The new pricing structure will allow dealers the opportunity to make money and in turn, provide the services necessary to make sure customers are happy and safe with their choice, which will result in better and safer skydivers. Our goal here is to help our dealers focus on servicing our customers rather then worrying about staying in business. It's part of our commitment to providing the best products and best service to our customers. We want our dealers to be knowledgeable on our products and help people find the right canopy, not just order takers. What you'll see is the rest of the skydiving industry follow shortly. It's really not a new concept, just new to the skydiving industry. Isaiah performancedesigns.com QuoteAs a consumer you should be dealing with your dealer. They should be dealing with PD for sales. When you buy a car do you call Toyota headquarters? Glad I am not the only one that thought all that sounded like a car mfg's\dealers sales pitch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #29 June 24, 2006 QuoteAnd with a modicum of effort consumers can band together and circumvent it...all we need to do is put a list of prices together. Perhaps even some vendors, those seeking business, will cooperate. I'll put on my Square1 webmaster hat now and say go check out how you can buy PD canopies from Square1 vs the 'others'. 'Others' being other retailers, not other mfgs. My money is on Square1 having a better response time. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kolla 0 #30 June 24, 2006 Actually Mark, the cost of sponsored athletes/teams went down! We are making some changes in our sponsorship program to enable us to better support the teams/individuals we have - as a part of that we somewhat reduced the size of the program. Blue ones, KollaBlue Skies Magazine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #31 June 24, 2006 QuoteActually Mark, the cost of sponsored athletes/teams went down! We are making some changes in our sponsorship program to enable us to better support the teams/individuals we have - as a part of that we somewhat reduced the size of the program. Blue ones, Kolla what about the relative weakness of the US dollar. Only a factor if you buy material from other countries. a weak US dollar makes your canopies cheap (edit cheaper) for Canadians... rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #32 June 24, 2006 I am in a dtisribution business that is very competitive. That said, 3 things I dont want are customers knowing what our manufacturer relationship is. I dont want the manufacturer to know what my relationship is with the customers and I really dont want to have my competition openly know my customers pricing as then they can undercut. You sell two ways relationship/service and price. It is a balancing act to give the service and sell at a price point that makes you money but also gives the customer a reason to feel that the price they pay is worth the service and product received. The internet throws a kink in for prudent shoppers giving them a price heavy decision position since research is available and less service is needed. Information is readily avaliable as has been pricing. I have not searched for a price since yesterday but I am guessing this will try to put deep discount pricing aside. Not sure it will work as there are probably dealer levels, i.e. 1st teri pricing and 2nd teir pricing ect. I dont know as I am not a dealer for PD but if I have a raise in cost but no raise in list, I have no choice but to add to the cost to the customer. This is probably going to give them a what the hell attitude and will make them look around more. Sound like the dealers hands will be tied a bit. I will be watching and comparing the selling model I see in the PD case to other distribution / manufacturer relationships as it is always good from a distribution point of view to see how the market reacts to the change. Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #33 June 25, 2006 QuoteActually Mark, the cost of sponsored athletes/teams went down! We are making some changes in our sponsorship program to enable us to better support the teams/individuals we have - as a part of that we somewhat reduced the size of the program. Blue ones, Kolla talked to hans this weekend about the price change, and he seems very happy with it. after he told me what changed, I have to say i think it is a great move. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bob.dino 0 #34 June 25, 2006 QuotePD said to dealers, something to the effect "You may not advertise any discounted prices." ... The implications are that a consumer MUST contact the dealer to obtain a price quote. This requires extra effort on the consumer's part to find out what the price is. It may also be an inconvenience because of work schedules or time zone differences or holidays not known to non-'whatever country the dealer is in' customers. I'll agree. This "we have great prices, but you must call us to get them" policy is endemic across US business, and is one of the most annoying things about buying retail in the USA. It irritates me to the point that I'd rather shop somewhere else. However, it's probably not annoying enough to force me to a different brand of canopy, and given that PD is the market leader I think they can get away with it. Unintended side-effect time: the headline deals dealers use in advertising materials will now feature someone else's canopies. Also, based in my layman's understanding of European competition law, any attempt by PD to enforce this in Europe would be illegal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,048 #35 June 26, 2006 Hi Bob, QuoteAlso, based in my layman's understanding of European competition law, any attempt by PD to enforce this in Europe would be illegal. It may not work here either; IIRC, the Fair Trade Laws went out with the Ford Aministration. My memory is that Levi Strauss Company tried to make retailers hold to the 'retail' price but got nowhere. We'll see what happens, Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bob.dino 0 #36 June 26, 2006 QuoteMy memory is that Levi Strauss Company tried to make retailers hold to the 'retail' price but got nowhere. As I understand US law, it's illegal to force retailers to hold to a RRP, but it's acceptable to force them not to advertise their discounted prices, which is what PD has done. You can see this on amazon.com in the Electronics section - "you have to add this to your shopping cart before we tell you how much it'll cost". B&H Photo/Video require you to click a button to get the price emailed to you automatically. That may be what'll end up happening with the online stores in skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #37 June 26, 2006 A couple years ago, PD made a statement to it's dealers stating that PD did not believe that those dealers that advertised prices below a 20% discount, or regularly offered more than a 22% discount to customers were capable of offering the level of customer service that PD considered apropriate to represent their product. This may be a way for them to tighten those restrictions. Good for them, taking care of the customers AND the dealers.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #38 June 26, 2006 QuoteHi Bob, QuoteAlso, based in my layman's understanding of European competition law, any attempt by PD to enforce this in Europe would be illegal. It may not work here either; IIRC, the Fair Trade Laws went out with the Ford Aministration. My memory is that Levi Strauss Company tried to make retailers hold to the 'retail' price but got nowhere. We'll see what happens, Jerry Oakey sunglasses... If a dealer sells below the retail price and they are caught - they lose their dealership... Apple IPods too... Two major companies have successfully told their dealers - this is what you will sell our product for, or you will not sell it at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites packertom 0 #39 June 26, 2006 just my 2 cents.. kolla stated that the industry would like to see the truck dealers making 2% over wholesale go the way of the do do.... wtf... anytime I can find someone who will charge 2% over wholesale, he just got all of my business... if I can buy the same product for less money and he can stay in business doing that.... what in the hell is wrong with that? I may truly be missing the point here... we hope that dealers that charge small markups go away so that dealers who charge larger markups can make more sales will prosper since they have no competition... oh yeah... great point.. helping the skydivers out here.... I'm sure that this will be a boon to the skydiver.. having dealt with declining customer service from PD in the last several years and increading customer service from Icarus and Hiper... you don't have to be a prophet to predict whose products I will be buying, recommending and selling in the future..[email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com What's YOUR Zombie Plan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Cloudi 0 #40 June 26, 2006 Retrieving 10-foot pole that I said I wouldn't touch this thread with: Ummm...errrr...huh???? Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #41 June 26, 2006 Quotejust my 2 cents.. kolla stated that the industry would like to see the truck dealers making 2% over wholesale go the way of the do do.... wtf... anytime I can find someone who will charge 2% over wholesale, he just got all of my business... if I can buy the same product for less money and he can stay in business doing that.... what in the hell is wrong with that? I may truly be missing the point here... we hope that dealers that charge small markups go away so that dealers who charge larger markups can make more sales will prosper since they have no competition... oh yeah... great point.. helping the skydivers out here.... I'm sure that this will be a boon to the skydiver.. having dealt with declining customer service from PD in the last several years and increading customer service from Icarus and Hiper... you don't have to be a prophet to predict whose products I will be buying, recommending and selling in the future.. Disclaimer: I am not agreeing or disagreeing with PD's actions. You left one thing out of your rant. Customer service. That was mentioned as a major item in their explanation. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #42 June 26, 2006 QuoteThe new pricing structure will allow dealers the opportunity to make money and in turn, provide the services necessary to make sure customers are happy and safe with their choice, which will result in better and safer skydivers. What a load of crap!!! the new pricing stucture will help the dealers have to put up thier prices too! Just buy an ICARUS canopy, they're much better anyway! and the openings leave PD for dust! ."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ntacfreefly 0 #43 June 26, 2006 Quotethe new pricing stucture will help the dealers have to put up thier prices too! I spoke to a dealer this weekend, via new pricing structure he gets everything except for velo's and ka's cheaper. As for your Icarus comment, what makes you so sure they, or other manufacturers won't do the same thing? Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #44 June 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote Economics 101, the more you sell the more you make. that same class reveals that unit sales decrease when you increase unit prices. And your point is? Kids!!!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickanderson 0 #45 June 26, 2006 QuoteI spoke to a dealer this weekend, via new pricing structure he gets everything except for velo's and ka's cheaper. ha,ha,ha, if this is true then we know why PD increased prices, because they CAN! Im glad I dont need new gear I have a question fopr somebody-if PD doesnt want trunk dealers they why do they let them be dealers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #46 June 26, 2006 I am not a dealer and do not have the details of the PD price changes, but ... Ok I read what everyone is saying, but I still don't understand how this "helps" the average skydiver looking for a canopy. But you have to excuse me since I am a CPA and these pricing schemes may be beyond me! As you increase dealer costs, the dealer has two options. 1) Reduce his discount to his customers (effectively raising the price) or, 2) make less money on the sale. The 2% dealer is still going to be a 2% dealer simply by raising his price proportionately which means the rest of the dealers are still forced to compete against the 2% margin. After all he is is always 2% above the real cost. Total sales of PD products may go down if other manufacturers do not "adjust" their prices because skydivers do compare prices for similar products. (Back to the Economics 101 discussion). Don't get me wrong. I love PD products and appreciate what you and the other PD folks have done for the sport, but I think you're misleading both the dealers and customers regardless of your intentions when you say you are trying to help the dealer and customer. We all understand having to increase prices due to material and labor cost increases. But if you want to help your dealers, you don't do it by reducing their maximum potential margin by raising dealer prices without adjusting the "retail" price. Weeding out some of those individual "dealers" who are buying direct from PD and selling at cost would be a better approach; or offer rebates or larger dealer discounts only to dz affiliated dealers. Thanks for your team support and for your contributions to skydiving over the years. We are all better off than we were ... Only my 2 cents.... Blues, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ntacfreefly 0 #47 June 26, 2006 Quoteha,ha,ha, if this is true then we know why PD increased prices, because they CAN! Im glad I dont need new gear errrr, not sure how you got that from my post. The dealers POINT was (which you've obviously missed) that he could offer better prices on most of their products than he could before.... Might not be true of all dealers, sure, but my point is that a lot of people are making a lot of ASSUMPTIONS about things that we obviously don't have all the details on. Me, I'm going to sit and see how this all pans out and then make a decision on whether or not I think it's a good idea. Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #48 June 26, 2006 QuoteMight not be true of all dealers, sure, but my point is that a lot of people are making a lot of ASSUMPTIONS about things that we obviously don't have all the details on. seriously, you people bitchin about this, should find out what is really going on, then I would think you wouldn't bitch anymore. this is a damned if you do, or damned if you don't scenario. some prices went up. and some went down. depending on the dealer, and how big of a dealer you are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #49 June 26, 2006 Quote seriously, you people bitchin about this, should find out what is really going on, then I would think you wouldn't bitch anymore. I think if people could understand what really is going on, they'd stop bitchin' about it. While PD has said it will be good for skydivers, dealers, and prices are going up, etc., I'm still kinda confused about what has actually changed, and how/why it'll be good for everyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #50 June 26, 2006 ask your local dealer how thi affects them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 2 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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bob.dino 0 #34 June 25, 2006 QuotePD said to dealers, something to the effect "You may not advertise any discounted prices." ... The implications are that a consumer MUST contact the dealer to obtain a price quote. This requires extra effort on the consumer's part to find out what the price is. It may also be an inconvenience because of work schedules or time zone differences or holidays not known to non-'whatever country the dealer is in' customers. I'll agree. This "we have great prices, but you must call us to get them" policy is endemic across US business, and is one of the most annoying things about buying retail in the USA. It irritates me to the point that I'd rather shop somewhere else. However, it's probably not annoying enough to force me to a different brand of canopy, and given that PD is the market leader I think they can get away with it. Unintended side-effect time: the headline deals dealers use in advertising materials will now feature someone else's canopies. Also, based in my layman's understanding of European competition law, any attempt by PD to enforce this in Europe would be illegal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #35 June 26, 2006 Hi Bob, QuoteAlso, based in my layman's understanding of European competition law, any attempt by PD to enforce this in Europe would be illegal. It may not work here either; IIRC, the Fair Trade Laws went out with the Ford Aministration. My memory is that Levi Strauss Company tried to make retailers hold to the 'retail' price but got nowhere. We'll see what happens, Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #36 June 26, 2006 QuoteMy memory is that Levi Strauss Company tried to make retailers hold to the 'retail' price but got nowhere. As I understand US law, it's illegal to force retailers to hold to a RRP, but it's acceptable to force them not to advertise their discounted prices, which is what PD has done. You can see this on amazon.com in the Electronics section - "you have to add this to your shopping cart before we tell you how much it'll cost". B&H Photo/Video require you to click a button to get the price emailed to you automatically. That may be what'll end up happening with the online stores in skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #37 June 26, 2006 A couple years ago, PD made a statement to it's dealers stating that PD did not believe that those dealers that advertised prices below a 20% discount, or regularly offered more than a 22% discount to customers were capable of offering the level of customer service that PD considered apropriate to represent their product. This may be a way for them to tighten those restrictions. Good for them, taking care of the customers AND the dealers.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #38 June 26, 2006 QuoteHi Bob, QuoteAlso, based in my layman's understanding of European competition law, any attempt by PD to enforce this in Europe would be illegal. It may not work here either; IIRC, the Fair Trade Laws went out with the Ford Aministration. My memory is that Levi Strauss Company tried to make retailers hold to the 'retail' price but got nowhere. We'll see what happens, Jerry Oakey sunglasses... If a dealer sells below the retail price and they are caught - they lose their dealership... Apple IPods too... Two major companies have successfully told their dealers - this is what you will sell our product for, or you will not sell it at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packertom 0 #39 June 26, 2006 just my 2 cents.. kolla stated that the industry would like to see the truck dealers making 2% over wholesale go the way of the do do.... wtf... anytime I can find someone who will charge 2% over wholesale, he just got all of my business... if I can buy the same product for less money and he can stay in business doing that.... what in the hell is wrong with that? I may truly be missing the point here... we hope that dealers that charge small markups go away so that dealers who charge larger markups can make more sales will prosper since they have no competition... oh yeah... great point.. helping the skydivers out here.... I'm sure that this will be a boon to the skydiver.. having dealt with declining customer service from PD in the last several years and increading customer service from Icarus and Hiper... you don't have to be a prophet to predict whose products I will be buying, recommending and selling in the future..[email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com What's YOUR Zombie Plan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #40 June 26, 2006 Retrieving 10-foot pole that I said I wouldn't touch this thread with: Ummm...errrr...huh???? Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #41 June 26, 2006 Quotejust my 2 cents.. kolla stated that the industry would like to see the truck dealers making 2% over wholesale go the way of the do do.... wtf... anytime I can find someone who will charge 2% over wholesale, he just got all of my business... if I can buy the same product for less money and he can stay in business doing that.... what in the hell is wrong with that? I may truly be missing the point here... we hope that dealers that charge small markups go away so that dealers who charge larger markups can make more sales will prosper since they have no competition... oh yeah... great point.. helping the skydivers out here.... I'm sure that this will be a boon to the skydiver.. having dealt with declining customer service from PD in the last several years and increading customer service from Icarus and Hiper... you don't have to be a prophet to predict whose products I will be buying, recommending and selling in the future.. Disclaimer: I am not agreeing or disagreeing with PD's actions. You left one thing out of your rant. Customer service. That was mentioned as a major item in their explanation. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #42 June 26, 2006 QuoteThe new pricing structure will allow dealers the opportunity to make money and in turn, provide the services necessary to make sure customers are happy and safe with their choice, which will result in better and safer skydivers. What a load of crap!!! the new pricing stucture will help the dealers have to put up thier prices too! Just buy an ICARUS canopy, they're much better anyway! and the openings leave PD for dust! ."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntacfreefly 0 #43 June 26, 2006 Quotethe new pricing stucture will help the dealers have to put up thier prices too! I spoke to a dealer this weekend, via new pricing structure he gets everything except for velo's and ka's cheaper. As for your Icarus comment, what makes you so sure they, or other manufacturers won't do the same thing? Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #44 June 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote Economics 101, the more you sell the more you make. that same class reveals that unit sales decrease when you increase unit prices. And your point is? Kids!!!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickanderson 0 #45 June 26, 2006 QuoteI spoke to a dealer this weekend, via new pricing structure he gets everything except for velo's and ka's cheaper. ha,ha,ha, if this is true then we know why PD increased prices, because they CAN! Im glad I dont need new gear I have a question fopr somebody-if PD doesnt want trunk dealers they why do they let them be dealers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #46 June 26, 2006 I am not a dealer and do not have the details of the PD price changes, but ... Ok I read what everyone is saying, but I still don't understand how this "helps" the average skydiver looking for a canopy. But you have to excuse me since I am a CPA and these pricing schemes may be beyond me! As you increase dealer costs, the dealer has two options. 1) Reduce his discount to his customers (effectively raising the price) or, 2) make less money on the sale. The 2% dealer is still going to be a 2% dealer simply by raising his price proportionately which means the rest of the dealers are still forced to compete against the 2% margin. After all he is is always 2% above the real cost. Total sales of PD products may go down if other manufacturers do not "adjust" their prices because skydivers do compare prices for similar products. (Back to the Economics 101 discussion). Don't get me wrong. I love PD products and appreciate what you and the other PD folks have done for the sport, but I think you're misleading both the dealers and customers regardless of your intentions when you say you are trying to help the dealer and customer. We all understand having to increase prices due to material and labor cost increases. But if you want to help your dealers, you don't do it by reducing their maximum potential margin by raising dealer prices without adjusting the "retail" price. Weeding out some of those individual "dealers" who are buying direct from PD and selling at cost would be a better approach; or offer rebates or larger dealer discounts only to dz affiliated dealers. Thanks for your team support and for your contributions to skydiving over the years. We are all better off than we were ... Only my 2 cents.... Blues, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntacfreefly 0 #47 June 26, 2006 Quoteha,ha,ha, if this is true then we know why PD increased prices, because they CAN! Im glad I dont need new gear errrr, not sure how you got that from my post. The dealers POINT was (which you've obviously missed) that he could offer better prices on most of their products than he could before.... Might not be true of all dealers, sure, but my point is that a lot of people are making a lot of ASSUMPTIONS about things that we obviously don't have all the details on. Me, I'm going to sit and see how this all pans out and then make a decision on whether or not I think it's a good idea. Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #48 June 26, 2006 QuoteMight not be true of all dealers, sure, but my point is that a lot of people are making a lot of ASSUMPTIONS about things that we obviously don't have all the details on. seriously, you people bitchin about this, should find out what is really going on, then I would think you wouldn't bitch anymore. this is a damned if you do, or damned if you don't scenario. some prices went up. and some went down. depending on the dealer, and how big of a dealer you are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #49 June 26, 2006 Quote seriously, you people bitchin about this, should find out what is really going on, then I would think you wouldn't bitch anymore. I think if people could understand what really is going on, they'd stop bitchin' about it. While PD has said it will be good for skydivers, dealers, and prices are going up, etc., I'm still kinda confused about what has actually changed, and how/why it'll be good for everyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #50 June 26, 2006 ask your local dealer how thi affects them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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