caspar 0 #1 June 15, 2006 after reading this : http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=121557#121557 i was wondering. how the hell can you get a horshoe mal on your reserve if the bridle is under the pilot chute?? i read it twice but i guess im still being dumb and misread the post - still at work and its been a very long day."When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #2 June 15, 2006 A horeshoe could be caused on deployment of the reserve if the reserve PC/bridle wraps around your foot or something. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #3 June 15, 2006 if you are tumbling badly when reserve PC comes out, its quite possible the PC will wrap around an arm, leg, neck etc. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kenneth21441 0 #4 June 15, 2006 My understanding and from all the Army viedos that Ive seen was the free bag if and when it does get caught will still deploy the reserve. That is also why the bridle can deploy the reserve even if the reserve PC is caught on something. What scares me is the round parachutes (reserves) that do not have a free bag and I could see these going into a horse shoe. thank god for the squares.Kenneth Potter FAA Senior Parachute Rigger Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA) FFL Gunsmith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twibbles 0 #5 June 15, 2006 QuoteMy understanding and from all the Army viedos that Ive seen was the free bag if and when it does get caught will still deploy the reserve. That is also why the bridle can deploy the reserve even if the reserve PC is caught on something. Unless you're unlucky enough to have a reserve baglock, but you'll have to be very unlucky. edited to add: then again, bill booth did say in that link above that the bridle does not produce enough drag to extract the reserve. Eugene "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #6 June 15, 2006 Not all round parachutes have attached pilot chutes. I service two strong Aerosport canopies in seat rigs that are deployed with a free sleeve. Comes loose on deployment.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #7 June 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteMy understanding and from all the Army viedos that Ive seen was the free bag if and when it does get caught will still deploy the reserve. That is also why the bridle can deploy the reserve even if the reserve PC is caught on something. Unless you're unlucky enough to have a reserve baglock, but you'll have to be very unlucky. edited to add: then again, bill booth did say in that link above that the bridle does not produce enough drag to extract the reserve. Eugene AND THAT'S WHY I DEVELOPED THE "CATAPULT"!!!!!! A horseshoe'd bridle almost cost me my life!!! Shame all of the nay-sayers helped NOT to bring it in wide spread acceptence, BTW it hasn't killed any one and has three or four documented saves. All of the scenarios "they" put forward never came to pass, it could have saved four or five indivuals had it been accepted on a wider basis, but that's how it goes when superstition overcomes the laws of physics! I offered a solution and the "old guard" rejected it as a "death trap", I guess that's the downside of competition when you are the "little guy". JUDGE FOR YOUR SELF .I wouldn't jump without one neither would I let my friends or loved ones also. That is how strongly I believe in it. Period!! Anyone? Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #8 June 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteMy understanding and from all the Army viedos that Ive seen was the free bag if and when it does get caught will still deploy the reserve. That is also why the bridle can deploy the reserve even if the reserve PC is caught on something. Unless you're unlucky enough to have a reserve baglock, but you'll have to be very unlucky. edited to add: then again, bill booth did say in that link above that the bridle does not produce enough drag to extract the reserve. Eugene AND THAT'S WHY I DEVELOPED THE "CATAPULT"!!!!!! A horseshoe'd bridle almost cost me my life!!! Shame all of the nay-sayers helped NOT to bring it in wide spread acceptence, BTW it hasn't killed any one and has three or four documented saves. All of the scenarios "they" put forward never came to pass, it could have saved four or five indivuals had it been accepted on a wider basis, but that's how it goes when superstition overcomes the laws of physics! I offered a solution and the "old guard" rejected it as a "death trap", I guess that's the downside of competition when you are the "little guy". JUDGE FOR YOUR SELF .I wouldn't jump without one neither would I let my friends or loved ones also. That is how strongly I believe in it. Period!! Anyone? Mick. I love ya man, and I'd happily put one on my gear if I could. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #9 June 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteMy understanding and from all the Army viedos that Ive seen was the free bag if and when it does get caught will still deploy the reserve. That is also why the bridle can deploy the reserve even if the reserve PC is caught on something. Unless you're unlucky enough to have a reserve baglock, but you'll have to be very unlucky. edited to add: then again, bill booth did say in that link above that the bridle does not produce enough drag to extract the reserve. Eugene AND THAT'S WHY I DEVELOPED THE "CATAPULT"!!!!!! A horseshoe'd bridle almost cost me my life!!! Shame all of the nay-sayers helped NOT to bring it in wide spread acceptence, BTW it hasn't killed any one and has three or four documented saves. All of the scenarios "they" put forward never came to pass, it could have saved four or five indivuals had it been accepted on a wider basis, but that's how it goes when superstition overcomes the laws of physics! I offered a solution and the "old guard" rejected it as a "death trap", I guess that's the downside of competition when you are the "little guy". JUDGE FOR YOUR SELF .I wouldn't jump without one neither would I let my friends or loved ones also. That is how strongly I believe in it. Period!! Anyone? Mick. I love ya man, and I'd happily put one on my gear if I could. Sure Dat!!!! Mick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aironscott 3 #10 June 16, 2006 Oh yeah! What a great idea the Crapapult was. One pilot chute on one side of you and the other wrapped around you on the other side cuz you cutaway from a spinner and tumbled through reserve deployment. And now you got nothing to extract the freebag and reserve canopy cuz its all wrapped around you. Get over it. The catapult was a great idea that wasn't thought through very well. Sorry for the harshness but I put that cat right up there with the old Racer RSL and some of the other all time bad ideas. Otherwise the Reflex isn't a bad rig. In fact they make me good money because a bunch of riggers out there shy away from packing them. Aaron“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caspar 0 #11 June 16, 2006 what is "the catapult"? and from what i understand the best thing out there to prevent you tumbling through your reserve is the skyhook because it opens your reserve so fast that there is less time for you to tumble through it."When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigger_john 0 #12 June 16, 2006 QuoteOh yeah! What a great idea the Crapapult was. One pilot chute on one side of you and the other wrapped around you on the other side cuz you cutaway from a spinner and tumbled through reserve deployment. And now you got nothing to extract the freebag and reserve canopy cuz its all wrapped around you. I've seen a lot of people get off spinning mals over the years and I can't remember anybody go anywhere apart from away from the mal, normaly very very fast, I realy don't see where this idea about getting caught up in your reserve deployment comes from. I think the catapult is a good soloution to a problem, although a quite rare one. I'm not saying it doesn't have problems but all the arguments I hear against it seem to ignore the laws of physics. Now we sortted that Next....... why RSL should be mandatory _________________________________________ Nullius in Verba Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #13 June 16, 2006 Quotewhat is "the catapult"? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A catapult is an extra - un sprung - pilot chute sewn to the reserve bridle 1/3 of the way up. Catapults are found on Reflex skydiving containers (formerly made by Fliteline) and Mach III Alpha military freefall rigs (made by FXC/Guardian). Catapults are the functional replacement for wide reserve bridles. Even Bill Booth admits that wide bridles no longer create enough drag to lift a reserve freebag off your back. Catapults are supposed to save you if your sprung reserve pilot chute malfunctions. They actually saved a couple of skydivers, when a brain-death, red-neck rigger miss-read the manual, ignoring common sense and industry-wide practices when packing Reflex pilot chutes. Hah! Did I slander Reflex-detractors harshly enough? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 6 #14 June 16, 2006 QuoteOh yeah! What a great idea the Crapapult was. One pilot chute on one side of you and the other wrapped around you on the other side cuz you cutaway from a spinner and tumbled through reserve deployment. And now you got nothing to extract the freebag and reserve canopy cuz its all wrapped around Yeah That old arguement, popular with the naysayers, one slight problem though, it assumes that a body is in a steady state and not moving. As we all know in free fall nothing is static, even unconcious jumpers are moving all over the place. We tried to duplicate this scenario but those pesky laws of physics kept getting in the way and wouldn't let happen. It's a shame you bought in to the propaganda perpitrated by people with agendas one of which is representing for rival manufacturers. Once it (negative propaganda) starts newer and more impressionable people buy in to it with out question and it becomes gospel even though it's BS. Some believe it through ignorance, some don't understand physics, most no nothing about equipment design and as we all know skydivers love to give their opinion on everything, weather it's right or not. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites caspar 0 #15 June 16, 2006 ok maybe this is a dumb idea but what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle. these would catch the air, and create a higher pull force and not cause any extra entanglement issues? well something along those lines anyway. most likely a dumb idea but "could" this work? edit to add: if it works you gotta let me name it!"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #16 June 16, 2006 Quoteok maybe this is a dumb idea but what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle. these would catch the air, and create a higher pull force and not cause any extra entanglement issues? It's been a while since I've seen one, but I believe that Talon's have pockets on the bridle. I doubt there is enough drag from them to pull a reserve bag out of the container and get the canopy out though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites caspar 0 #17 June 16, 2006 why not just make the pockets larger then or cover more or the bridle? i guess this could affect the deployment if the PC is pulling on the reserve and so is the bridle. would this make a normal deployment too fast (if there is such a thing)?"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,048 #18 June 16, 2006 Hi casper, Quote what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle If I remember correctly, the EOS was the first rig to have the 'assistor pockets' on the bridle; then Talon copied the idea. I have no idea how well they worked; I've never seen a deployment of the system. Since the Catapult attaches directly to the bridle (no additional bridle of its own) I do not see any downside to it (well, maybe a slight additional bulk). Just my worthless $0.02. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #19 June 16, 2006 aironscott QuoteOh yeah! What a great idea the Crapapult was. One pilot chute on one side of you and the other wrapped around you on the other side cuz you cutaway from a spinner and tumbled through reserve deployment. And now you got nothing to extract the freebag and reserve canopy cuz its all wrapped around you. First off, I am not a fan of the Catapult. But what you have described is pure BS. If it would happen, as you describe it, with a Catapult it would happen with any rig. Have you ever seen this happen or even heard of it happening? I don’t think so. Have you done any testing to validate your “theory”? Again I don’t think so. Riggermick QuoteOnce it (negative propaganda) starts newer and more impressionable people buy in to it with out question and it becomes gospel even though it's BS. Its amazing how much that is considered "fact" about parachuting gear started out like that. Joe Blow said it so it must be fact. Trouble is Joe Blow often does not know his ass from a hot rockMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KindredSpirit 0 #20 June 17, 2006 QuoteIf I remember correctly, the EOS was the first rig to have the 'assistor pockets' on the bridle; then Talon copied the idea. I have no idea how well they worked; I've never seen a deployment of the system. I have a spare freebag for my Talon so I snapped a pic. Are the grey things the 'assistor pockets' you are talking about? "Kicking gravity's ass since 2003!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites koppel 3 #21 June 17, 2006 They would be inded what he is describing. Interesting thought here though....this thread is based on a horseshoe on the reserve. These 'assistor' pockets are only functional (if at all) uni-directionally. In the event of a horseshoe these 'assistor' pockets become immediately disfunctional due to the mouth know pointing upwards, away from the relative wind. If they seriously thought that there was any benifit from them, other than to LOOK like they are doing something to solve a problem, surely they would have them facing both directions. What next - Airbags?I like my canopy... ...it lets me down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #22 June 17, 2006 There are several of the pockets and they run the length of the bridle. In a horseshoe situation some of them will still point the right way.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 6 #23 June 17, 2006 Quoteok maybe this is a dumb idea but what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle. these would catch the air, and create a higher pull force and not cause any extra entanglement issues? well something along those lines anyway. most likely a dumb idea but "could" this work? edit to add: if it works you gotta let me name it! I think all of the later posters gave you the answer you were looking for, but hey at least you were THINKING!! Maybe you have the desire and potential to become a rigger and later down the road a designer/ manufacturer! That's how EVERYONE ELSE who designs and builds skydiving stuff got their start. Question conventional wisdom at all oppertunities and develop an aniyltical mind, that is how it is done. No one is born with the specfic skills to do this type of work, they just find it facinating and have a true pure love of being creative. If it feels like a "fit" for you then run with it, I did as so many others before and after me have done. This is the true engine of evoloution in any endevour. That's where ALL the new innovations come from. It's truly exiteing, no shit!!! Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites koppel 3 #24 June 17, 2006 D'oh! Engage Brain - Think - TypeI like my canopy... ...it lets me down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites caspar 0 #25 June 17, 2006 cheers! ok here is my idea. 1) "nose" of cell to catch the air 2) ZP material to catch the air sewed ontop of reserve bridle 3) 2nd cell, pointed the other way so drag can be induced no matter the position of bridle 4) seem to split the cells. 5)reserve bridle my 1st idea is to sew the opposite facing cells ontop of eachother so the end of the cell is sewed ontop of the "nose" of the other. the 1st way mentioned is easier to draw to explain though i just figured that if you had these on the whole of the bridle (both sides) thats got to be the same amount of surface area as a pilot chute. how do you think this would change a normal reserve deployment? edit to add: credit to my friend jack for the diagonal seem idea. we were chatting about it and drawing it this morning whilst very hungover."When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." 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riggermick 6 #14 June 16, 2006 QuoteOh yeah! What a great idea the Crapapult was. One pilot chute on one side of you and the other wrapped around you on the other side cuz you cutaway from a spinner and tumbled through reserve deployment. And now you got nothing to extract the freebag and reserve canopy cuz its all wrapped around Yeah That old arguement, popular with the naysayers, one slight problem though, it assumes that a body is in a steady state and not moving. As we all know in free fall nothing is static, even unconcious jumpers are moving all over the place. We tried to duplicate this scenario but those pesky laws of physics kept getting in the way and wouldn't let happen. It's a shame you bought in to the propaganda perpitrated by people with agendas one of which is representing for rival manufacturers. Once it (negative propaganda) starts newer and more impressionable people buy in to it with out question and it becomes gospel even though it's BS. Some believe it through ignorance, some don't understand physics, most no nothing about equipment design and as we all know skydivers love to give their opinion on everything, weather it's right or not. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites caspar 0 #15 June 16, 2006 ok maybe this is a dumb idea but what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle. these would catch the air, and create a higher pull force and not cause any extra entanglement issues? well something along those lines anyway. most likely a dumb idea but "could" this work? edit to add: if it works you gotta let me name it!"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #16 June 16, 2006 Quoteok maybe this is a dumb idea but what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle. these would catch the air, and create a higher pull force and not cause any extra entanglement issues? It's been a while since I've seen one, but I believe that Talon's have pockets on the bridle. I doubt there is enough drag from them to pull a reserve bag out of the container and get the canopy out though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites caspar 0 #17 June 16, 2006 why not just make the pockets larger then or cover more or the bridle? i guess this could affect the deployment if the PC is pulling on the reserve and so is the bridle. would this make a normal deployment too fast (if there is such a thing)?"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,048 #18 June 16, 2006 Hi casper, Quote what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle If I remember correctly, the EOS was the first rig to have the 'assistor pockets' on the bridle; then Talon copied the idea. I have no idea how well they worked; I've never seen a deployment of the system. Since the Catapult attaches directly to the bridle (no additional bridle of its own) I do not see any downside to it (well, maybe a slight additional bulk). Just my worthless $0.02. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #19 June 16, 2006 aironscott QuoteOh yeah! What a great idea the Crapapult was. One pilot chute on one side of you and the other wrapped around you on the other side cuz you cutaway from a spinner and tumbled through reserve deployment. And now you got nothing to extract the freebag and reserve canopy cuz its all wrapped around you. First off, I am not a fan of the Catapult. But what you have described is pure BS. If it would happen, as you describe it, with a Catapult it would happen with any rig. Have you ever seen this happen or even heard of it happening? I don’t think so. Have you done any testing to validate your “theory”? Again I don’t think so. Riggermick QuoteOnce it (negative propaganda) starts newer and more impressionable people buy in to it with out question and it becomes gospel even though it's BS. Its amazing how much that is considered "fact" about parachuting gear started out like that. Joe Blow said it so it must be fact. Trouble is Joe Blow often does not know his ass from a hot rockMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KindredSpirit 0 #20 June 17, 2006 QuoteIf I remember correctly, the EOS was the first rig to have the 'assistor pockets' on the bridle; then Talon copied the idea. I have no idea how well they worked; I've never seen a deployment of the system. I have a spare freebag for my Talon so I snapped a pic. Are the grey things the 'assistor pockets' you are talking about? "Kicking gravity's ass since 2003!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caspar 0 #15 June 16, 2006 ok maybe this is a dumb idea but what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle. these would catch the air, and create a higher pull force and not cause any extra entanglement issues? well something along those lines anyway. most likely a dumb idea but "could" this work? edit to add: if it works you gotta let me name it!"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #16 June 16, 2006 Quoteok maybe this is a dumb idea but what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle. these would catch the air, and create a higher pull force and not cause any extra entanglement issues? It's been a while since I've seen one, but I believe that Talon's have pockets on the bridle. I doubt there is enough drag from them to pull a reserve bag out of the container and get the canopy out though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caspar 0 #17 June 16, 2006 why not just make the pockets larger then or cover more or the bridle? i guess this could affect the deployment if the PC is pulling on the reserve and so is the bridle. would this make a normal deployment too fast (if there is such a thing)?"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #18 June 16, 2006 Hi casper, Quote what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle If I remember correctly, the EOS was the first rig to have the 'assistor pockets' on the bridle; then Talon copied the idea. I have no idea how well they worked; I've never seen a deployment of the system. Since the Catapult attaches directly to the bridle (no additional bridle of its own) I do not see any downside to it (well, maybe a slight additional bulk). Just my worthless $0.02. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #19 June 16, 2006 aironscott QuoteOh yeah! What a great idea the Crapapult was. One pilot chute on one side of you and the other wrapped around you on the other side cuz you cutaway from a spinner and tumbled through reserve deployment. And now you got nothing to extract the freebag and reserve canopy cuz its all wrapped around you. First off, I am not a fan of the Catapult. But what you have described is pure BS. If it would happen, as you describe it, with a Catapult it would happen with any rig. Have you ever seen this happen or even heard of it happening? I don’t think so. Have you done any testing to validate your “theory”? Again I don’t think so. Riggermick QuoteOnce it (negative propaganda) starts newer and more impressionable people buy in to it with out question and it becomes gospel even though it's BS. Its amazing how much that is considered "fact" about parachuting gear started out like that. Joe Blow said it so it must be fact. Trouble is Joe Blow often does not know his ass from a hot rockMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KindredSpirit 0 #20 June 17, 2006 QuoteIf I remember correctly, the EOS was the first rig to have the 'assistor pockets' on the bridle; then Talon copied the idea. I have no idea how well they worked; I've never seen a deployment of the system. I have a spare freebag for my Talon so I snapped a pic. Are the grey things the 'assistor pockets' you are talking about? "Kicking gravity's ass since 2003!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koppel 3 #21 June 17, 2006 They would be inded what he is describing. Interesting thought here though....this thread is based on a horseshoe on the reserve. These 'assistor' pockets are only functional (if at all) uni-directionally. In the event of a horseshoe these 'assistor' pockets become immediately disfunctional due to the mouth know pointing upwards, away from the relative wind. If they seriously thought that there was any benifit from them, other than to LOOK like they are doing something to solve a problem, surely they would have them facing both directions. What next - Airbags?I like my canopy... ...it lets me down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #22 June 17, 2006 There are several of the pockets and they run the length of the bridle. In a horseshoe situation some of them will still point the right way.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #23 June 17, 2006 Quoteok maybe this is a dumb idea but what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle. these would catch the air, and create a higher pull force and not cause any extra entanglement issues? well something along those lines anyway. most likely a dumb idea but "could" this work? edit to add: if it works you gotta let me name it! I think all of the later posters gave you the answer you were looking for, but hey at least you were THINKING!! Maybe you have the desire and potential to become a rigger and later down the road a designer/ manufacturer! That's how EVERYONE ELSE who designs and builds skydiving stuff got their start. Question conventional wisdom at all oppertunities and develop an aniyltical mind, that is how it is done. No one is born with the specfic skills to do this type of work, they just find it facinating and have a true pure love of being creative. If it feels like a "fit" for you then run with it, I did as so many others before and after me have done. This is the true engine of evoloution in any endevour. That's where ALL the new innovations come from. It's truly exiteing, no shit!!! Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koppel 3 #24 June 17, 2006 D'oh! Engage Brain - Think - TypeI like my canopy... ...it lets me down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caspar 0 #25 June 17, 2006 cheers! ok here is my idea. 1) "nose" of cell to catch the air 2) ZP material to catch the air sewed ontop of reserve bridle 3) 2nd cell, pointed the other way so drag can be induced no matter the position of bridle 4) seem to split the cells. 5)reserve bridle my 1st idea is to sew the opposite facing cells ontop of eachother so the end of the cell is sewed ontop of the "nose" of the other. the 1st way mentioned is easier to draw to explain though i just figured that if you had these on the whole of the bridle (both sides) thats got to be the same amount of surface area as a pilot chute. how do you think this would change a normal reserve deployment? edit to add: credit to my friend jack for the diagonal seem idea. we were chatting about it and drawing it this morning whilst very hungover."When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
