Freefly on a Vector II

[Ugali 0]

Is it safe?

Any feedback would be much appreciated

Tom, Tom Tom, Tommy, Tom Love

[phoenixlpr 0]

NO.

Its not safe. Its not designed for that.

Main pin cover is opening, and riser covers are opening in head down.

Been there done that.

[Ugali 0]

can it be modified so it is safe?

Tom, Tom Tom, Tommy, Tom Love

[phoenixlpr 0]

Replace is always easier that rebuild.

Don't buy that or if you have bought... you should have know.

[Ugali 0]

cheers

Tom, Tom Tom, Tommy, Tom Love

[peek 20]

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"Freefly on a Vector II "Is it safe? Any feedback would be much appreciated

Skydiving is not "safe".

Having said that, any nearly well maintained rig can be used for freefalling in the various orientations, even rigs with Velcro.

Perhaps asking an open-minded and experienced rigger to show you some of the things to consider on the rig.

This rigger might be able to do some inexpensive modifications to improve the safety of the rig if needed.

[Squeak 17]

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NO.

Its not safe. Its not designed for that.

Main pin cover is opening, and riser covers are opening in head down.

Been there done that.

I know about 4 ppl that FF with them and they work fine.
they had them VERY well maintained
and they have had no issues

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[fcajump 153]

I jump a Vector II and my other rig was a Vector I.

KNOWING the risks, and maintaining my own gear (rigger), I occasionally sit-fly...

BUT, if you are serious about freeflying or less than exacting about your maintanence and packing, get a rig designed for it. There are many better designs for "modern" flying, including the Vector III.

Jim (currently deciding on my next rig, partially for THIS exact reason.)

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[riggerrob 558]

Vector II is fine for freeflying as long as you replace Velcro on a regular basis and keep closing loops tight. The only modification I have made to my Vector II was to add a small bridle cover the the lower right corner of the main container.

Note: if you are too lazy/cheap/etc. to replace Velcro, closing loops, etc. don't try freeflying with any rig.

[Timmay 0]

I've done it in an old Vector (1983 DOM I think).
Was fine at the time, but wouldn't ever again looking back on how in-experienced I was.

[HardCorr 0]

The first time I ever jumped a Vector II, I was borrowing the rig from a guy. I didn't bother to ask your question and I tried to sit fly with it. I got a premature opening at around 5,000 and almost got creamed by the person sitting right above and to the side of me. When I got on the ground, I discovered an extremely loose bridal which was the cause of the premo. Luckily it didn't turn into a horseshoe. With that in mind, if I were to jump a Vector II again, I'd have my rigger install some form of better bridal protection first and foremost. Second, I'd seriously consider not sitting with that container and just sticking to some RW work.

Hope this helps!!!

The key to being a good teacher, is to be a good listener...

[moonglo 0]

I used to freefly in my old Vector 2, but I was sure to keep the velcro and boc maintained and had the main flap modified so the tucked under flap part was longer and less likely to come out. Never had a problem with that setup for the 300 or so jumps I had it except for a floating reserve handle a few times (once when I needed it) due to stupid me not replacing that velcro when I had the rest done.

That said, I do feel its safer in my Vector 3

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[wmw999 2,122]

I'm going to suggest that it's a terrible choice for someone (possibly newer) who isn't all that interested in their gear, and just wants it to work.

People who really look at their containers, think about how they work, how they might fail, and who knwo what maintenance needs to be done (because they can see what's happening -- not because the instruction book says) are much more likely to have happy experiences with stuff like that.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[hookitt 0]

In general, Vector II's are not safe to freefly in. If you fly on your back or head down, or do lots of freestyle flippy things, even good velcro will peel open exposing the risers and toggles to the wind. If the riser covers were really short, iit would be less of a problem, but they are quite long.

The main pin cover flap in flips open on most Vector IIs. The reserve cover flap will come open pretty easily as well.

Adding bridle protection should occur whether you freefly or not, but it alone will not make the rig "freefly friendly"

Premature openings can, and have, caused gear damage. Most importantly, a premature opening can and has caused body damage.

Good luck.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Jhoek 0]

had one myself and never had a problem. It was modified tho. velcro replaced by tabs on the riser covers, tabs on the reserve flap, tabs on the main pin protection flap and velcro on the inside of the closing flap on the right and on the part of the bridle that would fit under there.

never had any flap open what ever move i made, but made only 200 jumps on it.

so whatever you are comfortable with =]

[CloudOnMyTongue 0]

I jump a vector II.

A rigger did a few mods to it, cost me $60.

I freefly, have had no problems. Was well worth it for my first rig

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[angryelf 0]

My first container was a '93 Vector II. I posted the same question here almost a year ago and was basically told not to do it under any circumstances. I looked for an opinion elsewhere and had a rigger check the rig out. The only velcro on my rig was in the riser covers and it was in good condition. I also had the rig converted to a BOC when I bought it and added bridle protection. I put about 40 sit fly jumps on it and the rig was super secure. I never flew it head down, and was very careful about how I stowed the risers/secured the riser covers. I got away with it-but the possibilty of a premature opening was always present in the back of my mind (and still is with my Infinity or any rig for that matter)...Make sure your closing loop is tight too-I've seen a couple of people have premies on modern, state of the art, supposedly "FF friendly" gear due to a loose pin...
Also-if you are just getting into freefly-spend the money on audibles-they won't pull for you-but they might help you maintain alt awareness...
As with anything-equipment maintence and attention to detail go a long way in determining whether or not your rig is safe to FF. And don't forget-ask riggers, experienced freeflyers, etc. at your DZ. Are you planning on doing a lot of FF or are you just wanting to check it out? Can you afford to get a more secure rig? These are things you need to consider...Ultimately the decision is up to you-but I'd start saving for a little more security...

"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

[marinho 0]

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had one myself and never had a problem. It was modified tho. velcro replaced by tabs on the riser covers...

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never had any flap open what ever move i made, but made only 200 jumps on it.

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Just a thought:
Was your rig drop tested and all the data collected to show and prove that no problem was found on the following categories:
-If you're freefall, go straight to the reserve, the tabs don't present any problem for the reserve deployment!
-Can you still use a RSL with the tabs in place!
-Drop test with RSL and once again, go straight to the reserve!
-Relative Workshop approves and endorses the tabs!

I have a lot of customers that asked me to make this mods and I always say that I'm not an engineer, just a master rigger, and if I have to make a modification like that, I always has to consult the manufacturer and get their approval!
I hope this helps!
Cheers,

Gus Marinho

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[Ugali 0]

looks like peace of mind is not something i'm going to have if i start FF with a vector II. i came close to having a premiture opening about 6 months ago (on a student rig), found the pilot chute sticking out of the BOC 'bout half way in freefall. scared me and not something i want to go through again.
Cheers for clarifying this
Tom

Tom, Tom Tom, Tommy, Tom Love

[Jhoek 0]

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had one myself and never had a problem. It was modified tho. velcro replaced by tabs on the riser covers...

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never had any flap open what ever move i made, but made only 200 jumps on it.

Quote

Just a thought:
Was your rig drop tested and all the data collected to show and prove that no problem was found on the following categories:
-If you're freefall, go straight to the reserve, the tabs don't present any problem for the reserve deployment!
-Can you still use a RSL with the tabs in place!
-Drop test with RSL and once again, go straight to the reserve!
-Relative Workshop approves and endorses the tabs!

I have a lot of customers that asked me to make this mods and I always say that I'm not an engineer, just a master rigger, and if I have to make a modification like that, I always has to consult the manufacturer and get their approval!
I hope this helps!
Cheers,

to be honest no
I had one cutaway on it with rsl and it obviously worked.
I pulled the reserve twice while on the ground ( repack) and it opened fine.

I never doubted it, but i dont know if RWS approves of the mods done.
Do you know?

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[marinho 0]

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to be honest no
I had one cutaway on it with rsl and it obviously worked.
I pulled the reserve twice while on the ground ( repack) and it opened fine.

I never doubted it, but i dont know if RWS approves of the mods done.
Do you know?

As far as I know, RW does not recognizes that mod. What about ask Bill Booth to see what he thinks!!!!

My only concern is with the scenario of going straight to reserve deployment with the main still on the container!!
When the main is opened, the tabs are no longer closed making the reserve risers coming without any obstacle. At this point, it doesn't matter velcro or tuck tabs!
Think about a base jump! Can you imagine one riser get caught under one tuck tab for less than a second!! Off-heading opening!!!! And if there is a wall behind you, I think the wall will try to eat ya!
Cheers,

Gus Marinho

[Dolph 0]

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I jump a vector II.

A rigger did a few mods to it, cost me $60.

I freefly, have had no problems. Was well worth it for my first rig

That was basically what my freefly pal and brother-in-law said to me.

At 2400 meters, his canopy decided it had enough freedom to open up. Around 5 seconds earlier, I had been spock'ing him. Canopy opened up while he was in a head up position, malfunctioned and had to be cut away. Could have killed both of us. Since that incident, I do not freefly with people who have rigs that have been modified to be freefly friendly. Seen too many mods that just don't work.

Was his last jump on that rig - he got a G4 about a week after.

[peek 20]

You know, the more I read of this thread, the more I think that some of these rigs that people have experienced problems with are not just because they don't have the latest style riser covers and bridle covers.....

For example, all of my rigs are BOC pilot chute and have about 1 to 1.5 inches of bridle exposed going from under the right side main container flap to the pilot chute pouch.

The flap holds the bridle so tight that there is no way it is going anywhere regardless of speed or body orientation.

And the "tongue" on the main flap? It fits tightly enough that there is no way the flap is coming open.

I'm beginning to think that these are older (and bigger) rigs that people are using smaller main canopies with, and are not all that tight in the main container. (Also perhaps their pilot chute pouch were designed for larger pilot chutes and are not very tight.)

Also, even if a riser cover comes open there is no way a toggle should ever get loose if it is designed well (Velcroless) or if it is maintained well if it has Velcro.

I'm so puzzled by this talk. How are you guys making this gear fail you?

Remember, rigs are a system, where all of the parts of the system must work together. If they don't there can be problems that may appear to be the fault of something that is not really to blame.

[hookitt 0]

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I'm so puzzled by this talk. How are you guys making this gear fail you?

Experienced freeflying riggers have a better advantage understanding Vector IIs than new skydivers. Even the ones that "have had no problems"

Your question is a fair one but it's not fair to believe people with limited experience both skydiving and rigging would grasp what can happen. Even tight Vector IIs allow flaps to come open.

It is easy for air to get under the reserve flap and flip it open. The main pin cover doesn't fit very tight on most Vector IIs. If it is fairly snug, present the side of the rig to the air. As the air hits the side of the main cover flap, it easily flips it open.

The riser covers are long. They cover the riser completely because they curve in slightly. Present the back of the rig to the air, it gets in the loose portion of the riser cover and often peels it open.

If the rig is in a yoke to earth position, much of the riser can come out and be hanging over the arm. Good Velcro or Velcro less toggles may, or may not hold. I've seen both occur.

New skydivers can't be expected to know failure modes of a rig. Knowing what the rig is supposed to look like, how 3 rings work and such is expected but to most skydivers, failure modes don't present themselves until a failure occurs. Then it's obvious.

I've seen enough occurrences long ago that I know the failure modes, and can see failure modes with ease. A new jumper doesn't know he is causing the rig to fail and was probably told it could handle it.

As previously stated, new Velcro and a bridle cover, doesn’t make a Vector II System "freefly friendly"

Your rig (even according to your description) is probably not suited for 3 D flying. I've watched enough problems (big and small) occur to ever suggest it.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[peek 20]

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Your question is a fair one but it's not fair to believe people with limited experience both skydiving and rigging would grasp what can happen.

Agreed, but shouldn't we expect people to know to 1. stow things well, and 2. make sure they are tight? If not, perhaps there is something missing in training now.

My knowledge of this was gained when I had just a few jumps. I simply watched what my mentors did.