Ethical Question

[Gary73 8]

A few weeks ago I had a rig for sale in the Classifieds section. I got a response from a DZO who wrote that the rig would be perfect for a new jumper at his dropzone. "Hey, great", I thought, "a DZO who's looking out for his newbies!" Then he asked me to sell it to him for $200 less than the asking price so that he could make a profit by selling it to the newbie at full price. (I'm not speculating, BTW: he actually told me that.) I was pretty disgusted, but just wrote back that I'd rather not drop the price. Never heard back from him, and later sold the rig elsewhere for the asking price.

So anyway, what do you guys think? Was the DZO acting in an ethical manner?

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[Baksteen 84]

First, your own sig seems appropriate here.
Second, there's nothing wrong with him making a profit, but I would have definitely had problems with the idea of him buying it from you for a reasonable price and selling it on to some unsuspecting newb for more than the actual value.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[BIGUN 1,075]

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So anyway, what do you guys think? Was the DZO acting in an ethical manner?

1. S/He told you up front what s/he was wanting to do... s/he could have bought it AND added $200.00, then sold it to the newbie - but they didn't do that.
2. S/He was making you a firm offer and "if" the newbie didn't want it, then there needs to be some compensation for carrying costs till the next potential buyer.
3. How is this any different than offering someone a commission to sell your product or services?
4. Did you offer any form of compensation or just expect the DZO to spend a couple of days involved in a transaction as "a favor?"

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Squeak 17]

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4. Did you offer any form of compensation or just expect the DZO to spend a couple of days involved in a transaction as "a favor?"

WTF the DZO contected HIM for the sale, much like walking into a store off the street, there is NO way the DZO deserve ANY form of compo. The DZO was trying to make $200 from a potential sale, where he can try to talk a newbie into buying "the right" gear

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Thanatos340 1]

DZO`s are trying to make a living just like the rest of us. Making $200 on $2K to $3K Transaction sounds completely reasonable to me. A DZO is a Business Owner. They need to make a living and gear sales is one way that some DZO`s help pay the bills. As long as they are HONEST (and it certainly sounds like this one was being Honest and upfront) there is nothing wrong with making a reasonable amount as the middleman.

[format 0]

Which planet are you from? (your profile doesn't show it)

Oh you guys can be really entertaining!

What goes around, comes later.

[davelepka 4]

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So anyway, what do you guys think? Was the DZO acting in an ethical manner?

Yes. 100% ethical.

It is reasonable for a DZO expect to be paid for his time and efforts in locating and purchasing gear for a student.

This DZO went one step further, and instead of marking up a rig to create his profit, he asked the seller to take the hit, and insulated the student from the mark-up. The DZO could have easily purchased the rig for the asking price, and had the student pay extra to cover the mark-up.

Do I think it's reasonable for the DZO to ask the seller to discount the rig so he can make a profit. No way. What the buyer intends to do with the rig after the sale is of no consequence to the seller (safety concerns aside). The seller recieves no benefit based on dealing with a DZO, or the fact that the rig is being re-sold to another party, and should not be expected to take a loss because of it.

[popsjumper 2]

I don't know which one YOU are from but welcome to Earth, dude!


Gary...FWIW...
I see no problem here. The DZO was going to sell it to the youngster for the same price YOU would have sold it to the youngster. I see no harm in the DZO asking. At the very least, he/she was being honest and up-front about the whole thing. I would appreciate his/her honesty...IMHO, it shows a level of integrity on the part of the DZO.

Besides, it never hurts to ask and haggling is an acceptable form of negotiation.

Note that I'm not arguing against your decision to NOT lower the price...that's also an acceptable form of negotiation and it's all well and good.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

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So anyway, what do you guys think? Was the DZO acting in an ethical manner?

Well I don't think it was unethical because the DZO was up front with his plans and it is not unethical to try to make a profit. Do I think the DZO was acting in the best interest of the student? No I don't or the DZO would have steered the student to the rig. However, ethics implies a moral duty and to me there is no moral duty here for the DZO especially if the DZO sells and buys used gear for profit. Put another way if the same student buyer wanted to purchase your rig directly are you morally obligated to tell him of better deals on similar equipment elsewhere if you know about them.

I think you did the right thing by turning down the offer and cutting out the middle man. You got your asking price and thats great.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[BIGUN 1,075]

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the DZO contected HIM for the sale, much like walking into a store off the street

I don't guess I get the analogy. I know of many people, myself included that walk into a store and ask for a discount. My point was, the DZO was upfront with the seller about why the request. If the DZO were nefarious, they could have purchased it for the full amount and overcharged the newbie and taken advantage of their lack of knowledge.

For example, If you are in the real estate business and a couple has given you a price range and some criteria and you find a house meeting that criteria and price range and approach the seller asking to be compensated for bringing the two together... is that unethical?

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The DZO was trying to make $200 from a potential sale, where he can try to talk a newbie into buying "the right" gear

That's an assumption. Maybe the newbie had asked the DZO for help in finding gear and the DZO was trying to make money for the time & effort. If someone says, "I'm looking for some good used gear, but I only have $3500 to spend" and someone spends a couple of days looking for them, finds it for the $3500.00, calls the seller and explains the situation... the assumption is they're trying to screw over the newbie? Trying to make money for your time and effort is not unethical.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[headoverheels 291]

Jeez, Gary, it's not like you are some kid or never been in the skydiving business, or only been jumping 30 years. I wouldn't frown too much on anyone doing that, much less someone who makes their living selling skydive stuff. I once agreed to put my rig on commission with the local DZ shop. As I was taking it in, some newby asked if it was for sale. I could have stiffed the shop, but told the guy to buy it from them, which cost me 15%. (okay, I was actually inside the shop at the time).

[DSE 3]

When the DZO sells the rig to the newbie, not only is he entitled to making a profit on his time to find the rig, make the phone call, check it out when it arrives, and then sell it to the newbie, I feel he's also warranting to the newbie that it's a jumpable rig, being paid for his experience and knowledge, which benefits the newbie as he/she knows they are getting something that won't be unsafe in the air.
Additionally, the DZO will more or less be providing support for the rig until the newbie figures it out. That too, will take time. Shouldn't he get some small compensation for this?

If you didn't want to sell the rig at a 200.00 discount, there is nothing wrong with that, either. Seems to me tho, the DZO was being *very* ethical in trying to sell the student a rig at it's value, and asking you if you'd mind discounting it. Have you never asked for a discount on anything? Were you being unethical when you did?

[skybytch 259]

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Shouldn't he get some small compensation for this?

No way. He should do all that for free. Profit is a dirty word. You shouldn't make money off your skydiving brothers and sisters, that's just wrong.

[airtwardo 6]

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Shouldn't he get some small compensation for this?

No way. He should do all that for free. Profit is a dirty word. You shouldn't make money off your skydiving brothers and sisters, that's just wrong.

Yeah...if the DZO were 'really' an ethical kinda guy, he would have researched, found and bought the rig at the advertised price, and them let the n00b make no interest payments on it for two years...with free repacks!

The gall of some businessmen...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[gemini 0]

Yeah Lisa that's the ticket! FREE.

While we're at it why do jumps cost so much? The DZO should let us jump for free since he makes so much profit from the tandems.

Blue skies,

Jim

[airtwardo 6]

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Yeah Lisa that's the ticket! FREE.

While we're at it why do jumps cost so much? The DZO should let us jump for free since he makes so much profit from the tandems.

JUMP FOR FREE?!

He should be PAYING us...gives the Tandems something to watch while with winds die down!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[MattMazzocco 0]

I think its funny that he was so up front about his request. Ultimately he was telling you that his commission for selling your rig would be 200 bucks if you chose to accept. Nothing wrong with that. It takes time and effort to put this kind of transaction together (assuming the DZO was buying gear that was as close to what the student NEEDS, not just gear to make a buck) and in that case he is being payed for his time, and his knowledge. As far as you taking the hit for the student i wouldnt have done it knowing that i could sell it for more money. As a student i understand that i will most likely pay a markup on my first gear purchase since i have no idea what to look for, or even where to start looking.

Shit, tell that guy to find me some gear

[RevJim 0]

Jesus Christ! Pannies in a wad through this whole thread!

What's throwing people off is the term DZO.

What if it was a TI? A coach? Some gear store owner?

Get a grip, it's common place, but it most circles it's called a finders fee...

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[Gary73 8]

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but if I see something that will benefit someone I just tell them about it. I don't expect or even want to be paid for something that costs me nothing more than a few minutes of my time. Would you guys charge a newbie to change a closing loop or explain where to expect turbulence in the landing area?

I don't expect people to do everything for free, mind you. I charge $45 to do a reserve I&R (including any minor repairs), for example, but this DZO was asking the equivalent of four I&Rs just for the few minutes he spent online. He wasn't even going to pay for shipping. Seems like a pretty outrageous hourly rate, not to mention a pretty large finder's fee on a $1,500 sale.

As for the comparison to selling things on commission or consignment or something, in that case there are expenses and risks involved, not to mention paperwork and taxes. In this case the DZO had almost none of that: he was certain that he had a customer.

I'm not a saint or a communist. I believe in Free Enterprise and making a fair wage. But a lot of good people donated a few minutes here and there bringing me into the sport. When I get the chance to pass that on it makes me feel better than anything that a few bucks could buy me.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[RevJim 0]

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I charge $45 to do a reserve I&R (including any minor repairs)

Does that price include Racers?

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. It probably was a bit steep to ask for that much off, but it certainly wasn't an ethics problem.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[Nightingale 0]

Who knows how long the guy has been looking for the right rig for the student? It may have been a few minutes online, and it may have been hours.

[taylor.freefall 0]

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Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but if I see something that will benefit someone I just tell them about it. I don't expect or even want to be paid for something that costs me nothing more than a few minutes of my time. Would you guys charge a newbie to change a closing loop or explain where to expect turbulence in the landing area?

I don't expect people to do everything for free, mind you. I charge $45 to do a reserve I&R (including any minor repairs), for example, but this DZO was asking the equivalent of four I&Rs just for the few minutes he spent online. He wasn't even going to pay for shipping. Seems like a pretty outrageous hourly rate, not to mention a pretty large finder's fee on a $1,500 sale.

As for the comparison to selling things on commission or consignment or something, in that case there are expenses and risks involved, not to mention paperwork and taxes. In this case the DZO had almost none of that: he was certain that he had a customer.

I'm not a saint or a communist. I believe in Free Enterprise and making a fair wage. But a lot of good people donated a few minutes here and there bringing me into the sport. When I get the chance to pass that on it makes me feel better than anything that a few bucks could buy me.

I agree. As if life's not hard enough that you can't help someone out. The DZO, in the long run, would have probably got a lifetime customer and a good reputation through word of mouth had he helped that new kid out. It could be argued that it would have made better business sense to do it as a favor. Either way IMO it still seems a bit tight arsed.

[chaoskitty 0]

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Shouldn't he get some small compensation for this?

No way. He should do all that for free. Profit is a dirty word. You shouldn't make money off your skydiving brothers and sisters, that's just wrong.

I dont think its unethical.. but kinda ballsy to ask the seller to knock $200 off the price so he can make a profit. Seller should have paid the asking price for the gear and then hand the markup to his customer.

Maybe it would be different if Gary was a gear store, trying to build a customer base, but he was just trying to get a fair price for his used gear. The middle man's profit is not his responsibility.

[SuFantasma 0]

It's not a question of ethics. It's a business transaction during which all the terms got revealed.

Had the DZO asked for $200 discount, would it really matter what was the reason ?

He did not need to reveal the intent to resell. From what I see, there is no resell clause on the sale. And the DZO is not required , either ethically or otherwise to find a used rig for a student ....

In the odd chance that he was passing the rig to the student for the DZO purchase prize plus $200.... did anyone bother to ask if the DZO is a rigger and would pass the rig along at no additional fee?

Just wondering....

Your $0.98 ?

Y yo, pa' vivir con miedo, prefiero morir sonriendo, con el recuerdo vivo".
- Ruben Blades, "Adan Garcia"

[Squeak 17]

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the DZO contected HIM for the sale, much like walking into a store off the street

I don't guess I get the analogy. I know of many people, myself included that walk into a store and ask for a discount. My point was, the DZO was upfront with the seller about why the request. If the DZO were nefarious, they could have purchased it for the full amount and overcharged the newbie and taken advantage of their lack of knowledge.

For example, If you are in the real estate business and a couple has given you a price range and some criteria and you find a house meeting that criteria and price range and approach the seller asking to be compensated for bringing the two together... is that unethical?

.

My response AS QUOTED was in direct reply to your assertion of

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4. Did you offer any form of compensation or just expect the DZO to spend a couple of days involved in a transaction as "a favor?"

Gary was SELLING the gear, there is no way he should have been expected to give ANY compensation

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?