Question for Vigil users

[TheBachelor 5]

Vigil's website has the following statement:

"Vigil is the most accurate AAD on the market. It becomes operational in a zone of 150ft/46m above or under takeoff level. To avoid unexpected firing,
you must switch OFF your Vigil before traveling in a closed vehicle (boot or trunk) due to possible air pressure variation."

I asked Vigil to clarify this statement, and their recomendation is just what the statement says: Turn it off before leaving the DZ with your rig in the trunk. This seems that it could be an expensive lesson if you forget to turn it off, which I could see doing since I've never shut my Cypres off at the end of the day.

My question is: Do you turn your Vigil off before putting your rig in your trunk? Has anyone left it on, and had their Vigil fire?

There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years...

[NWFlyer 2]

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My question is: Do you turn your Vigil off before putting your rig in your trunk? Has anyone left it on, and had their Vigil fire?

I don't think I've ever turned it off and I've never had it fire. The only time I've made a point of turning it off at the end of the jumping day is when I'm about to take my rig on a commercial aircraft.

I imagine this is a CYA type recommendation even though such an occurence is highly unlikely. I'm imagining maybe some sort of weird combination of factors such as descending down a big hill at a high rate of speed on a particularly warm day or something. But I can't imagine what that circumstance would be or why Vigil would really be concerned. Weird recommendation.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[dragon2 0]

Cypres says basically the same in their manual.

The variation in pressure can fool your AAD for a while, so if you go jumping right after having been in a closed car (ie, the DZ van) without rebooting your AAD, you could have a premature AAD fire. It has happened.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

From what I heard is that the sudden pressure change of slamming a door can cause it to fire. When I first got it, it crossed my mind but since I always leave a window open I don't really need to worry about it.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[NWFlyer 2]

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Cypres says basically the same in their manual.

The variation in pressure can fool your AAD for a while, so if you go jumping right after having been in a closed car (ie, the DZ van) without rebooting your AAD, you could have a premature AAD fire. It has happened.

That's a really good point... I was thinking about it more as "do you turn it off at the end of the day" rather than "turn it on (reboot) at the beginning of the day)." I always turn my AAD on when I get to the DZ in the morning (especially since, as we saw at Perris last year, turning your AAD on somewhere other than the DZ can have tragic consequences). I guess if it were still on from the previous day's jumping I'd make a point of turning it off and turning it back on (but generally the timing doesn't work out that way... it's shut itself off sometime overnight).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[TrickyDicky 0]

doesnt the cypres re-asses the "ground level" every so often? So if you drive to another dz, and wait long enough, the ground level will be changed?

But obviously safest to turn it off and back on again.

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[sdctlc 0]

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doesnt the cypres re-asses the "ground level" every so often? So if you drive to another dz, and wait long enough, the ground level will be changed?

But obviously safest to turn it off and back on again.

I dont think itdoes as there was a fatality at Perris last year where the girl had turned her cypress on at a different place, lower if I am remembering correctly, and could not get the main and the cypress did not firesince the altitude was calibrated to a lower turn on location.

I could be remembering incorrectly but I do remember thinking that the cypress obviously does not calibrate to ground level over time... Please correct me if I am wrong.. It sure wont be the first time..

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[sdctlc 0]

Link to Thread

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[linestretch 0]

Think of this though....

Your rig is in your car, your are driving say 30 minutes, and the cypres/vigil is constantly monitering the slightest different in pressure changes=battery usage. I always turn it off before the drive home. I'm not worried about it firing.

my2cents

my pics & stuff!

[mattjw916 2]

I used to leave my AAD and audible on when I left the DZ for the day, but once when I was driving across New Mexico from Arizona I heard my Pro-Dytter warning alarm go off while I was cruising on the freeway. Now, I always shut my dytter and AAD off. There is no reason to leave them on except laziness.

An AAD firing because you slam the trunk sounds like an urban legend in the making.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[TheBachelor 5]

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[
I imagine this is a CYA type recommendation even though such an occurence is highly unlikely. I'm imagining maybe some sort of weird combination of factors such as descending down a big hill at a high rate of speed on a particularly warm day or something. But I can't imagine what that circumstance would be or why Vigil would really be concerned. Weird recommendation.

I asked Vigil about this, and their concern was not with elevation changes in the drive, but with the fact/opinion that the air pressure in your trunk could change greatly when opening or closing the trunk. I was just wondering what people saw in the "real world" versus in a CYA statement by the manufacturer.

There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years...

[skydiver30960 0]

Actually, a guy at my first DZ had this happen to him, only IIRC it was with an FXC rather than anything current-generation... had JUST repacked the reserve, put it in the back seat of his car, slammed the back door to go back into the trailer, and had the pleasure of watching the pilotchute bounce off the ceiling of the car...


Elvisio "spinner of yarns" Rodriguez

[Reginald 0]

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But I can't imagine what that circumstance would be or why Vigil would really be concerned.

Because they know more than you do and they know it is a problem.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[NWFlyer 2]

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Because they know more than you do

True dat. That's why I made sure to point out that it is my imagination that is limited... not that they were wrong.

[USPA 0]

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An AAD firing because you slam the trunk sounds like an urban legend in the making.

Not an urban legend, if I'm not mistaken it happend in The Netherlands at least once with a student cypres (1).

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[mattjw916 2]

Urban legends are usually based on some modicum of truth. I never said it didn't happen. But once again, if people read and adhere to the manual (which from several incidents and even some deaths, it is apparent that many people don't) we wouldn't have a lot of these stories. I've heard a lot of sketchy FXC 12000 stories, but also saves too. I'd never heard that particular Cypres story though but since it was a student model, I'm not surprised.

Oh well, I turn everything off before I head home anyway.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[kelpdiver 2]

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But I can't imagine what that circumstance would be or why Vigil would really be concerned.

Because they know more than you do and they know it is a problem.

The Vigil manual is pretty conservative in its guideilnes. People have faulted them for suggesting that the unit be turned off if you ride the plane down, unless like the Cypres one, but I don't think the risk of it firing are any different. (aside from worst case of the mode being switched to student)

Matt, how fast were you 'cruising' to get a dytter warning?

[brianfry713 0]

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So if you drive to another dz, and wait long enough, the ground level will be changed?

No. RTFM
Page 16 of the Cypres 2 users guide: When to switch on or reset

Any time you change elevation on the ground > 30 feet, reset the Cypres. If you leave the DZ, reset the Cypres. If in doubt, reset the Cypres. If take off and landing differ in altitude > 30 feet, set the Cypres with the elevation difference (every jump).

As far as switching it off, I almost always do at the end of the day or before driving with it. I think with a Cypres 1 I remember hearing it wasn't recommended because it used more battery power. With a Cypres 2 they guarantee the battery for 4 years no matter what.

The main reason is I drive a fast car and think I can exceed 78 mph vertical. There are also lots of hills I drive up and down to get to the DZ. To demonstrate the math imagine I've just ascended over 1,500 feet vertical and am now driving down a 31 degree slope at 155 mph, putting my descent rate at 79 mph. I'd rather not worry about it, and I don't want to have to slow down because I'm worried about my Cypres. I'd also turn my Cypres off if I ever had to land with the plane.

I've had my Neptune log jumps on commercial airlines, while driving to/from the DZ, and I've heard people have had it log a jump while landing with the plane. I also frequently hear my Dytter and Neptune freefall alarms and 1,000 feet climb beeps while driving.

BASE 1224, Senior Parachute Rigger, CPL ASEL IA, AGI, IGI
USPA Coach & UPT Tandem Instructor, PRO, Altimaster Field Support Representative

[sundevil777 94]

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As far as switching it off, I almost always do at the end of the day or before driving with it. I think with a Cypres 1 I remember hearing it wasn't recommended because it used more battery power.

Below is a link to a simple set of tests done to disprove that:

http://www.pcprg.com/cyprespc.htm

So, consider that the unit uses about/at most around 100 times less power at 'rest' compared to when the LED is on/calibrating. Turning off the unit takes, say 10 seconds or so. So if the unit were on for 100*10=1000 seconds or about 16 minutes, then you are better to turn it off. Even with the assumptions that I haven't listed, or even if it is 1000 times less power, then it would be about 2.5 hours for the break even point. So I think it is fairly safe to make the obvious conclusion.

The reason why the battery voltage is lower when the ammeter was connected is because a parallel circuit is established, the measurement affects the system by draining some power. A more expensive meter with a higher impedence would use less.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[riggermick 6]

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An AAD firing because you slam the trunk sounds like an urban legend in the making.

Not an urban legend, if I'm not mistaken it happend in The Netherlands at least once with a student cypres (1).

Seen it happen!! quite a few times over the years. Trunks slammed that is. Back in the day (sounds quaint doesn't it?)
If one wanted to test an FXC 12000 to ensure a proper pin pull, one would place a sealed plastic bag over the sensing unit and squeeze!! That's all it would take to activate the unit, and that's what most feild riggers used to test the accuracy of their installation of the "power plate"/ VS pin location. Albiet unsientific in its mechanations of the correct firing parameters, it was however a wonderful guide to the mechanical placement of the assoaited hardware, which after all was the point of the whole exercise. Funny how things become "twisted" over time.

Mick.

[P-dro 0]

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An AAD firing because you slam the trunk sounds like an urban legend in the making.

Sorry to disapoint you but one of my friend has had a Vigil fire after he took the train with it and passed into a tunnel, the instant increase of pressure triggered the Vigil... Granted it's not really car related, but if it happens in this situation, why not when slamming a car trunk?

[larsrulz 0]

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Sorry to disapoint you but one of my friend has had a Vigil fire after he took the train with it and passed into a tunnel, the instant increase of pressure triggered the Vigil... Granted it's not really car related, but if it happens in this situation, why not when slamming a car trunk?

Trains experience huge pressure differences. Not to dispute you, just that I would doubt that much pressure is exerted by a slammed trunk, given that they aren't sealed.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[kelpdiver 2]

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The main reason is I drive a fast car and think I can exceed 78 mph vertical. There are also lots of hills I drive up and down to get to the DZ. To demonstrate the math imagine I've just ascended over 1,500 feet vertical and am now driving down a 31 degree slope at 155 mph, putting my descent rate at 79 mph.

The steepest streets in San Francisco (and apparently the country) are Filbert, and 22nd St, each peaking at 31.5%. Neither would be survivable at 100+ speeds.

For a sustained pitch, I suspect it would be hard to find even a mile of road over 20%.

[sixtysevengt5oo 0]

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For a sustained pitch, I suspect it would be hard to find even a mile of road over 20%.

leeland pass, often thought of as one of the most dangerous driveable mountain passes in the US has a max downhill pitch of 11% and i doubt if that even last for a mile, if you get to a 79 mph descent in a car you have bigger things to worry about than a cypress firing

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[riggerrob 558]

I turn off all AADs before taking them off the DZ.
It does not matter whether I am traveling by car or airplane.