Collapsable Pilot Chute on a Sabre 190. Thoughts?

[GravityGirl 0]

Another "Pro" for the collapsable PC is getting familiar with it.

If you learn to pack with a standard PC, you will develope a habit of not cocking your PC. Then when you get one, you'll have to retrain yourself to do it. If you forget to cock it, you'll end up with a PC in tow.

>>Personally I think if I bought something any bigger I would spend more money trying to downsize again before the end of next summer. <<

Famous last words. Did you ever consider that you could buy a used 210 or 220, put 50 jumps on it, and sell it for what you paid for it? Well. You could.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[darrenspooner 0]

You know, I know we need to promote safety and encourage responsibility, but we seem to be obsessed with the relationship between jump numbers and competence. I mean, someone with 100 jumps warning someone with 12 about canopy size. WTF! I've done 150 jumps, but I'm a complete retard. I don't jump regularly enough to ever improve. I accept that and I don't put myself out there and take risks. But I've seen some 30-jump hotdogs that are naturals. Gifted. Like Wayne Rooney's. Should we be shitting on Wayne Rooney because he's trying to do stuff (at 18) that 30 year olds are only supposed to do (especially when he's doing it better than them)? By the way, for the non-english folks, Wayne Rooney is an 18-year old soccer god.

12 jumps, 100 jumps, think about competence, not ratios. That's what I think.

[billvon 2,435]

>Should we be shitting on Wayne Rooney because he's trying to
>do stuff (at 18) that 30 year olds are only supposed to do . . .

Not at all! But if Wayne Rooney wanted to fly 747's, I think people would still suggest he starts out getting instruction in smaller aircraft.

On a soccer field, you can screw up pretty bad and not die. That's not true in the air. If the whole planet was foam rubber, then the issue would largely go away - people would hit the ground at 40mph under their tiny canopy, think "you know, I need some more work before I try such a small canopy" - and the problem would fix itself. Unfortunately, many people don't learn lessons like that until impact, and it is often the last thing they learn. You can't learn much from a fatal impact.

[skymedic 0]

Here's what John Leblanc sent me on the subject a while ago.

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Hi Marc,

It is quite common to not understand the problems associated with an inflated pilot chute on big canopies. What people don't understand is that it is not just the amount of drag produced by the pilot chute. The bigger issue is where that drag is applied: to the top of the canopy in a backwards direction. Having the drag applied here causes several things:

First, it attempts to rotate the canopy back into a flare, thus reducing the amount of flare power remaining.

Second, this "dragging through the air" flight regime makes the canopy bounce around more in light turbulence, making it more difficult to get the canopy to fly a smooth stable approach at a constant airspeed. (A smooth steady state approach is a big help in getting consistent landings.

Third, this extra drag tends to make the canopy flare a bit when making quick heading corrections on final approach. Eventually, that canopy noses over slightly and gains speed again, only to repeat this oscillation a bit more mellow. This makes timing the flare a big challenge, as the best flare from each stage of this oscillation is a bit different! This problem is much more pronounced on bigger canopies, especially those that have a larger section of tail pulled down by each control line, such as PD bigger than 190, Sabres bigger than 190, and all tandem canopies.

Fourth the pilot chute can distort the canopy as the end cells try to out fly the center cell. You can sometimes see this as a bend in the canopy at the center cell, when looking up at it in flight. This causes a change in angle of attack in specific areas of the canopy. It results in more lift being generated in the center cells, but less lift being generated by the end cells. This causes the end cells to be loaded too lightly, making them more prone to folding under from a side gust or downdraft in turbulence. This situation is aggravated by using quick toggle movements to make small heading changes, especially when there is a left, right left sort of thing going on with the toggles. (I know this sounds sounds silly, but watch people on final approach and you'll see this a lot.)

The Collapsible pilot chute will be of benefit to this jumper in a few ways:

First, the canopy will be less susceptible to turbulence.

Second, the canopy will have a more effective flare, particularly when making less than optimum approaches when small corrections are made during the last 10 to 15 seconds. (Its best to plan approaches so that these corrections aren't necessary.)

Third, in the event that the jumper wants to learn about using front risers, the canopy will respond better in this mode, with less riser movement being required, and more potential gained. This is because the adverse affects listed above become more pronounced with added airspeed, so vicious cycle starts to occur: The jumper doesn't get much out of a bit of front risers, so he pulls more riser, which causes more drag on the pilot chute which rotates the canopy back more which gives less effect which causes the jumper to pull more front riser and so on.

Collapsing the pilot chute will produce little extra airspeed at normal full glide, but it will change the handling and effectiveness of the flare. Making sure the brake lines aren't pulling down the tail too much is another. On the Sabre 230, a slight amount of tail pulled down is ok. (Check our web site for trim specs.)

Collapsible pilot chutes are not only for the small high performance canopies, but also help conservative jumpers using conservative canopies to get more out of them. They are particularly important on older F-111 nine cell canopies, such as the PD series. There isn't much excess energy brought to the flare on these old canopies. My recommendation to get rid of the pilot chute has helped many people get better landings on these canopies. The difference in flare power is a bit less noticeable on the Sabres, but it is there.

All due respect for you DZ owner, who might be just trying to slow down an overly aggressive jumper. He has a very difficult job trying to keep everyone safe. I don't know either of the people involved, but I respectfully state that the collapsible pilot chute is a big help on big canopies too. I would like to point out that these effects are real, and removing the pilot chute will produce more consistent canopy piloting performance. Experienced test jumpers on our staff get far better and more accurate results with a collapsible installed. And if you don't have your equipment set up properly, how will you get the experience needed?

Once you've worked out the steps to create a state of continuing improvements in technique, there is probably no other thing that has a bigger effect than collapsing the pilot chute, other than making sure the brake lines are set with too much tail pulled down at full glide.

Please let me know if this helps.


Regards,

John LeBlanc

Also..collapse your slider...and mod your leg straps. it's nice when you start sit flying.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[jakee 1,259]

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Gifted. Like Wayne Rooney's. Should we be shitting on Wayne Rooney because he's trying to do stuff (at 18) that 30 year olds are only supposed to do (especially when he's doing it better than them)? By the way, for the non-english folks, Wayne Rooney is an 18-year old soccer god.

Wayne Rooney has been playing football since he learnt to walk. 12 landings on big canopies is not the same thing. I really don't think its even possible to accurately guage someones competence (and also attitude) from such a small amount of jumps.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Big Red... Et All...

My 2 cents...

I used to jump a collapsable pilot chute back when I jumped a PD190 and experienced better flight charcteristics / landings as described in John leBanch's words that someone cut-and-pasted in up-post. However, I wouldn't say that the canopy was unlandable with a regular pilot chute. Yes, a collapsable becomes more "useful", if you will, as wing loading goes up (i.e. canopy size goes down), but it can still work and give some benifits to a bigger canopy as John said.

Anyway, I too was concerned about Big_Red's prospective wing-loading of 1.21:1 with only 12 jumps. Sounds like he's at least trying to do the right things, talk to people here, talk to his instructors, learn, get some coaching, etc.

I won't drag the thread off, but something popped up in this thread that I'm always currious about here on DZ.com and when hearing similar converstions at the local DZ... it has to do with "down sizing"... it usually goes something like someone says they want to downsize... why?... "well, that's what people do, right?"... "I want to jump somthing smaller"... why?... "they fly better"... my point is, a lot of times it seems peoples reasons for wanting to donwsize aren't really much of a reason at all... its more of folks following a fashion trend... now don't go jumpin' all over me... okay, I know that'll happen... just take that as a general statement and not a specific directed at any one person.

[davelepka 4]

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the purpose of this thread was to get peoples thoughts on some mods I have been thinking of in regards to my Rig

Would it make you feel better if I started another thread with the title "Big Red's big ideas about wing loading"?

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I have faith in my Instructor (who has watched 11 of my 12 jumps) and am confident in his ability to look at my skill level and make an appropiate recommendation for Canopy Size.

No offense to your instructor, but after watching 11 landings, how does he have a sufficent amount of information to make that judgement. It's only 11 landings, all done on student jumps under the supervision of instrucotrs, who were monitoring, and making judgements on your behalf regarding weather and spotting.

How will your performance record stand up over a larger cross section of jumps? How will you preform in weather conditions not suited for a student, but passable for a licensed jumper? How will you perform under the added stress of an off field landing?

Can you answer the above questions with any certainty? Can your instructor?

Also, you relaize that your experience on a 220 is good, but that a 190 is 15% smaller than that, and also represents leapfrog right over the 210 class of canopies.

Your instructor is making an awful lot assumptions about your future performance, and the only who satnds to loose anything is you. Your instructor won't loose any sleep, his rating, any money, or suffer nay pain if you should hurt yourself under canopy. You, on the other hand will loose all of the above.

Your instructor is a person, and like any other person, isn't perfect. Earning an instructional rating isn't that hard. Any jackass can do it. It doens't make them god like, and give them the ability to see into the future. Think about that.

The money issue is the shiities reason ever to jump gear thats not right for you. You won't be jumping for several months up there. Post your 190 for sale on DZ.com, and spend the proceeds on a 210. Youshould be able to get a 210 Sabre for the price of your 190 Sabre. It's easy. Repeat the process in reverse in 100 jumps or so.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Your choice of canopy with respect to your experience notwithstanding, a collapsable PC would be beneficial.

A kill-line collapsable will, however, increase the risk of a PC in tow. All you have to do is forget to cock it, and it won't inflate when you throw it. One way to avoid this mistake is to have two separate points in your pack job when you cock the PC. You are less likely to miss it completely if you have planned to do it twice.

Also, on many rigs, it is possible to see whether or not the PC is cocked when you do a main pin check.

I agree with the others that you may need to reevaluate your present choice of canopies, but that is irrelevant to whether or not the collapsable PC will be better than a non-collapsable PC.

For Great Deals on Gear

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

Alright I am not here to get flamed, althought the likely hood is probably high, but every time someone comes on these forums and ask the question "What gear is right for me?" 90% of the responses are "Ask your instructor, he knows best, he has seen you fly etc..". Then that person comes back with gear which is what his instructor/rigger advised him to get and he gets flamed for having the wrong gear and that his instructor/rigger was wrong. I am not sure if Big Red is preparing to jump this now or when he gets his "A", but to me the advice that is given is conflicting. Do you ask your instructor and follow his advise? Or do you go by what everyone here says to do? Seems confusing to me.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[davelepka 4]

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90% of the responses are "Ask your instructor, he knows best, he has seen you fly etc..". Then that person comes back with gear which is what his instructor/rigger advised him to get and he gets flamed for having the wrong gear and that his instructor/rigger was wrong.

You're talking about another situation in which a jumper will ask, "Would this be OK for me?". In that case, the only one who can make a judgement of any kind is someone who has personal knowledge of the jumpers experiences and skill level. Even then, there is no gurantee that the instructor will give sound advice.

This jumper has already asked his instructor, and the advice appears to be less than ideal.

In the end, the jumper will make his own decision, based on all available information. To that end, I provided him with my views on the deciesion, and the factors surrounding it.

The choices you make are all your own, and should be arrived at through careful consideration of the data, devoid of emotion or peer pressure. My general line of thinking is that when it comes to canopy sizing, I you have doubts, go bigger. There is no penalty what so ever to jupming the larger of two canopies. There may, however, be a penalty for going with the smaller canopy.

[masterrigger1 2]

Red,
No matter what the size of the canopy, the canopy will fly better/smoother without the constant PC oscilation from an inflated PC.

The inflated PC causes airfoil distortion which combined with turbulence can cause some issues during landings.


To answer your question, I would recommend a Collaspable PC.
It is also recommended in the owners manual.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[skybytch 259]

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Do you ask your instructor and follow his advise?

That depends on if the advice being given. If said advice goes against what the manufacturer of the canopy in question recommends, then imho that advice is not worth listening to. If said advice goes against what recognized experts in the field say (Brian Germain, for example), then imho that advice is not worth listening to.

I know several very experienced people with multiple pieces of paper that say they should know something who consistently advise novice jumpers to buy canopies that are way beyond their ability to safely land in a worst case scenario - an example would be a kid with 20 jumps who was sold a Crossfire he'd load at 1.2 and an older design reserve he'd load the same (luckily the kid talked to a few other people before jumping it and decided to return the rig). I've heard several highly experienced instructors say that no jumper off student status, regardless of weight or experience, needs to be on a canopy bigger than a 190. A piece of paper does not mean that the person holding it knows anything at all about what size canopy is best for a novice - canopy sizing is not something that is discussed in instructional rating courses or rigger training. That guy with 1000+ jumps on a 2.0 wingloading has long ago forgotten how fast a 1.2 wingloading is to someone with 15 jumps in their logbook.

From what I've seen in almost 16 years in the sport (8 of those spent selling gear full time), people who choose conservative wingloadings for their first main stay in the sport longer than those who take the (well meaning, but imho bad) advice of these instructors. No, not primarily because they get injured or die although that happens on a too regular basis. They quit the sport because they are afraid of their gear. They aren't likely to admit that - after all, their instructors said they'd be fine on that canopy and who wants to admit that they aren't skilled enough to handle or are afraid of what was recommended to them by God? So they say they quit the sport because they got bored with it, found something else to do or a variety of other reasons.

What I'm trying to do by suggesting to people that what was recommended to them by God may not be the best choice is give them food for thought. They can and will listen to whoever they'd like, but at least they've been exposed to different opinions (including what is recommended by acknowledged experts in the field) before making their decision.

[rasmack 0]

Allow me to add this, as someone who was recently the gear-buying novice.

When I was bying, I asked any instructor I could find about choice of canopy. I mostly heard a 210 mentioned but some said 230 and some said 190. I could have gone with the 190 (as they are easier to find used) but I ended up deciding on 210. When I finally had something to demo I walked up to an instructor and gave him my exact weight and asked him if he had any problems with me jumping a 210.

My point is that many an instructor will just look at you, try to guess your weight and fling out a number. To be fair to the instructor I need to be very specific in my questioning. At least I wouldn't want to be the instructor who comes up with a guesstimate over a beer only to see his student show up the next weekend with this "fantastic bargain" that is only "slightly smaller than your recommendation. Never mind that the reserve is even smaller."

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[NWFlyer 2]

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My point is that many an instructor will just look at you, try to guess your weight and fling out a number.

That is an *excellent* point to make. I have had many people look at the canopy that I'm jumping and think that I made a *very* conservative WL choice. When I say I'm loading it at just over 1:1, they realize "Oh, she weighs more than I think she does." When I was deciding what to buy, if an instructor recommended something I would make sure that they knew my actual exit weight, not what they assumed it to be.

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

Dave and Sky, thank you for well thought out replies. I am understand a lot of points you both make, but surely something like Brians w/l chart doesn't apply to everyone. I have looked at that chart and notice that it would require me to wait until 200 jumps to fly my 170 which I have been doing since jump 31 (w/ling it at about 1.12). My instructor, or should I say friend (he prefers me to call him that), is till very much involved in my skydives. He askes questions, takes times to watch me land, and will sometimes (when he is free from tandems) come out on a fun dive with us. With a person that is still that involved in your learning stage, wouldn't it be the best idea to listen to him when he is still watching your progression? Also sky you mention about following the manufactures website. When I look at PD's site see the w/ling charts I see beginner/novice/advance/etc, yet I do not see what makes you anyone of those classes (doesn't give a jump number or liscense number) so who determines your placement?

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[davelepka 4]

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With a person that is still that involved in your learning stage, wouldn't it be the best idea to listen to him when he is still watching your progression?

You can listen to who ever you want. What I'm saying is this, if you are getting advice from one person to jump a 190, and advice from another, similarly qualified, person to jump a 210, your best bet is to go with the bigger canopy.

Regardless of what size canopy you have, you may find yourself in a challenging situation, say a tight off-field landing. When that happens, having a bigger canopy won't ever add to your problems.

Having a smaller canopy in that situation may not add to your problems either, but I cannot say that for sure. If you're going to run into a tree, the speed at which you hit the tree will be a factor in how bad it hurts. The smaller of the two canopies will be going faster.

The person who thought you should be jumping a 190 cannot say for sure that it will not add to your problems at some point. Why trust him?

[phoenixlpr 0]

3,5 years ago I've broke my ankle under a Navigator220 ~WL 1.0. It was my dumm-ass fault. I had 87 jumps, 37 in that season in 2,5 months.

It was just a tib. I can't guess what could have been under a 190,170 or 150.

You'd rather learn from my example or ....you may have yours.

[crotalus01 0]

davelepka, your post brings up a question: is there listed anywhere the average canopy speed by wingloading on a no wind day? obviously i know its going to vary by canopy make, trim etc, i am just looking for averages, for a straight in approach, no risers.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[labrys 0]

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A pilot chute is what you throw out into the air stream to pull the main parachute out of the rig.

1) Yes you had one on your tandem.
2) If you got video, no it is not the drogue you may see trailing behind you while you were in freefall.

Sorry to change topics but this confused me. I thought the tandem drogue *did* deploy the main. I guess I don't really need to know the right answer but I'm curious now...

Owned by Remi #?

[F16Driver 0]

Definitely go with the collapsible pilot chute. If you ever get to jump the same canopy with and without a collapsible you'll notice a difference. I liked it mostly because it gave me a longer flare on landing. Even on a 190 you WILL notice a difference.

As for the wing loading, you shacked it earlier. Your instructor knows you and what you're capable of. Bad advice, good advice, doesn't matter. You should do what you feel comfortable with and just except the risk (as we all do!). Remember, only you are the final authority when it comes to your safety, no one else.

I jumped a 1.1 on jump 14. I also jumped an elliptical loaded at 1:4 on jump 38 (still own this canopy). It wasn't a big deal for me, but most people on this forum will freak (even though a few have done the same as I). However, a lot of my experience as a pilot (civil and military) was helpful. Landing a hot canopy is "kind of" like landing a jet at 180 mph. You just have to know when to flare
I KNOW people will disagree with me, but it is my opinion. Remember: "Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone's got one."

I know this has been talked about before but, whatever, I was bored today. I'm sitting on the ground at Balad AB, Iraq, waiting to go fly. This AB isn't so bad, aside from the mortar attacks .

See Ya!

"I promise, I will never die."

[dragon2 0]

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There are even some people that have no business jumping hot canopies even after 100 jumps.

100 jumps is NOTHING

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[rasmack 0]

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... To say that: "By 100 jumps, by God, you'll be ready for this canopy. Not 98 or 99, but 100.", is ridiculous. There needs to be flexibility for someone's ability...

I don't think anyone is disputing this. However it does seem a bit much for an instructor to evaluate a persons skill set and come to the "prodigy" conclusion in just 12 landings. Of course if they were all 100 m swoops w. 270 approaches I will go shut up...

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I KNOW people will disagree with me, but it is my opinion. Remember: "Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone's got one."

Yep, but some of us has one that is louder than the others'

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[F16Driver 0]

Yep, but some of us has one that is louder than the others'

Won't disagree there! My a$$hole gets pretty loud sometimes. Usually after Taco Bell.

For the previous post, I was only using 100 jumps as an example. I should have clarified.

"I promise, I will never die."

[davelepka 4]

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I thought the tandem drogue *did* deploy the main.

You thought right.

[davelepka 4]

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is there listed anywhere the average canopy speed by wingloading on a no wind day?

No. Firstly, it will differ greatly with changes in desinty altitude. Second, the size and shape of the load will effect the no wind speed, not just WL.

It's just too dynamic to be meaningfully measured, and even if I could, I can't see how it would be relevant.