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Justs for clarification - this rigger did NOT pack the deployed reserve - that was done by my normal rigger prior to the cutaway. And it did open very nicely.
I thought that would be mis-understood.
You know for a fact you have a good reserve on your back. The rigger "in the far off land" only has to Inspect, Pack, Close container according to manufacturer's instructions, etc etc. This is neither a mysterious or complex process to any certified rigger. They had to prove it to the DPRE to get their ticket.
QuoteThe difference in whether you save a live comes down to the extra effort you put in. Just my two cents.
My two cents. Rigging is not about saving lives. Skydivers save their own lives everytime they make the choice to deploy a parachute. Riggers are parachute field maintenance technicians, they are certified under the same FAR as aircraft technicians. Extra effort is wonderful but all that matters for a good opening reserve is following the FAA and manufacturer's instructions.
"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken
Ken
Quote...So the question remains open - if this much attention to detail is lacking, do you trust this person with your life? Or do you get a repack with someone you trust?...
*cough*
...but basically it boils down to YOU have to have confidence in what's on YOUR back when YOU jump, so, if YOU'RE not feeling confident in YOUR Reserve repack... take it to YOUR normal rigger...
Riddler, its all well and good to post such things like this as you have here on DZ.COM. It stimulates conversation and an exchange of information; knowlege and thought is very important in skydiving. The more you know and think (and never think you know it all), the more likely it could save your life of a freind's life some day.
From just the info you've provided here, I'm cannot (and really don't want to) say one way or another whether you should trust this pack-job... it could be perfectly fine even given the "appearances" you've gined up miss-trust over, or none of those appearances could have been present and the pack-job could have an error not visable once the container is closed, the possibilities are endless...
Like I tried to say... my bad if it wasn't clear... sounds like the guy may have gotten some extra money out of you over the main inspection... first it sounded like you said it was $10, now $30, or is it you're not happy for with what you got for your $30? Discuss that with him or write it off and learn from it, your choice. As for the do over on the Capwell pin test... again, they guy either got you for some extra money for some extra work, or maybe he's confused as to AD (i.e. once its done, its done); who knows for sure. Sounds like there was enough documentation to show the CW test was done and, either he missed it, did it and still wants to be paid for it is all I'm saying; that's one of the possiblities, I'm sure there are many many more.
Remember, riggers are people too... I've known a Rigger/Person or two who are flat out dicks, wouldn't cross the road to piss on em if they were on fire, but I've watched them pack and they pack a really nice Reserve that I wouldn't have a problem having on my back...
...but in the end here, whether or not you're going to trust this real or theoretical reserve repack comes down to YOU making up YOUR MIND.
Good luck.
riggerrob 558
1. Sewing reserve packing data cards together is an obscure practice. Very few rigger shave even heard of it. It was not normal when I worked for Square One (1994 to 1998) and I only saw a handful when I worked for Adventure Sports Loft, Perris Valley, California (199 - 2001).
This is the first time I have seen anything written about sewing cards together.
3. Charging $10 to $50 to untangle a cutaway main is normal, depending upon how badly it is tangled.
As for not untwisting your steering lines, maybe they were so badly twisted that he could not get the twists out, because if you do too many jumps with twisted steering lines - and they take a "set" so bad that no one will ever be able to untwist them. The only solution is replacement.
Or maybe he was just burnt out from untwisting other lazy people's steering lines and thought you might learn something if you untwisted your own lines.
Jess!
Young jumpers these days!
Next thing you know, they will be asking Master Riggers to wipe their noses!
This is the first time I have seen anything written about sewing cards together.
3. Charging $10 to $50 to untangle a cutaway main is normal, depending upon how badly it is tangled.
As for not untwisting your steering lines, maybe they were so badly twisted that he could not get the twists out, because if you do too many jumps with twisted steering lines - and they take a "set" so bad that no one will ever be able to untwist them. The only solution is replacement.
Or maybe he was just burnt out from untwisting other lazy people's steering lines and thought you might learn something if you untwisted your own lines.
Jess!
Young jumpers these days!
Next thing you know, they will be asking Master Riggers to wipe their noses!
darnknit 0
QuoteHas anyone found anything about sewing data cards together being required?
pointers volume 2 page 55. i guess you wouldn't call it required, maybe just prudent. i would add that i don't personally see any difference between a stitch, a staple, or tape in this case.
blue stuff,
p.j.
pulling is cool. keep it in the skin
CReWLL 0
I'M NOT AN ASSHOLE ALL THE TIME :-)
riddler 0
Quotemaybe they were so badly twisted that he could not get the twists out, because if you do too many jumps with twisted steering lines - and they take a "set" so bad that no one will ever be able to untwist them.
I got them out OK. Took 4 minutes.
Edit to add - in this hypothetical scenario, the cards were not sewed, stitched, or stapled together. They were not attached at all.
Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD
darnknit 0
QuoteI got them out OK. Took 4 minutes.
if you had spent four minutes untwisting the brakelines before your cutaway, would you still be upset with the rigger that charged you ten dollars to untangle your main?
blue stuff,
p.j.
pulling is cool. keep it in the skin
ripcord4 0
QuoteQuoteHas anyone found anything about sewing data cards together being required?
pointers volume 2 page 55. i guess you wouldn't call it required, maybe just prudent. i would add that i don't personally see any difference between a stitch, a staple, or tape in this case.
blue stuff,
p.j.
That paragraph is the authors opinion / advice. It is not an FAR, therefore not mandatory. I have never sewn cards together, just stapled them carefully.
riddler 0
Quoteif you had spent four minutes untwisting the brakelines before your cutaway, would you still be upset with the rigger that charged you ten dollars to untangle your main?
I paid him $10 to untangle the main, so no.
If someone paid you $20 to inspect the main + $10 to untwist the lines, and you only knew it would take four minutes to also untwist the steering lines, would you do it?
Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD
amy 0
Quote
If someone paid you $20 to inspect the main + $10 to untwist the lines, and you only knew it would take four minutes to also untwist the steering lines, would you do it?
I have a lot of customers who will listen very sincerely to my advice when they get their rig back, then not do a thing that I've advised. Four months later when they bring the rig to me again, their brake lines are more twisted than they were the last time I untwisted them, the pilot chute that they promised to replace (but didn't want to buy from me because they could "get it cheaper somewhere else") is still there, and their poor main closing loop is hanging by a thread in spite of my replacing it 120 days ago (and lecturing them about the dangers of worn closing loops).
There are also skydivers who follow their rigger's instructions to the letter of course, but my point is that it's easy to get jaded about this stuff. I suspect that charging $10 to untwist customers' lines gets them to do it themselves every once in a while, and that may have been this guy's objective. Or he may have charged you just because he was feeling cranky.
If your point is that he charged you for a service you didn't agree to beforehand, then you may have a valid point. Whenever I pack for a new customer, I explain to them that I'll do any necessary repairs or maintenance up to $30 automatically, unless they want me to call them first. That includes maintenance that the jumper could or should be doing themselves (I do this mostly because I figure that's the only way to make sure it gets done). Unless this guy had a similar agreement with you, I'd agree that it would have been nice to let you know beforehand.
And I do agree that $10 is a little steep for untwisting the brake lines, but he may have been trying to make a point.
Amy
PeteS 0
Maybe if you kept your steering lines untwisted, you would not have had to cutaway in the first place!
riddler 0
QuoteMaybe if you kept your steering lines untwisted, you would not have had to cutaway in the first place!
FYI - I untwist my lines about once a week. OK, maybe it's not every day, but it's a lot more often than most jumpers I know. The problem is that I don't immediately stow the brakes. So they get twisted up when I let go of them on the ground.
A rigger might take a look at it and assume I never do it. But I do. I feel that a rigger that charges $30 to look at and untwist the main, and has seen that the steering lines are also twisted, should go ahead and take them out. Not just tell me about it.
Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD
wmw999 2,134
Did he charge $10 (as in the original post) or $30? Because while $10 is in the reasonable department, $30 sounds a little high unless it was horrendous.
Either way, I'd've probably done exactly the same thing with the lines. He has no idea that you untwist them regularly from what you say, and having you get in the habit is a much better preventive of having issues in the future.
Wendy W.
Either way, I'd've probably done exactly the same thing with the lines. He has no idea that you untwist them regularly from what you say, and having you get in the habit is a much better preventive of having issues in the future.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
CrazyL 0
Let me apologise now riggerob for anything i say here that may be miconstrued i'm only using your post to put this out there. On packing data cards: Whether a set of data cards are sewn,stapled,hotglued,bound, or left seperately i believe the riggers and owners of gear should make an attempt to keep the history of the gear with the gear.If cards are attached i like to be able to easily seperate the cards in case reserve canopy is sold or transfered to other gear because the data card goes with the reserve canopy. In the past records have been easily lost by leaving data cards seperate. I believe that multiple parachute data cards are better kept with the gear and attached together w/o destroying them and easy to use and read for the users/ gear checkers. I believe attaching cards is neither legal nor illegal, it comes down to rigger preference. Either way is fine.
QuoteI believe attaching cards is neither legal nor illegal, it comes down to rigger preference. Either way is fine.
I think you are right.
Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
CrazyL 0
thanks. i'll continue to attach data cards and detach them as necessary.
scdrnr 0
QuoteI believe attaching cards is neither legal nor illegal, it comes down to rigger preference. Either way is fine.
Agreed. My preference is to not attach them and let the owner decide.
I think it is good to keep the old cards but I don't see the advantage of retaining them all together. When I start a new card, I make an entry verifying AAD inspection and battery dates along with verifying the dates of any Service Bulletins. I do this more for the owners sake than for future riggers since most of these things can and SHOULD be determined by inspection of the gear itself anyway.
riddler 0
QuoteDid he charge $10 (as in the original post) or $30? Because while $10 is in the reasonable department, $30 sounds a little high unless it was horrendous.
$20 to inspect the main. $10 to untwist the main lines.
Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD
CrazyL 0
Your ways sound just fine. I like that you transfer the info. for the customers sake. It would suck for a customer to get charged extra for some missing SB on a new card that is or should be on the old card.
airnutt 8
I was tought that packing data card always follows res canopy whereever it goes now some rigger trainees seem to think it follows the cont. I'd like more input
bmcd308 0
Amy -
You forgot about the BOC pouch that hangs open like a hooker's ... well, it's loose.
----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com
You forgot about the BOC pouch that hangs open like a hooker's ... well, it's loose.
----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com
fcajump 153
QuoteAmy -
You forgot about the BOC pouch that hangs open like a hooker's ... well, it's loose.
Or old velcro on a ROL system... or pouch with a whole in it mid-span and showing pc fabric... took an inadvertant deployment during a video'ed dive to get that one replaced...
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
If you don't trust the rigger for any reason, get a second opinion and/or someone else to do the work.
That having been said, concerning the original questions...
I've known some riggers that would not trust the SB to have been done "correctly" unless they did it. However, charging for it when its already marked... I suspect an oversight.... at least.
As to time spent, my time is worth your money. There are things I do (for free) and there are things I charge for... While I would untwist the brakes on the main, I would consider it a favor regardless of whether or not I was paid to untangle the main. (The later can be a lot of work.)
As to the cards... my practice is to sew tyvek cards if a machine is available, but to ALWAYS keep the cards together. When spliting a rig, the card goes with the canopy, but a nice touch is to place a new card with the container that includes notes on any container work/sb's performed.
HOWEVER, as to LEGAL, my understanding is that there is only one requirement... the system must have a document (with minimum information included) that indicates its last inspection and repack. No history is FAR required (unless it is part of the TSO - read "PD" and others).
AD's could also require perminent documentation, but I don't think that simple manufacture's SB's have the weight of law.
Would like to see evidence of additional requirements. (Don't get me wrong, I think the logs should be kept.)
JW
(anal retentive rigger)
Hmmm... is "anal retentive" hyphenated...? Do what to get this right...
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...
riggerrob 558
QuoteI was taught that packing data card always follows reserve canopy where ever it goes. Now some rigger trainees seem to think it follows the container. I'd like more input
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You correct!
FAA and CSPA policy say that cards should stay with reserve canopies.
Give the kid a cookie!
If there is a mandatory service bulletin on a container, then maybe they need to photo-copy the reserve packing data card and send the photo-copy with the container.
Sounds like a few rigger trainees have been napping in class.
Bailiff! Whack their peepees!
“Actually it is; it's spelled out somewhere regarding canopy history.
It is also one of the suggested tasks in the Practical test for riggers.”
Has anyone found anything about sewing data cards together being required? I have looked in Part 65, Part 105, AC-105C, AC-65-C, Parachute Rigger Examiner Handbook – April 2004, Practical Test Standards, Parachute Rigger Knowledge Test Guide and asked 2 DPREs in my area and can’t find anything that even mentions this practice.
“Younger riggers nowadays”
If younger riggers are going to learn, they need to be taught.
Sparky
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