Is college a waste of time/money?

[SpeedRacer 1]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121858688764535107.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries
From Wall Street Journal:
OPINION


For Most People,
College Is a Waste of Time
By CHARLES MURRAY
August 13, 2008; Page A17

Imagine that America had no system of post-secondary education, and you were a member of a task force assigned to create one from scratch. One of your colleagues submits this proposal:

First, we will set up a single goal to represent educational success, which will take four years to achieve no matter what is being taught. We will attach an economic reward to it that seldom has anything to do with what has been learned. We will urge large numbers of people who do not possess adequate ability to try to achieve the goal, wait until they have spent a lot of time and money, and then deny it to them. We will stigmatize everyone who doesn't meet the goal. We will call the goal a "BA."

You would conclude that your colleague was cruel, not to say insane. But that's the system we have in place.

Finding a better way should be easy. The BA acquired its current inflated status by accident. Advanced skills for people with brains really did get more valuable over the course of the 20th century, but the acquisition of those skills got conflated with the existing system of colleges, which had evolved the BA for completely different purposes.

Outside a handful of majors -- engineering and some of the sciences -- a bachelor's degree tells an employer nothing except that the applicant has a certain amount of intellectual ability and perseverance. Even a degree in a vocational major like business administration can mean anything from a solid base of knowledge to four years of barely remembered gut courses.

The solution is not better degrees, but no degrees. Young people entering the job market should have a known, trusted measure of their qualifications they can carry into job interviews. That measure should express what they know, not where they learned it or how long it took them. They need a certification, not a degree.

The model is the CPA exam that qualifies certified public accountants. The same test is used nationwide. It is thorough -- four sections, timed, totaling 14 hours. A passing score indicates authentic competence (the pass rate is below 50%). Actual scores are reported in addition to pass/fail, so that employers can assess where the applicant falls in the distribution of accounting competence. You may have learned accounting at an anonymous online university, but your CPA score gives you a way to show employers you're a stronger applicant than someone from an Ivy League school.

The merits of a CPA-like certification exam apply to any college major for which the BA is now used as a job qualification. To name just some of them: criminal justice, social work, public administration and the many separate majors under the headings of business, computer science and education. Such majors accounted for almost two-thirds of the bachelor's degrees conferred in 2005. For that matter, certification tests can be used for purely academic disciplines. Why not present graduate schools with certifications in microbiology or economics -- and who cares if the applicants passed the exam after studying in the local public library?

Certification tests need not undermine the incentives to get a traditional liberal-arts education. If professional and graduate schools want students who have acquired one, all they need do is require certification scores in the appropriate disciplines. Students facing such requirements are likely to get a much better liberal education than even our most elite schools require now.

Certification tests will not get rid of the problems associated with differences in intellectual ability: People with high intellectual ability will still have an edge. Graduates of prestigious colleges will still, on average, have higher certification scores than people who have taken online courses -- just because prestigious colleges attract intellectually talented applicants.

But that's irrelevant to the larger issue. Under a certification system, four years is not required, residence is not required, expensive tuitions are not required, and a degree is not required. Equal educational opportunity means, among other things, creating a society in which it's what you know that makes the difference. Substituting certifications for degrees would be a big step in that direction.

The incentives are right. Certification tests would provide all employers with valuable, trustworthy information about job applicants. They would benefit young people who cannot or do not want to attend a traditional four-year college. They would be welcomed by the growing post-secondary online educational industry, which cannot offer the halo effect of a BA from a traditional college, but can realistically promise their students good training for a certification test -- as good as they are likely to get at a traditional college, for a lot less money and in a lot less time.

Certification tests would disadvantage just one set of people: Students who have gotten into well-known traditional schools, but who are coasting through their years in college and would score poorly on a certification test. Disadvantaging them is an outcome devoutly to be wished.

No technical barriers stand in the way of evolving toward a system where certification tests would replace the BA. Hundreds of certification tests already exist, for everything from building code inspectors to advanced medical specialties. The problem is a shortage of tests that are nationally accepted, like the CPA exam.

But when so many of the players would benefit, a market opportunity exists. If a high-profile testing company such as the Educational Testing Service were to reach a strategic decision to create definitive certification tests, it could coordinate with major employers, professional groups and nontraditional universities to make its tests the gold standard. A handful of key decisions could produce a tipping effect. Imagine if Microsoft announced it would henceforth require scores on a certain battery of certification tests from all of its programming applicants. Scores on that battery would acquire instant credibility for programming job applicants throughout the industry.

An educational world based on certification tests would be a better place in many ways, but the overarching benefit is that the line between college and noncollege competencies would be blurred. Hardly any jobs would still have the BA as a requirement for a shot at being hired. Opportunities would be wider and fairer, and the stigma of not having a BA would diminish.

Most important in an increasingly class-riven America: The demonstration of competency in business administration or European history would, appropriately, take on similarities to the demonstration of competency in cooking or welding. Our obsession with the BA has created a two-tiered entry to adulthood, anointing some for admission to the club and labeling the rest as second-best.

Here's the reality: Everyone in every occupation starts as an apprentice. Those who are good enough become journeymen. The best become master craftsmen. This is as true of business executives and history professors as of chefs and welders. Getting rid of the BA and replacing it with evidence of competence -- treating post-secondary education as apprenticeships for everyone -- is one way to help us to recognize that common bond.

Mr. Murray is the W.H. Brady Scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. This essay is adapted from his forthcoming book, "Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality" (Crown Forum).

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[skymama 35]

My daughter seems to think so.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Yeah,right!!

The kids today can't even pick teams for sports at school anymore because it might harm someones selfesteem. Something like this would cause mass suicide.

[shropshire 0]

Yes tis. I didn't need no skoolifying and looc at me now.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[SpeedRacer 1]

whatever.

The point is it seems strange to me that people will pay a shitload of money, & often stay in debt for over a decade, and spend 4 years full time at some institution which may or may not produce improvements WORTHY of the 4 years and all the $.

It has become inflated into a very long & expensive passage into adulthood. It's a racket.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[PhreeZone 15]

It was for just about all of my friends in IT and a few other industries. I could have saved $25,000 and got my IT certifications for about $2000 and still had every opprotunity that I currently have. I'm working with peer's doing technical IT work that were former Police with no degrees, sales with business degrees, marketing degrees and some generic liberal arts degrees. None of their degrees have anything to do with their careers anymore, I'm one of the few in my IT department with a Computer Science degree.

My brother has a degree and is an Air Traffic Controller that uses none of it, his FAA certification is 100% used and a true show of his abilities. He got lucky and the Air Force paid for his degree so it didn't cost him anything out of pocket.

My future brother in law is at least $30k in loans and still is yet to really decide what major he wants and has a year and change to go.

I agree with the author of that article a lot.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. It will never happen in the US though.

[SpeedRacer 1]

that's exactly what I'm talking about!

I am one of the exceptions: I majored in Biology, and I am currently a Molecular Biologist, a position that DOES require a lot of formal education. Also, my Dad was a college professor at Boston University, so my tuition was free.

But what about people who get a Liberal Arts major, or major in Literature or something like that, go deep into debt & spend 4 years, then afterwards they come out & have to take a course in IT or C++ programming or something in order to have a marketable skill?

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[AggieDave 6]

I learned a lot of valuable skills that I use daily from my study of History in college.

The best thing I learned was how to digest many hundreds of pages of very dry material and apply that knowledge well.

The "manual" I use at work is about 1300 pages long and I have to be able to apply it quickly and correctly. If I make a mistake I could loose my job and be sued or face jail time.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Misternatural 0]

Mr, Murrays essay has merit in that the current system of higher education is destructively expensive for most families. Even the student loan program is financially devastating for most students. I know people who are in their 40's who are still paying off their student loans. I agree, the benefit of this extremely expensive form of education is questionable considering the number of people who actually use their educational background in the workplace. All that money spent to learn how to conduct bongathons and drinking contests....want to know what your kids are actually learning?-See the movie "College" for details.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[Dumpster 0]

I'm doing pretty well without a degree. College is overrated.

Easy Does It

[VTmotoMike08 0]

I think the moral of the story could be better said as "Don't get a useless degree!" I think that it is indeed a waste of time and money to get most of the humanities degrees. I have a friend who just got a political science degree and while she dreamed of doing all this lofty campaign work, the reality is that she got denied a position as an administrative assistant.

However, I think the author underestimates the value of a good education from a top school. If you want to learn from the best, you have to go to the best schools. The best schools, afterall, have the best professors and instructors. The best is generally not the cheapest, and it should not be.

I have seen this first hand in my entry level engineering work. I came in with experiance from a nationally ranked engineering school and immediatly saw work and tasks that closely resembled what I learned in the classroom. My coworkers who came from junior colleges and less well known schools had never seen most of it before and required a lot more supervision to get their work done. Not surprisingly, I moved up in favor with my boss and in pay grade quicker than them. I got what I paid for with my degree.

Sure, you could possibly learn what I did from reading the books on your own, but that would take a lot longer than recieving quality instruction from professionals with years of experiance.

And most high level, high responsibility careers already have a certification system that works quite well. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, nurses, pilots, computer professionals, and most other professions already do a good job at self- regulation.

Quote

a bachelor's degree tells an employer nothing except that the applicant has a certain amount of intellectual ability and perseverance.

Um, isn't that one of the biggest things employers look for? And it also says that you have learned a given amout of material. Perhaps more importantly, it shows that you have learned how to learn.
Then he goes on to say how this really doesn't mean anything of value
The higher education system is not broken. Don't fix it.

[shropshire 0]

Quote

I'm doing pretty well without a degree. College is overrated.

Same here and I have no regrets for not having gone to university.
I'm doing very well without a degree and have never found it a hurdle. I was initially trained in the Air Force and (touch wood) have always been employed since leaving the forces. I'm now self employed and have a great work/life balance.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Dumpster 0]

I'm also an Air Force veteran. The experience and training have proven to be quite valuable.

Easy Does It

[Darius11 12]

A lot of it depends on what you study, but I would not take higher education lightly it is a huge door opener.
I dropped out of Business school for the chance to own my own company thought it was a great idea, but now with a failing economy and me having to look for a new job I realize there is nothing like an education.

They simply can not take it away from you, and it is a door opener. By the time I try to explain that I have done every thing related to running a business the guy with the degree gets the interview, the job, and the higher pay.


Going to school specially for people of middle class or lower is the best way to secure a good life.
Do not kid your self there are plenty of people who have been successful without higher education, but IMHO there is no easier way then going to school to guaranty you have a good future.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Taylor610 0]

My daughter seems to think so.

***

I know how you feel, but since I am in school full-time, I can speak from the actual factual right now point of view. Tell her to call me. I will get her all excited about the hot studs and parties, and then we can talk a little education...

[skydiver30960 0]

Quote

"Don't get a useless degree!"

Bingo. Winner. Make sure you (or your kiddies, if that's where you are in life) look at where they're going once they have their degree. I'm a Hokie too, and saw a HUGE number of communications and psychology majors who didn't realize until senior year how limited their future would be without post-grad work. But other four-year degrees can be immensely valuable and worthwhile, and can stand alone without post-grad education.

Quote

And most high level, high responsibility careers already have a certification system that works quite well. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, nurses, pilots, computer professionals, and most other professions already do a good job at self- regulation.

EH... not in total agreement on this one. The PE exam(s) require a solid understanding of the field. But in my two current careers (nursing and EMT) the certification tests have so much less to do with the body of material and so much more to do with knowing "how to take the test".

Elvisio "forgot how not to study" Rodriguez

[JohnRich 4]

No.

Sure, you can be successful without a college education.

But the odds are that college will improve your chances of being so.

[skydiver30960 0]

For those who are unhappy with the four-year institutional option, yet feel they need SOMETHING to prepare them for the future, I'd like to suggest the community college system.

I graduated from Virginia Tech in '97 with degrees in Materials Engineering and Spanish. I worked in the field until 2005, when I went back to school because of a fast-shrinking job market and even faster-shrinking sense of job satisfaction.

I went to nursing school at the local community college and was quite impressed at the "bang for the buck" factor. It was a very solid education for a price WAY below what you'd pay for a four degree. I'm now in a field that started me out at a pay rate that was competitive with what I was making in engineering when I quit, and will have me "writing my own ticket" for a LONG time instead of scrambling to find work.

I'm going back again for another two semesters to finish up my Paramedic this fall.

A community college doesn't have all the bells and whistles of a four-year institution. No fraternities, no heavy-duty sports programs, no housing options (usually), no intramural innertube waterpolo (this is a true loss). But if these things don't rank high on your list of needs, and you'll be concentrating on classes more than (beer) glasses, then the CC system is for you.


Elvisio "good stuff" Rodriguez

[Taylor610 0]

A community college doesn't have all the bells and whistles of a four-year institution. No fraternities, no heavy-duty sports programs, no housing options (usually), no intramural innertube waterpolo (this is a true loss). But if these things don't rank high on your list of needs, and you'll be concentrating on classes more than (beer) glasses, then the CC system is for you.


Elvisio "good stuff" Rodriguez
***

I pains me greatly to say this, but I agree with EL V

Damn the pain...

Dude, when did you become so intelligent???

[sunshine 2]

Quote

For those who are unhappy with the four-year institutional option, yet feel they need SOMETHING to prepare them for the future, I'd like to suggest the community college system.

Agreed!! I currently attend community college and totally feel i'm getting my money's worth.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[Taylor610 0]

Agreed!! I currently attend community college and totally feel i'm getting my money's worth.
***

Me too! Been going for two years now and starting fall classes Thur. 15 hours this semester. Cost me about $7500 a year, but it is worth every penny!

[sunshine 2]

I only pay $75 per credit hour. Granted the textbooks are still the same price as "real college" but with the low cost of tuition, i'll deal with the textbook costs.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[Taylor610 0]

I only pay $75 per credit hour. Granted the textbooks are still the same price as "real college" but with the low cost of tuition, i'll deal with the textbook costs.
***

Dang, that is a deal!! I am attending the University of South Carolina, Salkehatchie East Campus. They actually now have basketball, softball, baseball and soccer teams. Between the 2 campuses, (east and west) we now have almost 1000 students, but there is probably 550 at the one I am at and 450 or so at the other. We also have a lot of the 18 year old ist year kids. Although the atmosphere is good, there just isn't as much available to get into to cause problems, so the grades seem to remain high and attendance is pretty good.

One of my psyc books this semester was 165.00 by itself. My total for books was around $400.00. I really do like the small campus. One of the unique things about it is that this is the same physical school where I graduated from high school...

"Yeah I went to high school and then college at the same place!"

http://uscsalkehatchie.sc.edu/

[poe62 0]

I didn't go to school to have a career as the end result. I went to learn about ideas I'd never even considered learning about on my own. I had the opportunity to discuss and critique things with people fairly seasoned in each of these fields. Sure, I could possibly have those conversations or learn about all those things without spending thousands of dollars, but I don't feel that it was a waste of money. My degrees may or may not help me get a good job. I don't care about all of that. I do feel fulfilled with what I gained from my University.

~Nikki
http://www.facebook.com/poe62

Irgity Dirgity