Downwind landings...

[kmills0705 0]

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Yes they should be stressed in AFF.

I am truly amazed that 2100 jumps would advocate such a thing.

Just amazed!

With respect to landing into the wind, I tell my students:
We prefer to land into the wind because it slows down our ground speed. But landing into the wind is not mandatory, it's not necessary and sometimes it's even inadvisable.

Our students do not fear crosswind and downwind landings.

+1 here

4. Review of landing priorities
a. Land with the wing level and flying in a straight line.
b. Land in a clear and open area, avoiding obstacles.
c. Flare to at least the half-brake position.
d. Perform a parachute landing fall

No where is "into the wind" a priority. It is optimal, but not a priority as taught in FJC.

Kim Mills
USPA D21696
Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I

[toolbox 0]

Should you run away from a tiger or play dead after he bucks you off?

[ILikePizza 0]

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Should you run away from a tiger or play dead after he bucks you off?

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

...And I'm not gonna not get Randy Jackson's autograph...
Did we just become best friends?

D.S. #1000000

[tetra316 0]

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Yes they should be stressed in AFF.

I am truly amazed that 2100 jumps would advocate such a thing.

Just amazed!

With respect to landing into the wind, I tell my students:
We prefer to land into the wind because it slows down our ground speed. But landing into the wind is not mandatory, it's not necessary and sometimes it's even inadvisable.

Our students do not fear crosswind and downwind landings.

+1 here

4. Review of landing priorities
a. Land with the wing level and flying in a straight line.
b. Land in a clear and open area, avoiding obstacles.
c. Flare to at least the half-brake position.
d. Perform a parachute landing fall

No where is "into the wind" a priority. It is optimal, but not a priority as taught in FJC.

Oh come on guys. Don't be so literal. Yes AFF training is going to teach students the pattern that is into the wind. They will be briefed on the wind direction and setting the appropriate pattern. However, the landing priorities are also taught. I thought that was rather a given. What is not taught during AFF is intentional downwinders. That is all I meant. Geez. If anyone actually tells AFF students to do intentional downwinders, I would be very shocked.

[popsjumper 2]

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I suggest requiring an "advanced" topic for the "D": Night jumps OR CRW OR headdown OR bigway OR swooping OR wingsuit. Just requiring night jumps when far far more people are killing themselves in daylight under good canopies is silly.

You got MY vote, sir.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

We were talking about landing into the wind and if it is over-stressed in FJC. Your response to kimemerson was,

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Yes they should be stressed in AFF. After all you need to learn how to walk before you can run. Once you get comfortable with normal into the wind landings then I think you should start trying downwind and cross wind landings until you are comfortable with those. You cannot run before you learn how to walk however.

Tetra...no hammer, just food for thought.
It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that it's quite often that you make a post and then backtrack saying something else claiming everyone misunderstood you.
Just sayin'.

Literal? Yes, students are VERY literal. Black and white. Because they don't know enough about the sport to be able to filter the shades of gray.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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When you have an Otter with 26 jumpers...

Damn! Can you say sardines?


Oh, I get it....you stand up the entire climb to altitude, right?




j/k

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tetra316 0]

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We were talking about landing into the wind and if it is over-stressed in FJC. Your response to kimemerson was,

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Yes they should be stressed in AFF. After all you need to learn how to walk before you can run. Once you get comfortable with normal into the wind landings then I think you should start trying downwind and cross wind landings until you are comfortable with those. You cannot run before you learn how to walk however.

Tetra...no hammer, just food for thought.
It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that it's quite often that you make a post and then backtrack saying something else claiming everyone misunderstood you.
Just sayin'.

Literal? Yes, students are VERY literal. Black and white. Because they don't know enough about the sport to be able to filter the shades of gray.

[email]

As you quoted, I did not say over-stressed, I just said stressed. Yes they are stressed. I also said we should teach them to walk before they run. Translation: we should teach them to land into the wind before we teach downwinders. Do you not agree with this? We should be teaching downwinders during AFF?

Maybe I just have a different writing style that leads others to interpret what I wrote in a way I did not mean it. I don't know, after this is dorkzone.com, lol.

Or maybe I'm just assuming such things as a given that others may not (ie teaching landing priorities regardless of wind).

[ridestrong 1]

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When you have an Otter with 26 jumpers...

Damn! Can you say sardines?


Oh, I get it....you stand up the entire climb to altitude, right?





j/k

23.... actually

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[timmyfitz 0]

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Tetra...no hammer, just food for thought.
It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that it's quite often that you make a post and then backtrack saying something else claiming everyone misunderstood you.

No. Say it isn't so.

[billvon 2,406]

>I suggest requiring an "advanced" topic for the "D": Night jumps
>OR CRW OR headdown OR bigway OR swooping OR wingsuit.

I'd have required topics and an optional advanced topic. If you circle for long enough it WILL get dark out; therefore night jumps would be a good required one. If you get hit hard enough you WILL go unstable; therefore freeflying (sitflying perhaps) might be another good required one. CRW would be an excellent one as well since AAD misfires happen, and swooping (or more accurately advanced canopy control) would surely save lives if it were required for a more advanced license.

However, whatever happens in that airplane, you will not grow a wingsuit, so perhaps make the wingsuit optional. Head-down is another one that you will not likely do accidentally, so that would be another good optional one.

[kallend 1,635]

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>I suggest requiring an "advanced" topic for the "D": Night jumps
>OR CRW OR headdown OR bigway OR swooping OR wingsuit.

I'd have required topics and an optional advanced topic. If you circle for long enough it WILL get dark out;

That applies to people with ANY license level. And no-one forces you to jump out.

If you circle long enough at altitude you will get hypoxic. Should hypobaric chamber training be required?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,406]

>That applies to people with ANY license level.

True! So do off-field landings. But since people with 25 jumps aren't that good at accuracy yet, we hold them to lower standards on the accuracy portion of the license requirements.

>And no-one forces you to jump out.

Also true. No one forces you to land out, either - but it happens.

>If you circle long enough at altitude you will get hypoxic. Should hypobaric
>chamber training be required?

If they were widely available, yes - it would be good training for anyone going above 12,500. However, as it stands now, it's not practical due to the lack of availability. It would be like requiring AFF students to do tunnel time back in 1991. (Or requiring wingsuiting for a D license in the same timeframe.)

[theonlyski 3]

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>I suggest requiring an "advanced" topic for the "D": Night jumps
>OR CRW OR headdown OR bigway OR swooping OR wingsuit.

I'd have required topics and an optional advanced topic. If you circle for long enough it WILL get dark out; therefore night jumps would be a good required one. If you get hit hard enough you WILL go unstable; therefore freeflying (sitflying perhaps) might be another good required one. CRW would be an excellent one as well since AAD misfires happen, and swooping (or more accurately advanced canopy control) would surely save lives if it were required for a more advanced license.

However, whatever happens in that airplane, you will not grow a wingsuit, so perhaps make the wingsuit optional. Head-down is another one that you will not likely do accidentally, so that would be another good optional one.

How would knowing how to sitfly help me at all if I am in a belly dive and get taken out from above?

I would think the best thing to do at that point is get stable, find the formation and try to get back to it, not haul ass below it.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[DocPop 1]

I believe that if you are going to add mandatory training requirements to any license, then it should be based on a need. From the fatality reports, it is clear to me that the need is canopy control.

This does not mean a "how to swoop" course, but it could just be a requirement to demonstrate some basics, such as fly a controlled pattern, flat turns, braked approach and landings etc. There are so many jumpers with 1,000 plus jumps who never practice any of those skills and for me as a low-time jumper that is a cause for concern.

I am not talking about swoopers here, because those guys are to a large degree predictable. It's the old farts under Stilettos who think that once the RW is done, that's the end of the jump and they fly no predictable pattern with sashays and low toggle turns to land.

I don't really see how making CRW/headdown/bigway/wingsuit training mandatory will help, but canopy control and canopy DISCIPLINE certainly would.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[beowulf 1]

CRW would teach canopy control and discipline. It could be no touch CRW where you would learn to fly in formation and deal with other canopies in close proximity. I think that would be a very useful experience for many people.

[billvon 2,406]

>How would knowing how to sitfly help me at all if I am in a belly dive and
>get taken out from above?

If you are in a large dive, and you get taken out and flipped onto your back, it might be a very good idea to make sure you start moving _away_ from the base before you flop back over. Turning over immediately and trying to come back up into the hole you were just in rarely works.

But the bigger issue is just instability in general. Most AFF jumpers have very little experience recovering from instability; some have been unstable only once or twice when they graduate. Learning to sitfly will also teach you to do that quickly and controllably.

[theonlyski 3]

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>How would knowing how to sitfly help me at all if I am in a belly dive and
>get taken out from above?

If you are in a large dive, and you get taken out and flipped onto your back, it might be a very good idea to make sure you start moving _away_ from the base before you flop back over. Turning over immediately and trying to come back up into the hole you were just in rarely works.

But the bigger issue is just instability in general. Most AFF jumpers have very little experience recovering from instability; some have been unstable only once or twice when they graduate. Learning to sitfly will also teach you to do that quickly and controllably.

So you're saying, Im docked on a formation, WHAM, im now under the formation on my back... that one should go into a sit, get way low, the far out, slow the fall rate to get back up to the formation, and go for the dock again?

Not trying to sound like a dick, I just dont see how sitflying would help any.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[billvon 2,406]

>So you're saying, Im docked on a formation, WHAM, im now under the
>formation on my back... that one should go into a sit, get way low, the far
>out, slow the fall rate to get back up to the formation, and go for the
>dock again?

No. Just start moving away from the center towards a clear area. Once you're headed in the right direction, get back onto your belly and continue there.

One of the "kisses of death" for any large formation occurs like this:

-People lose sight of other people
-someone flies over someone else's back
-they collide and someone goes unstable; they go low and flip back over
-one or both then go to their slow fall position and start washing around under the base because 1) they can't see directly above them and 2) it's hard to fly in that state
-they fly under other parts of the dive which then fall on them as well.

Being able to flip back over cleanly where you want and moving in the direction you want is helpful there.

[theonlyski 3]

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>So you're saying, Im docked on a formation, WHAM, im now under the
>formation on my back... that one should go into a sit, get way low, the far
>out, slow the fall rate to get back up to the formation, and go for the
>dock again?

No. Just start moving away from the center towards a clear area. Once you're headed in the right direction, get back onto your belly and continue there.

One of the "kisses of death" for any large formation occurs like this:

-People lose sight of other people
-someone flies over someone else's back
-they collide and someone goes unstable; they go low and flip back over
-one or both then go to their slow fall position and start washing around under the base because 1) they can't see directly above them and 2) it's hard to fly in that state
-they fly under other parts of the dive which then fall on them as well.

Being able to flip back over cleanly where you want and moving in the direction you want is helpful there.

Wouldnt it be better to learn backflying in that case? You have a full view of the formation, you're not hauling ass and you can still move around to a safe spot to flip and come back up.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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Not trying to sound like a dick, I just dont see how sitflying would help any.

Maybe if we re-word the statement...

How could sit fly experience hurt??

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[theonlyski 3]

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Not trying to sound like a dick, I just dont see how sitflying would help any.

Maybe if we re-word the statement...

How could sit fly experience hurt??

Never said it would hurt, just didnt see how it would be relevent on a big way belly jump. I would be worried that you would end up falling on top of someone, then speeding up.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[speedy 0]

Landing with the wind broke my back

But it doesn't always end that way. Maybe 11 kts was too much, I dunno. But now my preference is into the wind or at least crosswind.

Just saying.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[Will_Evo 0]

So I feel like a fool for asking this, but rather be a fool than dead. I consider myself(as well as others) to be a decently competent canopy pilot for my experience level, and have made a few downwind landings(not on purpose) and gotta say I thought I broke my legs both times. Luckily both time I landed in a recently plowed field.

What is the appropriate procedure for making a safe downwind landing, and what are the wind speeds we are talking here. It seems to be getting all muttled up as if a 5 mph down wind landing is a big deal, or takes any amount of skill that is not already present in a normal into wind landing.

if you really want to get technical, the only real need for downwind landing would be in winds that are not safe to practice them and in a situation where a upwind landing was not possible. I know in my two experiences, I flared, and must have still been doing 15-20mph when I hit the ground. Not something I ever want to do again, whether it be on purpose or by accident. I got up patting my legs making sure I didn't break anything.

You all seem to want to make this type of training mandatory, but unless you are training in swooping, what kind of experience can one get when the training required needs to be done in moderate winds? I don't know, maybe I am missing something here, but I don't consider landing with the wind in 5mph winds a big deal or a true downwind landing..on the other hand, 10-20, yes and I have no idea what I would do different besides what I did and that is flare and hope I don't break myself on landing.

Like I said, I am pretty competent for my level of experience and have 10-15 crw jumps, a crw course and canopy course under my belt. No doubt I have a long way to go(especially since I apparently don't know how to land downwind safely) but this just seems ridiculous to me. The only thing I can think of doing is lengthing my flare, but if the winds are 15mph I am going to hit at 15, that is neither safe, nor fun.


-Evo

Zoo Crew

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