Downwind landings...

[DocPop 1]

...are my new favorite thing to do.

Last jump yesterday (hop n' pop, last one down, no canopy traffic) was about a 20 mph downwinder and it felt great!

Apart from being an essential canopy skill, it feels awesome. I used to love no wind days, now I can enjoy the wind!

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[rhanold 0]

I share your new found love of the dirty downwinder. There is nothing like the feeling going into your pattern knowing you will not stand this one up.

[popsjumper 2]

You'd be amazed at the number of jumpers, both new and experienced, who are afraid of downwind landings.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[virgin-burner 1]

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You'd be amazed at the number of jumpers, both new and experienced, who are afraid of downwind landings.

doesnt matter anyway if you're jumping rounds..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[DocPop 1]

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You'd be amazed at the number of jumpers, both new and experienced, who are afraid of downwind landings.

We might see fewer injuries due to low turns if people were not so concerned with having to land right into the wind.

Is that point (landing into the wind) over stressed during AFF training?

It seems to me that for new jumpers on large, forgiving canopies (and wind speed constraints) there might be better ways to determine the landing direction, e.g. follow the first person down or, even better, everyone agrees on the ground and then all jumpers can plan a pattern before boarding.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[ILikePizza 0]

So I will speak up and say that landing with the wind has been discouraged since my first jump.

Personally, I have had 2 landings downwind, and as a student I'm flying a massive canopy. I was not accustomed to coming in that fast and both landings were sliding, pretty much on my knees. I think that for students (in my rookie opinion), it's important to have a few of these under your belt as I am certainly not scared of them (and I'm not jumping anything gusting over 14 mph anyways). That said, I think it's discouraged in AFF with good reason.

For the most part, I have been following jumpers in. I am very cautious of letting others do their thing while avoid and observe them.

...And I'm not gonna not get Randy Jackson's autograph...
Did we just become best friends?

D.S. #1000000

[Halfpastniner 0]

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I share your new found love of the dirty downwinder. There is nothing like the feeling going into your pattern knowing you will not stand this one up.

+1

BASE 1384

[skyjumpenfool 2]

I watched one of the best do it a couple weeks ago. They had him on radar sliding a toe at over 80mph. It's very cool when done well, and worth the video tape when it's not!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[linestretch 0]

I think they should do away with night jumps for a D license and require a couple of down wind landings. This is something your more likely to have to do sooner or later. A night jump?...not likely.

I love doing them too!

my pics & stuff!

[ridestrong 1]

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there might be better ways to determine the landing direction, e.g. follow the first person down or, even better, everyone agrees on the ground and then all jumpers can plan a pattern before boarding.

As you know this is a discussion in another thread... At the dz I jump at we follow the first person down, who is supposed to land with the 'big red arrow'.

When you have an Otter with 26 jumpers it doesn't make sense to plan the landing direction before boarding when the wind can be blowing in the opposite direction on landing.

9 times out of 10 following the first person down will give you an up-wind landing and it's not that difficult to do.

In the event that the arrow does a 180 after the first person down we still maintain the same landing pattern.. Swoopers and others who choose to land at/near the pond are exempt from the designated pattern.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[popsjumper 2]

I never knew Mile High had a reputation for such severe wind direction changes.
Hmmmm...good to know.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I think they should do away with night jumps for a D license and require a couple of down wind landings. This is something your more likely to have to do sooner or later. A night jump?...not likely.

I love doing them too!

Mr. Crouch would disagree on eliminating night jumps.
He believes it too strong a possibility that you'll accidently leave the plane after dark.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DocPop 1]

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I think they should do away with night jumps for a D license and require a couple of down wind landings. This is something your more likely to have to do sooner or later. A night jump?...not likely.

Excellent idea! The more I get into this sport the more it concerns me how little attention many people pay to canopy skills. Ultimately, poor canopy skill is far more likely to get you killed than poor freefall skills. Only this weekend I spoke to a jumper with almost 2000 jumps who said she was scared of her canopy.

A little incentive for people to push their comfort zone when it is safe to do so (eg deliberate stalls, downwind and crosswind landings, flare turns on landing etc) would increase new jumpers' confidence in their wing and ultimately make them safer jumpers, especially in unplanned circumstances such as off-landings.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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Mr. Crouch would disagree on eliminating night jumps.
He believes it too strong a possibility that you'll accidently on purpose leave the plane after dark.

fixed it for ya!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[pinkfairy 0]

Just don't land downwind close to other people who are landing into the wind. Follow the pattern.

I can't really say I like downwinders. I come in and know that "Damn, I don't run this fast!" The good thing about them is that you're more likely to have them when the winds are LIGHT and variable. So there won't be much of a tailwind.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[kallend 1,635]

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there might be better ways to determine the landing direction, e.g. follow the first person down or, even better, everyone agrees on the ground and then all jumpers can plan a pattern before boarding.

As you know this is a discussion in another thread... At the dz I jump at we follow the first person down, who is supposed to land with the 'big red arrow'.

When you have an Otter with 26 jumpers it doesn't make sense to plan the landing direction before boarding when the wind can be blowing in the opposite direction on landing.

9 times out of 10 following the first person down will give you an up-wind landing and it's not that difficult to do.
.

We did that at a big way event back in March. Trouble was when two people each of whom thought they were going to be first down set up in opposite directions. Then we decided it was a really bad idea.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[motomike 1]

Dirty down winders are my new favorite...... I felt so wrong setting up for it... felt much better to stand up the second one...and the cheers.... OOOh the feeling of swooping a 210 LMAO

[airtwardo 6]

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I think they should do away with night jumps for a D license and require a couple of down wind landings. This is something your more likely to have to do sooner or later. A night jump?...not likely.

I love doing them too!

Mr. Crouch would disagree on eliminating night jumps.
He believes it too strong a possibility that you'll accidently leave the plane after dark.

Meow!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[kimemerson 7]

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Is that point (landing into the wind) over stressed during AFF training?

.

Yes! And stressed as a thing to avoid and fear. As are crosswind landings. I've witnessed too many injuries, i.e. low turns to avoid downwinders, when a proper education regarding landing in all winds would help. Stressing upwind landings forces people to insist on them especially when the winds are light and variable, causing, at times, as many landing directions as there are jumpers on the plane. I also believe that to some degree the stress on upwind landings by the instructor may well be an indication of the instructor's own anxiety or inability to handle all winds. There are reasons and times and skill levels which would make an upwind landing the preferred, but vilifying down and cross wind landings outright is actually dangerous and irresponsible.

[tetra316 0]

Yes they should be stressed in AFF. After all you need to learn how to walk before you can run. Once you get comfortable with normal into the wind landings then I think you should start trying downwind and cross wind landings until you are comfortable with those. You cannot run before you learn how to walk however.

[DocPop 1]

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Yes they should be stressed in AFF. After all you need to learn how to walk before you can run. Once you get comfortable with normal into the wind landings then I think you should start trying downwind and cross wind landings until you are comfortable with those. You cannot run before you learn how to walk however.

But you can't choose how you land before you know how to fly a canopy. Catch-22?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[DocPop 1]

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Just don't land downwind close to other people who are landing into the wind. Follow the pattern.

Hence my original post about being last down on a load of hop and pops with no traffic.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[kimemerson 7]

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Yes they should be stressed in AFF. After all you need to learn how to walk before you can run. Once you get comfortable with normal into the wind landings then I think you should start trying downwind and cross wind landings until you are comfortable with those. You cannot run before you learn how to walk however.

You can teach that downwind landings are acceptable, doable and likely to be the required direction in tight spots. No need to teach that they are the devil incarnate. And you can even intentionally put a student into a downwind situation - if the wind is light enough - and actually teach how to handle it. The problem is really that when wind direction is discussed with students, downwind is taught as a never, ever under any circumstances. I've watched as experienced people land downwind, even when no one else is landing and the area is clear, Instructors commenting to students that it was wrong. Downwind landings are not "wrong". They are simply more difficult to master but not impossible. They need to be accepted into the repertoire of any accomplished canopy pilot and becoming an accomplished canopy pilot must be included as a goal of any serious skydiver.

I also believe some form of CRW needs to be included in early education. Our canopies have a range of flight capabilities that are far beyond the skill level of the average pilot. It behooves us to not be intimidated by the instrument we need to command. As long as any form of intimidation is taught and encouraged, we will continue to foster ignorance and naievete, danger, injury and death.

[popsjumper 2]

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Yes they should be stressed in AFF.

I am truly amazed that 2100 jumps would advocate such a thing.

Just amazed!

With respect to landing into the wind, I tell my students:
We prefer to land into the wind because it slows down our ground speed. But landing into the wind is not mandatory, it's not necessary and sometimes it's even inadvisable.

Our students do not fear crosswind and downwind landings.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kallend 1,635]

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I think they should do away with night jumps for a D license and require a couple of down wind landings. This is something your more likely to have to do sooner or later. A night jump?...not likely.

Excellent idea! The more I get into this sport the more it concerns me how little attention many people pay to canopy skills. Ultimately, poor canopy skill is far more likely to get you killed than poor freefall skills. Only this weekend I spoke to a jumper with almost 2000 jumps who said she was scared of her canopy.

A little incentive for people to push their comfort zone when it is safe to do so (eg deliberate stalls, downwind and crosswind landings, flare turns on landing etc) would increase new jumpers' confidence in their wing and ultimately make them safer jumpers, especially in unplanned circumstances such as off-landings.

I suggest requiring an "advanced" topic for the "D": Night jumps OR CRW OR headdown OR bigway OR swooping OR wingsuit. Just requiring night jumps when far far more people are killing themselves in daylight under good canopies is silly.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.