Collapsed Slider Opening

[SpringVark 0]

I had my rig packed by a guy at a DZ that is not my own last week, before leaving to come home. I'm not a stranger there, and although I normally pack for myself, I've made use of this guy's services on a number of previous occassions, with no complaints.

Main canopy is a Pilot 168.

Today I jumped his packjob back home. On opening, it struck me odd that my slider immediately came all the way down past the top of my risers (where it would usually stop), and almost to a point behind my head. This had never happened to me before. I did some control checks and the rest of the jump was uneventful.

When picking up my canopy, I noticed that the slider was already collapsed - from my previous jump a week ago!

Pro track indicates it was a slow (flat-fly) jump, but I'm still surprised I didn't physically feel the opening to be harder than what I'm used to.

Lesson learnt, I suppose, is to uncollapse my slider myself, just like I stow my brakes, before giving it to anyone else. I did also call the DZ's CI and asked him to chat to the packer. Seems to me that the guy didn't even bother quartering the slider (during which time he would've noticed it was still collapsed).

I was told today that people have died due to this simple packing error. I imagine that in such incidents the circumstances of the jump would be more extreme? Perhaps dumping in a hard track? I've searched the forums but can't find any such reports myself. Does anyone know of any such cases?

Tx in advance.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Wow! You got lucky. It would be interesting to compare canopies as far as time it takes between line stretch, and the slider beginning it's movement down the lines. Also, I wonder how much speed is bled off with the slider at the fully up position. On my Sabre, it snivels for a little while, but on my old pd 9cell, the slider seemed to be on it's way down immediately. I would think this would make a substantial difference as far as jumping a collapsed slider...

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

When using a paid packer, ALWAYS:

-stow your brakes
-uncollaose your slider
-cock your pilot chute

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[popsjumper 2]

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When using a paid packer, ALWAYS:

-stow your brakes
-uncollaose your slider
-cock your pilot chute

Not bad advice. Some cock-eyed packers can't or won't do it as part of the pack job....as evidenced by this thread.

To the OP:
Somebody was watching out for you, I believe,

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[stayhigh 2]

Find it hard to believe that opening wasn't any diffrenet from normal opening.

also hard to believe that you found out about the slider after landing.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[Andy9o8 0]

As others have said, it's amazing you didn't have a very hard opening. Was it a sub-terminal deployment?

[SpringVark 0]

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As others have said, it's amazing you didn't have a very hard opening. Was it a sub-terminal deployment?

No - this was at terminal.

I'm just as surprised as you guys that I never felt it harder. I've had to chop a high speed mal before, and the reserve deployment on that felt hard (back pains afterwards, etc)... but this was a lot less violent. Not THE softest opening. But not too hectic, aside from the slider's behaviour.

My loading is at about 1.3 - maybe it'd have been harder with a smaller canopy? Not that my reserve was loaded any more on my mal - but it's designed to open hard, I believe.

I don't know. Maybe I have a goldfish memory, and the shock of the slider coming behind my head erased the shock of a hard opening...

Thanks for your thoughts.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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When using a paid packer, ALWAYS:

-stow your brakes
-uncollaose your slider
-cock your pilot chute

Not bad advice. Some cock-eyed packers can't or won't do it as part of the pack job....as evidenced by this thread.

To the OP:
Somebody was watching out for you, I believe,

I don't do it either.
Its my insurance that my clients get a decent pack job and/or no complaints about those things. Although I do check those, and even leave the main flap open to force them to check pin and PC.

[JohnRich 4]

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When using a paid packer, ALWAYS:
-stow your brakes
-uncollaose your slider
-cock your pilot chute

If you don't trust them to do those basic packing tasks, how can you trust them to pack the rest of the chute?

[DeNReN 0]

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When using a paid packer, ALWAYS:
-stow your brakes
-uncollaose your slider
-cock your pilot chute

If you don't trust them to do those basic packing tasks, how can you trust them to pack the rest of the chute?

Agreed....all are part of packing....whats next...not running the lines and missing things like a step through??

get paid to pack...then do all the steps necessary to pack.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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When using a paid packer, ALWAYS:
-stow your brakes
-uncollaose your slider
-cock your pilot chute

If you don't trust them to do those basic packing tasks, how can you trust them to pack the rest of the chute?

Agreed....all are part of packing....whats next...not running the lines and missing things like a step through??

get paid to pack...then do all the steps necessary to pack.

Well, if you don't like the policy you are welcome to pack for yourself.

[spootch 0]

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When using a paid packer, ALWAYS:
-stow your brakes
-uncollaose your slider
-cock your pilot chute

If you don't trust them to do those basic packing tasks, how can you trust them to pack the rest of the chute?

Agreed....all are part of packing....whats next...not running the lines and missing things like a step through??

get paid to pack...then do all the steps necessary to pack.

True that. and WTF is with cocking the kill line for a packer ? by the time the chutes ready to be bagged, you can bet the pc is probably not cocked or half cocked.
I have also had a packer leave my slider collapsed. It hit so hard it ripped the toggle keepers damn near off. After I came to, wondering what the f*#k happened, I looked up to see the slider was still collapsed, rammed over the toggles and the ripped keepers.
All I'm sayin is they sure as hell wouldn't put their mothers out on a chute without doing the brakes, slider and pc.


Oh, I also pack...

[jakee 1,254]

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All I'm sayin is they sure as hell wouldn't put their mothers out on a chute without doing the brakes, slider and pc.

I can understand busy packers wanting their customers to take care of those fiddly bits before leaving the rig, it could well make a big difference in how many packjobs they can make that day.

But any packer who will knowingly (and they will know) close up a rig with a collapsed slider (for what, to make a point?) and hand it back to a customer is an absolute fucking disgrace as both a skydiver and a person.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[stayhigh 2]

all of these people complaining about packers not doing, toggle, pc, and slider, these people never gives pack job to packers anyways. I don't see why they all bitch about it, when they haven't dropped single penny to packing community.

Yes I pack for living, and I don't care if toggles are stowed or not, I will just charge more at the end of the day.
Problem solved.

and I call BS to collapesed slider and not noticing it story.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[fasted3 0]

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When using a paid packer, ALWAYS:
-stow your brakes
-uncollaose your slider
-cock your pilot chute

If you don't trust them to do those basic packing tasks, how can you trust them to pack the rest of the chute?

I look at it 2 ways:

1. It is a courtisy to the packer to take care of that stuff. It's easy enough for me to perform those small tasks myself and save them some time.

2. By doing them myself, I know it gets done.
Not that I don't trust them to do it, but everyone makes mistakes, and this reduces the chance that they will make one.

Back to the original post: I think that packing an unopened slider is inexcusable, and the packer should find another job. If they did it on purpose, an ass whipping is justified.

But what do I know?

[ChrisL 2]

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Lesson learnt, I suppose, is to uncollapse my slider myself, just like I stow my brakes, before giving it to anyone else.

The lesson is to take responsibility for your pack job whether you did it yourself, or you gave it to the packers. Either way it was your choice.

I have 311 jumps. not all that many. I have packed about 300 of those myself.
Out of the 10-12 that were done by packers I have had issues with either radically off-heading openings, line twists, to total slammers that left me bleeding. (not an exaggeration)
Not every one of them, but almost all of them were at least off heading, 2 were serious slams (one of which actually left me bruised and bleeding),
and a few with line twists, and one with a premature brake deployment.

Takes me twice as long (or longer) as the packers do it. Thats a pain when my buddy is hammering me to get it done so we can get on another load. Still, I've NEVER had a really bad opening when I packed my own. Had a few off heading, but thats it. Not so much as a line twist.

Its a trade-off. The lesson I learned was to either pack it myself or shut up.

Packers pack fast. They get paid according to how many rigs they pack. Unless its a REALLY slow day you can bet that the thing is not going to be packed half as carefully as if you did it yourself.

When you decide to put it into the hands of another to pack it, its still your choice, and therefore any bad opening you get is still your responsibility.

__

My mighty steed

[phoenixlpr 0]

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They get paid according to how many rigs they pack. Unless its a REALLY slow day you can bet that the thing is not going to be packed half as carefully as if you did it yourself.

You are wrong. Packing fast does not mean that would be careless.

[azureriders 0]

You say the slider was collapsed from a jump last week. This tells me that you normally collapse your slider. You also say you did not notice the collapsed slider until on the ground, or at least that is my interpretation of your post. My question is that if you normally collapse your pilot chute, why do you believe that you did not on this particular jump?

Your profile says you have 370 jumps and I would bet you have collapsed a slider on at least 300 of those, so therefore it should be pretty much second nature by now. I would also bet that after a slightly brisk opening and a slider crashing down over your risers, that you collapsed it with out even thinking about it and then your gold fish memory kicked in and you forgot that you had done it.

Contrary to what I think you honestly believe, I do not believe that you had a slider collapsed opening without noticing some extreme opening shock. The only way I would even see that as possible would be that you had some type of other mal that slowed the opening way down before clearing itself. Even if that is possible, the odds of it happening on the same jump that a packer forgot to unstow your slider, well I will leave the math on that to you.

Still some good lessons
1) Always unstow your own slider, set your brakes, and cock your PC
2) NEVER use a packer that you do not trust to unstow your slider, set your brakes, and cock your PC

At least that is my opinion on the matter.

[NovaTTT 1]

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Still some good lessons
1) Always unstow your own slider, set your brakes, and cock check your PC
2) NEVER use a packer that you do not trust to unstow your slider, set your brakes, and cock your PC

At least that is my opinion on the matter.

FIFY

Cocking the PC before its time is an annoyance and doesn't make the packer's job easier or faster, IMO&E.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[fasted3 0]

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Cocking the PC before its time is an annoyance and doesn't make the packer's job easier or faster,

Huh? Why would it annoy anybody? Are you a packer and talking about yourself, or did you hear it from somebody else?

But what do I know?

[billvon 2,400]

>Cocking the PC before its time is an annoyance and doesn't make the
>packer's job easier or faster, IMO&E.

Hmm. I do that 99% of the time. The only time I don't do it is when the packer has nothing to do when I get there - then _he_ cocks the PC before I get the brakes set.

How does that annoy anyone?

[ChrisL 2]

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They get paid according to how many rigs they pack. Unless its a REALLY slow day you can bet that the thing is not going to be packed half as carefully as if you did it yourself.

You are wrong. Packing fast does not mean that would be careless.

No. I'm not wrong.

There isnt a professional packer on earth that will pack MY rig with as much care and attention to detail as I use when I pack MY rig.

This belief is supported 100% by the % of less than perfect openings I experience when its been packed by a packer compared to when I pack it myself.

Also, "not packed half as carefully" is not the same thing as "careless"

__

My mighty steed

[spootch 0]

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>Cocking the PC before its time is an annoyance and doesn't make the
>packer's job easier or faster, IMO&E.

Hmm. I do that 99% of the time. The only time I don't do it is when the packer has nothing to do when I get there - then _he_ cocks the PC before I get the brakes set.

How does that annoy anyone?

I think what Nova is saying is its annoying to him to have to cock it before the "shoulder work".
I usually cock the pc just after I lay the pack down (after flaking). Most of the shakeing is done when its on the floor so the pc stays cocked better. Your gear may stay cocked through the entire packing process, but I have found some do not.
Regaurdless, as a packer we must cock the thing to check it (some bridals have no identifying window and/or color) so whats the point of having someone else do it? Lets face it a pc in tow due to an un cocked pc is the packers fault wheather you cocked it for them or not. Ive packed lots of rigs, and if someone came in under a reserve because I never set the pc all the way, I'd own up to it. It's a pride thing...

[JohanW 0]

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There isnt a professional packer on earth that will pack MY rig with as much care and attention to detail as I use when I pack MY rig.

This belief is supported 100% by the % of less than perfect openings I experience when its been packed by a packer compared to when I pack it myself.

You are assuming care and attention to detail affect the opening. This is true for a very limited number of details only, IME. Decent, experienced packers know which details matter and which do not. You clearly have not seen me packing my own rig.

If and when I pack for other people, I will complain if they don't set their brakes and so forth. But I will not actually pack a chute with a collapsed slider - I don't want blood on my hands. In really extreme cases, I might refuse to pack it, but I still would not pack it with a collapsed slider. But I'm not a professional packer and I haven't encountered any really extreme cases yet.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[NovaTTT 1]

@ Spootch - you got it.

@ fasted & Billvon - straining at gnats? In my world, annoyance is a minor pique, not a massive blow-out.


Did you notice I "fixed" the referenced post from "cock" to "check"? Did you notice that I said IMO&E? In my opinion and experience?

Maybe you didn't so I'll explain.

I see no point in cocking the PC when giving it to the packer as he/she will cock the PC when getting to that part of the packjob. Pre-cocking it doesn't save time for the packer because he's going to do it anyway.

Cocking before packing brings the bag up against the topskin, which for several reasons, IMO&E, is an annoyance.

As a packer, it's annoying to have somebody slowing him down because Joe Jumper is cocking the PC while the packer is trying to get started.

If you're going to use paid packers, check to see if he/she wants the PC cocked. In my experience, most will not.

If you have your own special way of packing and want it packed that way, pack it yourself. Otherwise, choose your packer well and stick with a good one.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73