MICRORAVEN 150 RESERVES

[samm 0]

does anyone have any experience with these??
any information about them would be great, characteristics and what not.

[DexterBase 0]

I've had one in my rig for quite some time. Easy to pack... never had to fly it though.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I have one; nice enough colour, doesn't embarrass me in public. Lands fine.

[diablopilot 2]

Two rides and a handful of test jumps. They fly and land well enough ut to about a 1.3 loading. Wouldn't fly it higher than that myself.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[freeflygirlz 0]

HI!
I have bad experience with a Micro Raven:
My team mate and friend (4000+ jumps, TI, AFF-I) had a reserve ride with a Micro Raven (120) at a WL about 1,5. At landing, he started flaring, at about shoulder height the canopy stalled imediately. He fell on his back hard, got the cypres unit in his vertebras. Thanks god he was not really hurt, but he was in pain for quite a while.

Later on we talked to a few riggers and they all said: Small Micro Ravens are very dangerous. You should make a flare test and maybe its better not to flare at all and do a PLF.

In the manual you can read, that they do not recommend any WL above 1,1!! Check out the manual and think about it!

In the Skydiving Magazin (I think it's in the July-edition) there is an article about Micro Ravens.

[wmw999 2,122]

They don't recommend a wing loading higher than 1.1. Mine is loaded about that, and my last jump on it was an easy standup.

If you load it heavily (e.g. 1.8 or so), it's very susceptible to having an extremely short flare with a sudden (to say the least) finish. So don't do that.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[faulknerwn 36]

I load my MicroRaven 120 at about 1.2, and what I've found is that if I just do a straight-in approach, it'll stall when the toggles reach my shoulders. I normally come in on double-front-risers and it lands much more "normally" that way...

W

[skybytch 259]

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Small Micro Ravens are very dangerous.

Only if you're a big person.

There's a reason the manufacturer doesn't recommend loading a Raven over 1.1.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I have bad experience with a Micro Raven:
My team mate and friend (4000+ jumps, TI, AFF-I) had a reserve ride with a Micro Raven (120) at a WL about 1,5. At landing, he started flaring, at about shoulder height the canopy stalled imediately. He fell on his back hard, got the cypres unit in his vertebras. Thanks god he was not really hurt, but he was in pain for quite a while.

Your friend jumped an F111 seven cell rectangular canopy at 1.5:1, well over manufacturer's recommended max suspended weight, and then blames the poor landing on the canopy?

Jumping any reserve outside its performance envelope is just asking for problems. It should therefore come as no surprise to the pilot when the problems manifest. It is certainly not the fault of the canopy.

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[freeflygirlz 0]

Of course you are right, that a jumper shouldn stay in the manufacturers recommandation. But in the reality out there - how many jumper are loading there reserves more than the recommanded WL. And 1,5 is a quite average WL for experienced jumpers.
Nevertheless, there are far bether reserve canopies on the market. For my friend the only consequence was to change to a PD-reserve, which will fly stable even with higher wing loadings.
This is just my personal opinion. And I want to share it with other jumpers who have Micro Ravens. If we would have known about that before, my friend could have avoided a lot of pain!

[Hooknswoop 19]

For the same price, a PD-143 will open, fly and land a lot nicer. Quality control is better, as is customer service, in my experience.

Derek

[diablopilot 2]

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Small Micro Ravens are very dangerous.

That's a false assumption. After all, they DID pass TSO testing.

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You should make a flare test and maybe its better not to flare at all and do a PLF.

Advice like that is close to idiotic and shold not be paid any attention to. As with ANY new canopy, you should figure out how to fly it and it's limitations BEFORE you have to land it.

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In the manual you can read, that they do not recommend any WL above 1,1!!

That's much better.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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For the same price, a PD-143 will open, fly and land a lot nicer. Quality control is better, as is customer service, in my experience.

Without getting into a PD Reserve versus a MicroRaven discussion, should the different criteria for TSO C-23c vs TSO C-23d give any indication of possible differences in flight characteristics of the two reserves?

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[Hooknswoop 19]

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That's a false assumption. After all, they DID pass TSO testing.

So did -M's

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Without getting into a PD Reserve versus a MicroRaven discussion, should the different criteria for TSO C-23c vs TSO C-23d give any indication of possible differences in flight characteristics of the two reserves?

The PD-106R and MR-109-M are both TSO'd under TSO C23d. I have flown both. No comparision. The PD opened, flew and landed MUCH better than the Raven.

Most of the PD-R's are under TSO C-23c, all the Raven's and Raven-Ms are also TSO C23c. The Raven -M's and Raven Max+'s are TSO C23d.

I don't think the TSO has anything to do with it. The -M's were TSO'd long after the PD's and don't perform anywhere near as well. They are also not reinforced spanwise across the bottom skin like PD-R's.

Derek

[riggerrob 558]

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For the same price, a PD-143 will open, fly and land a lot nicer. Quality control is better, as is customer service, in my experience.

Without getting into a PD Reserve versus a MicroRaven discussion, should the different criteria for TSO C-23c vs TSO C-23d give any indication of possible differences in flight characteristics of the two reserves?

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No.
Minimum performance standards are almost identical in both TSOs.
However, canopy manufacturers learned a lot about heavier wing-loadings (anything more than 1:1) during the decade between the introduction of TSO C23c (circa 1984) and TSO C23d (circa 1994).
Back when TSO C23c was written, no one in their right minds loaded F-111, seven-cell canopies more than 1:1 because their ankles could not survive many landings at those velocities.
It was not until Parachutes de France introduced zero porosity fabric in the late 1980s that any one in their right mind loaded ZP, nine-cell canopies more than 1:1.
The last time I spoke with Chris - at Precision - he freely admitted that Ravens landed terribly when loaded at 1.4:1, then launched into a sales pitch about how well their R-Max reserves flew when loaded almost 2:1.

The bottom line is that no-one in their right minds loads 1980s vintage reserves (Firelite, Laser, Rascal, Raven, Swift, etc.) much more than 1:1 and if you plan on loading a reserve in the 1.5:1 range, it had better have been designed in the 1990s (Amigo. Next, PD, Smart, Techno, Tempo, etc.).

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The bottom line is that no-one in their right minds loads 1980s vintage reserves (Firelite, Laser, Rascal, Raven, Swift, etc.) much more than 1:1 and if you plan on loading a reserve in the 1.5:1 range, it had better have been designed in the 1990s (Amigo. Next, PD, Smart, Techno, Tempo, etc.).

The Raven-M's came out in the 1990's and don't perform as well as PD-R's.

Derek

[freeflygirlz 0]

Quote: The bottom line is that no-one in their right minds loads 1980s vintage reserves (Firelite, Laser, Rascal, Raven, Swift, etc.) much more than 1:1 and if you plan on loading a reserve in the 1.5:1 range, it had better have been designed in the 1990s (Amigo. Next, PD, Smart, Techno, Tempo, etc.).
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My friend bought his new gear with a new Micro Raven in 2000 at our dealer. How should the customer know, which resever to buy? The dealer recommended the Micro Raven as it is rather small packing. Before this Raven incidence we all did not spend a thought about with reserve to buy. Of course this is a very important thing, but I do rely on my dealer's advice.
Although I'm authorized to maintain and pack reserves, I do not presume to tell manufactures how to construct their canopies.

[skybytch 259]

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The Raven-M's came out in the 1990's and don't perform as well as PD-R's

Because the Dash M's are the exact same canopy as the Super Ravens. Although it was introduced in the 1990's, the Dash M wasn't a 1990's design. It was a Super Raven without a bridle attachment and with reinforcement. Comparing the flight characteristics of a Dash M to a PD reserve is like comparing apples to oranges.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Because the Dash M's are the exact same canopy as the Super Ravens. Although it was introduced in the 1990's, the Dash M wasn't a 1990's design.

As long as it isn't lumped in with the other reserves that came out in the 1990's.

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It was a Super Raven without a bridle attachment and with reinforcement.

It doesn't have any extra re-inforcement. The bottom skin is built span-wise, with span-wise seams, but no re-inforcement tape along those seams like a PD-R. They are actually weaker than the Raven's they replaced (Raven-M SB).

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Comparing the flight characteristics of a Dash M to a PD reserve is like comparing apples to oranges.

Definately.

For the same price you could get a PD-R, why get a Raven or Raven-M?

Derek

[diablopilot 2]

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That's a false assumption. After all, they DID pass TSO testing.

So did -M's

Derek

As did the Racer and Reflex and a bunch of other things you or I may not like personaly.

The point is anything used outside it's manufacturer recommended limitations demands you accept the consiquences of your actions.

Additionaly our like or dislike of a product should not allow us to reinforce poor advice given on this forum either.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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How should the customer know, which resever to buy?

Ask questions, investigate, do research, contact manufacturers, ask people with rides, be informed, do test jumps.

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Of course this is a very important thing, but I do rely on my dealer's advice.

I was a gear dealer for 5 years and while that is ONE source of information, one shouldn't rely only on one source.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ryoder 1,384]

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HI!
I have bad experience with a Micro Raven:
My team mate and friend (4000+ jumps, TI, AFF-I) had a reserve ride with a Micro Raven (120) at a WL about 1,5. At landing, he started flaring, at about shoulder height the canopy stalled imediately. He fell on his back hard, got the cypres unit in his vertebras. Thanks god he was not really hurt, but he was in pain for quite a while.

First, why did he wait until landing to find the stall point of an unfamiliar canopy? That should be the first thing he did after releasing the brakes.

Second, someone who jumps gear outside the performance specs of the mfgr is a test jumper, not a sport jumper. If they aren't prepared to accept the consequences being a test jumper, then they should go back to sport jumping.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Second, someone who jumps gear outside the performance specs of the mfgr is a test jumper, not a sport jumper. If they aren't prepared to accept the consequences being a test jumper, then they should go back to sport jumping.

Gear should perform up to the TSO limit. If a container is TSO'd to 254 pounds and the manufacturer recommends a max exit weight of 220 pounds, that doesn't mean it is OK if the harness fails with 245 pounds in it or the jumper is a test jumper. If a reserve is rated for 150 knots and 220 pounds, it should perform at those weights and speeds. If it doesn't, how did it pass TSO testing?

For TSO C23d, the max descent rate in the post deployed (brakes set) configuration is 24 FPS and total velocity not more than 36 FPS with 264 pounds under it.

Derek

[koz2000 1]

Just an FYI,
I got to jump both an R-max 118 and 138 as a main. Both landed quite nicely and it does give me a more confidence in what I have as reserves. I've never had a -M ride but I have had a couple PD-R rides.

I would suggest to anyone try to get your hands on a demo of what you've got as a reserve so you'll know how the canopy acts when you've got to use it.

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- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -