RWS Price Increase June 6th.

[tdog 0]

I found on the RWS website an announcement for a price increase June 6th... That is a couple days away...

If you are thinking of buying a rig in the near future (I love my Vector3, by the way) - just thought I would save you DZ.commers some $$$...

[BETO74 0]

I ordered my new micron 306 last week because of it cant wait

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[masterrig 1]

Looks like, they are falling in-line with Sunpath, who recently raised the prices of their harness-containers.


Chuck

[skydiverek 56]

$2189 is the new base price for Vector 3-M and Micron .

Here is the new price list from RWS, effective June 6th:

http://www.relativeworkshop.com/SportPriceList.PDF

Mirage's new price is $2099, as per Paragear.com

[outlawphx 1]

Wow, another $300. I remember picking up my Vector II brand new for under $1k in '93. Can anyone explain why canopy prices seem to have remained pretty level and container prices have gone bonkers in the past decade? I paid $1500 for a stiletto in '94, and that's about what they're selling for now. I've been on hiatus for a while...

[skybytch 259]

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I paid $1500 for a stiletto in '94

You must've paid list price back then. List on a Stiletto is over $2k now.

[outlawphx 1]

I bought it from the gear shop in Eloy, and the price isn't burned into my head because my Mother bought it for me . I don't remember if it was Square 2 at the time. It was run by a tall thin guy with grey hair (50's maybe). I'm so horrible with names....

[FrogNog 1]

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Can anyone explain why canopy prices seem to have remained pretty level and container prices have gone bonkers in the past decade?

It could be a difference in demand for new canopies vs. new harness-containers due to custom sizing and technology upgrades. Many main canopies from ten years ago are still acceptable from a safety-technology (and cool-technology) standpoint while rigs of that age are not because they aren't freefly friendly, they have ugly velcro, they have large 3-rings, or they don' t have hip and/or chest rings. A used main canopy of any age will fit anybody who wants one in that size but finding a used container that fits your body is a lot harder, especially if you want it to fit well. So the used market for canopies sees a lot less friction than the used market for harness-containers, which means the average person will lean more heavily toward new when buying a harness than when buying a main canopy.

Another possibility is that substitute goods have kept downward pressure on the price of certain main canopies, and there is no such substitute for rigs. This theory suggests that many canopy owners trade up to cross-braced canopies (at around $2,000 apiece) and as they do they relax demand on the new and used market for regular canopies like Hornets and Sabre2s and Stilletoes; the used market supply of these canopies does not go down (it can actually increase if the owners discard them when they upgrade) and so a normal steady price climb due to inflation and diseconomies of scale (from the sport-industry's growth) is held off. Meanwhile people are buying the same new harness-containers as before because there is no new "high-performance cross-braced super-tiny harness-container" product, and inflation and diseconomies of scale manifest normally in the harness-container prices.

An important and simple check for whether the price of something has gone up or down vs. history is to compare the now vs. then prices in dollars of the same year. (Consumer Price Index.) Using a CPI calculator (e.g. [URL http://minneapolisfed.org/Research/data/us/calc/index.cfm]Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis[/URL]) a $1,000 Vector II in 1993 would cost $1351 today without any increased real cost to the manufacturer such as redoing the TSO or a net addition of new parts and labor such as factory riser inserts, collapsing pilot chute, and standard stainless hardware and/or hip rings. A $1,500 canopy would cost $2,027 today without any increased real cost. Based on this it does look like canopy prices have received less of an increase (or even received a decrease) compared to harness-container prices, but it also puts a smaller dollar amount on the apparent harness-container price increase - in the neighborhood of $600 (or $444 in 1993 dollars).

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[outlawphx 1]

Thank you for a very intelligent and well thought out response. .

I recently order new gear, and while I considered used canopies, I knew right away I wanted a custom fit harness. I suppose there are more canopies than containers out there (look at the classifieds), so the substitute theory makes sense.

[jumpwally 0]

Man,you sure sound like an accountant !!

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[egons 0]

....ok no bashing here!

The increase will also have the Centerline PC standard with a Hackey or Freefly pud! So, all in all the increase is only $185.00
Believe me we have worked our hardest to keep the costs down to the sport market. The V2 was quite simply allot easier to build than the current V3, so comparing the two is not a fair comparison.

Please keep in mind the retail pricing you see is MSRP - get quotes from your local dealer for pricing and get your order in before the 6th!!!

With all our current production changes and increases in volume out of the factory we can have your order delivered within 6-8 weeks.

Cheers.
Egon

"Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!"

[falxori 0]

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With all our current production changes and increases in volume out of the factory we can have your order delivered within 6-8 weeks

and it took even less for mine

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[egons 0]

Glad to hear that!

The 6-8 weeks is a worst case scenario... right now if I look at our orders receiving and shipping dates we are more on the 5-6 week mark. Adding the additional production line has made a massive difference!

Hope you enjoy your new rig
Cheers
Egon

"Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!"

[billbooth 10]

A little history might be interesting...In the early 70's both a Para Commander and a conventional container system cost $225 each. When Para Flite came out with the first commercial ram air, the Para Plane, they doubled the PC price ($550). I guess because they figured a ram-air was at least twice as good as a round. When John Sherman and I came out with the first "modern" piggybacks, we made a terrible mistake, we priced them the same as the conventional gear they replaced ($250), and we have been regretting it ever since. And back then, the canopies even came with risers and toggles. Guess who has to supply them now.

The truth is that a modern piggyback costs as much, or even more to make than a cross braced canopy. Simply put, the only real money container manufacturers have been making is when we sell a canopy. (Witness that Performance Designs is larger than all the container manufacturers combined.)

This "problem" has recently gotten worse by how extremely custom rigs have become. They are beginning to resemble NASCAR. Every rig is embroidered...many all over. There are at least 3 reserve ripcords to chose from, and even one of them can be embroidered. The same is true for cutaway handles and main pilot chute handles, not to mention several types of main pilot chute. It's very rare that we get to make even two rigs alike. We can no longer stock anything.

We recently added up all the main risers options we offer...three types of 3-rings...3 types of webbing...6 or 7 different lengths of each of those types of webbing...each available in 10 or 12 colors...and lets not forget dive loops or blocks and riser housings. Multiply all these options together, and you will find out that we offer over 5,000 different risers alone. To be able to make all these custom options we have to stock literally thousands of separate inventory items. And because we don't use much of any particular material, we pay top dollar for the small quantity orders.

If you want to have some fun, call up my good friends at PD and order a truly custom canopy. In addition to your normal fabric color scheme, tell them that you want the "A" lines red, the "B" lines blue, the "C" lines lavender, and the "D" lines pink. You also want every other reinforcing tape green and the line attachment tabs black. Oh, and by the way, could you please sew the whole thing together with orange thread. And don't forget your name embroidered on the stabilizers, in baby blue. If you can get them to stop laughing long enough, tell them you would like your new canopy for 30% off the normal price. And please don't tell me this example is far fetched...You do it to me every day.

[MarkM 0]

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If you can get them to stop laughing long enough, tell them you would like your new canopy for 30% off the normal price. And please don't tell me this example is far fetched...You do it to me every day.

LOL, good example. I wonder if the next step for containers will be to go stock with all the features and sizes. Looks like bird-man is doing that with the PHI to keep prices down and I think the Pheonix Fly prodigy is the same way.

Then again, I should be one to talk. My Mirage has 3 tie dye color patterns on it and all the trimmings.

[tdog 0]

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And please don't tell me this example is far fetched...You do it to me every day.

And you built me a masterpiece that many other jumpers ask if they can "borrow" just to see what it is like to jump a Vector...

Seriously, I love my rig and all the personal attention your staff put into it... When I first got it I started "digging" to find one thing I thought was "sloppy" - and I have yet to find it... Awesome work.

This morning after read some of the responses by people about canopy costs, I thought... "Shoot, a canopy is basically some ZP material and a lineset, my rig has hundreds of custom made parts. Why is it that the canopies are so expensive then???" I feel your pain on this one.

Travis

[ianmdrennan 2]

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my rig has hundreds of custom made parts. Why is it that the canopies are so expensive then???"

So does your canopy

Good skydiving gear costs money. I'm willing to pay it

Performance Designs Factory Team

[AggieDave 6]

It would have been handy if the RWS dealers had recieved an e-mail or something about it. I mentioned it to a local dealer and he was surprised to hear about a price increase, then mentioned that RWS hadn't said a word to him.

It would seem to me that the dealers would be the first to know, not the last, in a change like this.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[egons 0]

You are correct in saying the dealers should be first to know - and that is exactly what we did! A mass mail was sent out to our dealers of the notification...
I can only assume your dealers email address has possibly changed or the mail was somehow not received...
The increase notice was also placed on our website!

Cheers
Egon

"Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!"

[tdog 0]

Quote

Quote

my rig has hundreds of custom made parts. Why is it that the canopies are so expensive then???"

So does your canopy

Good skydiving gear costs money. I'm willing to pay it

Of course I am willing to pay for good gear... I am sure tons of R&D go into canopies... But for each canopy there are only a few sizes not custom made to a person's body, each size has a different lineset (that can be made in bulk, rarely custom to color or customer request) and a bunch of fabric panels that could be cut in bulk and stored or programmed into a computer cutter/jig as standard sizes for later.

So the material list for a canopy is thread, ZP fabric, attachment point tabs, lineset cord, and a warning label plus a handful of stuff I missed.

Just the pilot chute in a container has the same # of parts, maybe more, than a canopy....

Add the cutaway system and you have double the materials list of a canopy...
I love my skydiving gear, and I am not upset at the cost, and I am not upset that RWS is increasing the cost... Just agreeing with Bill, it appears manufacturing process and materials procurement for canopies has to be easier than containers, just because of # of components that are custom in a container - and therefore you would think there would be a bigger gap in pricing between containers and canopies.

• Quote

[ianmdrennan 2]

I've taken tours of both PD and RWS. Both components of a skydivers system take a significant amount of work and parts to make. Both a lot more than I realized before the tour.

Think of all the variables (conditions, weight, size of jumper, etc) that goes into building a canopy. It's not as straightforward as you imply. I'm sure the variable list for both components (rig and canopy) is excessively long
Doesn't really matter though, we both agree that building just about anything for a skydiving system isn't easy or cheap.
Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[skydived19006 4]

Vector could consider (I’m sure they have) offering a “standard” and basic container system in a few sizes, and one color in order to offer a lower cost alternative. Not that this idea is anything new, my guess would be that in the long run people would end up preferring to pay for the custom rig anyway.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[riggermick 6]

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I've taken tours of both PD and RWS. Both components of a skydivers system take a significant amount of work and parts to make. Both a lot more than I realized before the tour.

Think of all the variables (conditions, weight, size of jumper, etc) that goes into building a canopy. It's not as straightforward as you imply. I'm sure the variable list for both components (rig and canopy) is excessively long
Doesn't really matter though, we both agree that building just about anything for a skydiving system isn't easy or cheap.
Blues,
Ian

You are right that both are complex, but having been in the "business" I can tell you that canopies are less expensive to produce on a stitch per dollar basis. Canopies have around 15-20 different materials involved in thier construction a harness/ container has around 80-100 different materials/ set pieces (different size hardware etc)involved in it's construction.

When it comes to the quantity of actual parts of either the same material or different material the harness/ container has about a tenfold increase over the canopy. Additionally many more different types of machines and equipment is required to produce a harness/ container than a canopy.

Believe me I'm not trying to belittle the amount of work that goes into canopy construction, it is a huge undertaking (I've done it) but I can tell you from personal experience that H/C construction is more complex and time consuming.

Mick.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Cool, thanks for the additional info

I'm just happy there are companies out there providing these services - it's gotta be a pretty thankless job , especially considering the time and effort it takes into keeping everyone happy and providing a quality product.

Blues!
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Harksaw 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Aren't harness/containers generally made in the US?

and canopies are sewn together outside the US?

This may have a lot to do with the price differences.

__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.