Sabre2 vs. PD 9-Cell??

[Jeth 0]

I bought my first rig this winter, and it has a PD 9-cell in it (F-111). The student rigs have Sabre2's. I got the same size (190), but I am a little nervous about if the 9-Cell will fly differently than the Sabre2. (Haven't used it yet) I have read lots of great reviews of the 9-Cell, but has anyone actually gone from the Sabre2 to one? Or even any ZP canopy to a F-111? (Especially as a rookie) What can I expect?

Thanks.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

You can expect that the flare will not be near as good as the Sabre 2.( Even worse if it has more than about 300 jumps on it.) Do not expect to plane out during the flare as you would with the Sabre 2. The flare on the PD 190 will be one stroke instead of a two stage flare that you may have learned on the Sabre 2. Also the toggle pressure will be a little higher and the turns not as responsive on the PD 190. Talk with one of your insturctors and open high to play with the canopy and get a feel for the flare.

[jheadley 0]

a decrease in performance, less penetration, a definite decrease of flare power. They're not bad canopies though, just don't expect to swoop one.

On the plus side, they pack easy!

[beowulf 1]

I started out with a PD 9cell 150 and then went to the Sabre 2 150 that I currently have. The PD 9 cell was more diffucult to get the landing right. The flare had to be timed much better then on the Sabre 2. With the Sabre 2 I can compensate for a early flare or even a slightly late flare. The 9 cell has a much steeper glide ratio then the Sabre 2. That makes it easier to be more accurate but harder to make it back on a long spot. F111 doesn't last as long as zero porosity fabric on Sabre 2's.

[Jeth 0]

So what do you mean about the flare? Right now on the student canopy I do a "1-2-3" flare in a slow, smooth motion. If I do the 1 too soon, I can just hold it till its time for the 2-3. I won't be able to do that with the 9-Cell? By a "two-stage" do you mean that there is no 1, or no 3? How should I do my flare differently?

I know I can ask my instructors, but if they have never flown a PD 9-Cell, they won't have a very accurate answer. Thanks.
BTW, this canopy is very new, only 72 jumps on it.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[beowulf 1]

The flare will be more like 1 stabbing flare rather then 1 - 2 - 3. If you try the flare that you normally do it will not give you the same result. It would not cause you to plane out like the Sabre2 does. You still don't want to let up on the flare real fast if you are too early as that will cause you to surge forward and you still want to hold it, but just make sure you are not too close to your stall point or it will drop you. It will land steep and won't have any swoop at all. Those are my personal observations from flying my old canopy. Make sure you go over flying that canopy with the instructors where you jump. I am sure they have flown F111 canopies before and will have no trouble giving you better advice on what to do.

Disclaimer
I am in no way advising you to even jump out of an airplane or fly a parachute at all. I am just relaying my personal experience in landing my old canopy. Take it for what it is worth and listen to your instructors.

[Jeth 0]

Thank you. I will definitely be asking them about flying F-111 compared to ZP. And I'll be using the student gear for a few more jumps anyway.

Thanks for your honest opinion.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Quote

So what do you mean about the flare?

Hi Jeth. My first canopy was a PD 9-cell 170 loaded at right about the same 0.9 wingloading as yours. The flying charachteristics and flare technique on a PD 9-cell and a Sabre 2 are so different that it's difficult to accurately compare them.

F-111 canopies don't get as much lift, and the 9-cell is an older airfoil as well, so your flare will have less "power." Basically, you will probably find that you have to execute your flare sequence more quickly, and initiate the flare a few feet higher (not too much... just a few feet). The flare will be different from what you're used to now, but I wouldn't worry too much about it... the 9-cell is probably one of the easiest, most forgiving canopies to land ever made.

The canopy will turn more slowly, and won't gain as much ground against the wind. You may also find that the ride is a little "bumpier" on turbulent days... nothing scary, just different.

Don't let all of this make the canopy sound like it's a bad canopy... there are advantages to F-111. It's very easy to pack, and the 9-cell opens (in my opinion) like a dream... soft, smooth, and on heading every time .

On that note, definately ask your instructors... most people today really don't know about F-111 canopies 'cause they've only put a handful of jumps on them if any. If your instructors are young guys too, even they might not know that much about F-111... so you might seek out some of the veteran jumpers who were around in the 80's and early 90's... they've got plenty of jumps on canopies like this.

One final point: a lot of people will tell you that F-111 fabric will wear out after a few hundred jumps. It's true that it wears out faster than ZP, but if you take care of it, you could probably squeeze close to 1000 jumps out of it, especially at a low wingloading... mine had 500+ and flew like new. My guess is that you intend on switching to a ZP canopy long before that point, so you really shouldn't have to worry about it.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[mattjw916 2]

Personally I would just sell the PD 9-cell and buy something that is made of ZP... I have a few jumps on PD 9 cells loaded at just under 1:1 and did not like any aspect of the canopy, i.e. the opening (hard unless the nose was rolled), toggle/riser pressure (high and slow to react), and the flare (mushy and very little plane-out). All things being equal, I'd rather jump a student canopy like a Navigator. Of course, this is all relative to the Spectres and Sabre2s I had flown at the time...

My $0.02...

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Quote

Personally I would just sell the PD 9-cell and buy something that is made of ZP... I have a few jumps on PD 9 cells loaded at just under 1:1 and did not like any aspect of the canopy, i.e. the opening (hard unless the nose was rolled), toggle/riser pressure (high and slow to react), and the flare (mushy and very little plane-out). All things being equal, I'd rather jump a student canopy like a Navigator. Of course, this is all relative to the Spectres and Sabre2s I had flown at the time...

I think anyone today would rather fly ZP than a PD 9-cell... it's just a question of budget. If you've got the cash, go for it. If not, the 9-cell will keep you in the air until you can afford a ZP. The other thing to consider is that if you sell the 9-cell, you'll likley only get $200-$300, and then have to spend at least $500 on a MUCH more well-used ZP (probably more like $600-$800 if you want something as fancy as a Spectre or Sabre 2), only to turn around in one or two hundred jumps, and probably take another loss upgrading and/or downsizing to yet another ZP.

That's why I flew the 9-cell at first... it was big and slow and *cringe* pink, but it was cheap and got me through long enough to gain the skills and save the money I needed for my current Sabre 135.

One cool thing about waiting a little while to spend a lot of money on a ZP canopy is that you've then got the opportunity to fly a few of them, and at least a little experience to be able to compare them yourself instead of having to rely on other people's opinions.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[crazydiver 0]

What do you mean don't expect to swoop one? Of course a pd190 isn't a swoop machine, but when they first came out, they were the hot shit of canopies. Ask anyone who was around when they first came out and they will tell you that the pd series was a very advanced canopy when it first came out... of course, even though they are still sold...they are used more for demoes and such now, but back in the day it was a different story. I've seen some folks swoop a manta. It can be done with pretty much anything with enough skill.

Cheers,
Travis

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

The flare will be more like 1 stabbing flare rather then 1 - 2 - 3.

Don't 'stab' a flare on any canopy.

If you are loading it lightly, it will likely be very easy to get soft landings, they just won't look impressive.

I jump a PD210 with low mileage loaded at 1.15:1, and it still does very nicely.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[pilotdave 0]

I went the opposite way. My first canopy was a PD 9-cell, and so were all my student canopies. Didn't try a ZP canopy till my 100th jump, when I demoed a sabre2 in the same size as my main. I never understood why anybody would want to pack a slippery ZP canopy until I landed that thing. I really had no plans to go buy a new canopy (i was just demoing it cause it was free). But then I immediately started demoing to go buy me a ZP canopy. Ended up buying a Sabre2. Still have the PD 9-cell and my old container, which would make a perfectly fine backup rig, but I'm really afraid to try switching back and forth between canopies because the landings are so different.

I always found the 9-cell to require a lot of timing to flare well. It would land nice and soft when I flared at just the right height, but I couldn't adjust very well for being too high or too low. Landings werent BAD, just not great. The sabre2 is much easier to land in my opinion... just flare as much as it needs till you touch down.

The other big difference is openings. Never really hard, but always firm. No snivel. On the bright side, it opens in a whole lot less altitude than a sabre2. And mine was almost always on heading, unlike my sabre2.

Overall I'm very glad I started with the 9-cell. I really think its a great canopy to learn on. It was plenty of fun.... I wasn't at all bored of it when I did upgrade to a sabre2... I just loooooved that sabre2 flare.

So jump it, see if you like it, and start saving money for something nicer. It's probably not a canopy you'll want for a really long time, but it's really not a bad first canopy... except that you're already spoiled by the sabre2.

Dave

[crazydiver 0]

Good points. I would argue though that he could have the canopy for a long time. The sabre 2 is a very versatiel canopy. I have friends with 30 jumps who have on and I also have friends who have thousands of jumps and love them and can swoop the heck out of them. I have no desire to buy one because I'm a big air sportz addict..but sabre 2's are amazing canopies for their versatility.

Cheers,
Travis

[pilotdave 0]

Oh I love my sabre2 and have no plans to get rid of it any time soon. But I was talking about keeping a PD 9-cell for a short time, not a sabre2.

Dave

[GravityGirl 0]

Jeth,

What is your wing loading on the F111 PD? A lightly loaded F111 is easy to land. Once you exceed the 1:1, it become more challenging.

You can learn how to fly it properly in just a few jump. Just make sure you are not overloading it. Otherwise you landings may not be comfortable.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Jeth 0]

Thank you for the responses everybody!
Now I'm starting to wish that I'd gone the other way -- starting with the F-111. Its going to be a real bummer if I finally start standing up my landings on the student gear, but then when I start flying mine I have to PLF every time. It sounds like I should stick with the student gear for awhile longer, till I am better at my landings, before I try the new canopy.

I will have it loaded at less than 1:1, so hopefully I'll be able to flare it okay.

I was planning on keeping it for awhile, since its so new. I guess I will just see how it goes and if I really hate it then I'll have to see about getting a Sabre2.

Aw man, I want some nice landings! No more crash landings!! I hope I can do it!!

(At least tomorrow I'll be under the Sabre2, so hopefully that one will be nice and soft.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[mattjw916 2]

Don't neglect the other good 9-cell ZP canopies out there like the Safire, Fusion, Pilot, etc... that can often be found for a bit cheaper than a used Sabre2.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[kelpdiver 2]

A *new* Pilot can be had for less than the asking price of some used Sabre2s and Spectres. More so for the Triathlon, and the used price on those is way down. (570 for mine).

I liked renting the Fusion, but haven't seen any on the used market. New price is too steep.

[JustaBill 0]

and when the time comes be sure to let me know and I'll let you try out my Pilot

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I've done so much, with so little, for so long
I'm now expected to do everything with nothing forever