Who should pay for SB's?

[billvon 2,405]

>That's just it, the original design has a problem.

I would disagree there. If you wrap the closing loop around the cutter in some reserves, you can cause a slow or non-deployment. That does not mean the design has a problem, it means that shoddy rigging can kill you.

If a rig is packed per instructions by a competent rigger to industry standards, and it doesn't work, then you could say the design has a problem (i.e. like the Talon small-reserve-container problem from years ago.) If it's packed poorly and doesn't work correctly, then I don't think you can call that a design flaw.

[skybytch 259]

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The FAA should pay for SB's?

They're the government. They should be there to help us. (note - I'm messin' with ya here Derek...)

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What do you think of my idea of Mirage Sys reimburing riggers at a set rate for applying the SB, eliminating down time and shipping?

In an ideal world that'd be great. But how many master riggers have the facilities to do the work? Cost to the manufacturer to have the work done in house will be based on them being already tooled up and having one or more master riggers - very familiar with the product and required modifications - on payroll. It will take a factory rigger far less time - therefore cost less - to complete the work than it would Joe Rigger in B.F.E.

Is $20 going to cover what Joe Rigger in B.F.E. would charge to do the work? Maybe at a $60/hour loft rate, assuming the work can be done byt Joe Rigger in 20 minutes. Not at a higher per hour labor rate, and not if it takes the rigger 45 minutes to do the work.

[sundevil777 93]

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Techncally speaking this SB doesn't have to be performed

So, I suppose that for the people that choose to not modify their rigs, they will face a hassle from some riggers that will not be willing to repack their reserve. Especially for the larger reserve containers, and containers that are not 'overstuffed', which apparently are less vulnerable to this problem scenario, it seems like a very reasonable decision to just make sure that riggers pay attention to the tips from Mirage on the issue. After all, they admit that they debated the merits of just issuing/reinforcing good packing practices.

Rigs usually look terrible when the reserve is simply too big for the containe. I could understand riggers having some problem if a really tight container doesn't have the SB done, but I wonder how many riggers will be OK with it. Also, some DZs may enforce the application of the SB.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Hooknswoop 19]

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That's just it, the original design has a problem.

I would disagree there. If you wrap the closing loop around the cutter in some reserves, you can cause a slow or non-deployment. That does not mean the design has a problem, it means that shoddy rigging can kill you.

If a rig is packed per instructions by a competent rigger to industry standards, and it doesn't work, then you could say the design has a problem (i.e. like the Talon small-reserve-container problem from years ago.) If it's packed poorly and doesn't work correctly, then I don't think you can call that a design flaw.

I agree, but I didn't make the determination the Mirages have a design issue and need to be modified. In fact I disagree with that stance. I don't think they have a problem and the SB shouldn't have been issued or at least been optional and not mandatory. Of course, technically, unless the FAA makes it an AD, it isn't mandatory.

Then there is the issue of what is too poor of rigging? Where is the line? Exactly how bad were the reserves that locked up? I have seen a lot of poor rigging, but I haven't seen a closing loop that was a bit too long and poor bulk distribution cause a reserve total.

If the tolerances are that tight, then the manual should be more precise, i.e. for a specific Mirage size and specific reserve type and size, there should be xx% of the material in the ears and xx% near the bad opening, south of the grommets and the closing loop should be xx mm long, from the knot to the end of the loop, etc.

Sun Path’s Javelin manual used to have a picture of the 2 side flaps closed with the bridle coming out the top, while the text says to route the bridle under the flaps out the bottom. The new manual doesn’t say how to route the bridle for a square reserve, but says to route it out the side of the 2 side flaps for packing a round.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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They're the government. They should be there to help us. (note - I'm messin' with ya here Derek...)

No, wait, maybe you are onto something here.......

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In an ideal world that'd be great. But how many master riggers have the facilities to do the work?

Doesn't take much, hell I have the equipment and materials (very little material is needed).

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Cost to the manufacturer to have the work done in house will be based on them being already tooled up and having one or more master riggers - very familiar with the product and required modifications - on payroll. It will take a factory rigger far less time - therefore cost less - to complete the work than it would Joe Rigger in B.F.E.

Right, but what is the difference? How does that compare when no shipping and a lot less down time is factored in?

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Is $20 going to cover what Joe Rigger in B.F.E. would charge to do the work? Maybe at a $60/hour loft rate, assuming the work can be done byt Joe Rigger in 20 minutes. Not at a higher per hour labor rate, and not if it takes the rigger 45 minutes to do the work.

Probably. Maybe different number, those I just pulled out of the air. Even $30 would be cheaper than shipping both ways.

Even if a rigger charged a little more than the voucher Mirage was willing to reimburse them, the owner would still save money and down time. Say a rigger charged $10 more than what the voucher was worth. That is a big difference from shipping in your rig and sucking up the down time. I don’t think too many people would complain too loudly about $10. Also, if Mirage says it should take 25 minutes (or whatever) for the average rigger to apply the SB, and a few Master Rigger post and confirm that number and a Master Rigger tries to say it will take him 1.5 hours, he looks like he doesn’t know what he is doing. Riggers would be motivated to charge same as the voucher for appearance sake. I know I wouldn’t charge more than the voucher, unless the voucher was ridicules, like $.50 or something. If it was reasonable, I’d run with it even if it took me a little longer than what Mirage says it should.

I really think a voucher is a much better solution than either paying out of pocket for the SB to be done or dealing with the down time and shipping. Everyone wins.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Also, some DZs may enforce the application of the SB.

I thought about that. I don't know if they would or not. Of course DZO's can make ant rules they wish, but turning someone away with a legal and safe rig would cost them $ and most DZO's wouldn't cost themselves money.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

OK, who voted riggers should do it for free!!!?!?!?!?!



Derek

[meandean 0]

I don't think I'll mod Kelli's rig. Her reserve works fine and the mod won't improve anything, only makes things worse.

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How does it make things worse?

[mjosparky 3]

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"This rig is sold with all faults and without any warranty of fitness for any purpose"

Yeah...that'll stop a lawsuit.

I didn't say it would stop a lawsuit. But that is the conditions you agreed to when you bought your new rig. Its up to the individual if they will stand by there word or not.

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By using this rig, or allowing it to be used by others, the buyer waives any liability for personal injuries or other damages
arising from such use.
If the buyer declines to waive liability on the part of the manufacturer, buyer may obtain a full refund on the purchase
price by returning the parachute harness and container, before it is used, to the manufacturer within 30 days from the
date of original purchase with a letter stating why it was returned.

That seems pretty clear. Will it stop a lawsuit, I don't know.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Hooknswoop 19]

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How does it make things worse?

The closing loop has to be longer, the cutter can't 'burrow' into the frebag, and the reserve container can wrinkle because of the SB.

Derek

[KellyF 16]

I'm gonna stir the pot a little and ask who is responsible for the location of the cutter?

[PhreeZone 15]

I was thinking the same thing. I find it funny that Mirage worked with Airtec on the redesign but no where is Vigil mentioned as being ones to analyaze the data and determine if that location is optimal for their product also.

Seems like Airtec and Cypres is the ones doing all the work and Vigil is getting a free ride.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skycat 0]

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I was thinking the same thing. I find it funny that Mirage worked with Airtec on the redesign but no where is Vigil mentioned as being ones to analyaze the data and determine if that location is optimal for their product also.

Seems like Airtec and Cypres is the ones doing all the work and Vigil is getting a free ride.

Just to be fair you need to include Astra in that free ride.

Fly it like you stole it!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I'm gonna stir the pot a little and ask who is responsible for the location of the cutter?Angelic

The container manufacturer. They install the components to make the container 'Cypres Ready'. I think when the Cypres first came out Airtec did a lot of testing in order to get container manufacturers to make their containers 'Cypres Ready'.

The manual comes with instructions from the container manufacturer on how the AAD is to be installed.

Derek

[slug 1]

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I'm gonna stir the pot a little and ask who is responsible for the location of the cutter?

The deepest pocket if there is one.

Historically i think the cost of repairing a large number of manufactored items rigs, canopies, electric heaters baby cribs whatever, is beyond the financial capacity of a lot of companies to correct.

Maybe a solution would be for a manufactor to Buy some kind of "recall insurance" to pay for the cost of the infrequent mass SB's that would exceed a certain total $$ value.

Of course the added cost of this insurance, Bond whatever it would be called would be passed on to the consumer
Might be a bad idea just a windfall for the lawyers

R.I.P.

[KellyF 16]

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I'm gonna stir the pot a little and ask who is responsible for the location of the cutter?Angelic

The container manufacturer. They install the components to make the container 'Cypres Ready'. I think when the Cypres first came out Airtec did a lot of testing in order to get container manufacturers to make their containers 'Cypres Ready'.

The manual comes with instructions from the container manufacturer on how the AAD is to be installed.

Derek

Actually, Airtec tests each brand of container and determines if the location that the container manufacturer requests (for cosmetic reasons mostly) is appropriate and allows the Cypres to function as designed. To be fair, if Airtec had their way, they would locate the cutter on the flap opposite the pin on nearly every rig.

The point has alredy been made about other AAD manufacturers taking advantage of much of the R&D that was originally done, and continues to be done, by Airtec. Kind of puts the cost differences into perspective

[PhreeZone 15]

Yep, Astra and Vigil are getting free rides on Airtec's dime for the R&D. Granted, the Astra has to do some on their own to facilite the placement of the control unit on the outside of the container.

If I was Airtec I would'nt be happy at all with another company coming in and using all my R&D as their own. I don't see Vigil with an install manual for how to design a container to work with a unit.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[douwanto 22]

Jay both your responces were right on. Mirage Airtec and RWS did testing after the reported incident and decided the new position for the cutter is better than the old.
Mirage has decided to move all. RWS has decided to move the location on their new rigs but leave old rigs alone.
This is my understanding of the situation.
Does anyone have any more info on RWS position?
Chris

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[ECVZZ 0]

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I didn't say it would stop a lawsuit. But that is the conditions you agreed to when you bought your new rig. Its up to the individual if they will stand by there word or not.

Sparky: Don't misunderstand my point here. I don't condone suing gear mfr's or DZ's, or other skydivers. I understand the risks of the sport, and it's my decision every time I board a jumpship.

My point is that a gear mfr is no different than an automobile mfr when it comes to design or engineering problems, and it seems like they are treating this as such (as opposed to a rigging problem).

Any attorney worth his salt will blow the liability disclaimers out of the water in short order.

It seems to me that since they acknowlege a problem requiring a master rigger to perform a change in the installation of a basic safety device, they would want to show that they made every effort to correct the "design flaw" themselves.

I'm with Hook on this one. Auto makers do it all the time (mandatory recalls) based on a cost/benefit analysis. In short, some bean counter behind a desk in a cubicle weighs the cost of the recall against the possibility of losing (or even fighting) a protracted, possibly class action lawsuit. A gear mfr can ill afford the costs of such a legal battle, let alone losing one.

Just seems to me they need to stack more beans on their side of the scale by taking care of their own design mods.

---

G. Jones

"I've never been quarantined. But the more I look around, the more I think it might not be a bad idea."

[rmsmith 1]

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Vehicle manufacturers do it all the time for safety and defect issues.

And automobile prices reflect this benefit too.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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And automobile prices reflect this benefit too.

And if canopies/containers, etc don't, thent hey should. As has been pointed out the Cypres costs refects this benifit.

I really think everyone would win if they would pay Master Rigger to do the Mod. Probably cheaper than Mirage doing and paying return shipping and free to the customer, and very little down time compared to shipping to Mirage and back.

By "they", I mean Mirage Sys.

Derek

[PhreeZone 15]

Master riggers can don it, and some are. Its just that most local master riggers are charging for their time. Either way Mirage owners will pay about the same.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Either way Mirage owners will pay about the same.

Not if Mirage paid the Master Rigger for the SB.

If you send it to Mirage, you either pay the extra shipping for sending your reserve also and pay to have Mirage re-pack it, or have to pay your rigger to re-pack it after paying to ship it to Mirage and waiting for it to get shipped back.

If Mirage paid the rigger for the SB, then the owner's rig is down for a normal re-pack, doesn't have to pay shipping or extra for the SB. Mirage wouldn't have to pay return shipping, or pay their rigger to do the SB.

Lets take 4 Mirages.

The first is sent back to Mirage with the reserve and get s the SB and a re-pack done and is shipped back. That costs the owner $60 for the re-pack, the SB is free, and shipping the container and reserve to Mirage. Plus the added down time for shipping there and back. Mirage has to pay their rigger to do the SB and re-pack the reserve, plus return shipping.

Costs: down time, Mirage pays for the SB, shipping both ways, re-pack which the owner may be able to get cheaper.

Savings: Owner doesn’t pay for SB

The second is shipped to Mirage without the reserve. The SB is down and Mirage ships it back. It costs the owner shipping out, which is less than shipping with the reserve, and a normal re-pack fee with their rigger. Plus the down time for shipping there and back. It costs Mirage whatever they have to pay their rigger to do the SB and return shipping.

Costs: down time, Mirage pays for the SB, rigger has to re-assemble and re-pack reserve, might end up costing more than a normal re-pack because of the assembly.

Savings: probably none if the rigger charges $60 for the re-assembly and re-pack, Mirage pays for the SB.

For the 3rd, the owner takes it to a Master Rigger, who does the SB and re-pack and charges the owner for both.

Costs: Owner pays for a normal re-pack and the SB.

Savings: Shipping

For the 4rd Mirage, let's say Mirage will pay for the owner's local Master Rigger to do the SB. The owner pays for a normal re-pack. The Rigger does the SB and bills Mirage. The rig is down for a normal re-pack and the owner pays for a normal re-pack. Mirage pays the Rigger to do the SB, which may cost them a bit more than paying their own rigger, but still less than paying their rigger plus shipping. The rig is only down for a normal re-pack length of time.

Costs: Mirage pays for the SB which may be $5-$15 more than they could do it for, normal re-pack cost.

Savings: no shipping, owner doesn’t pay for the SB. Costs the owner $0 over a normal re-pack.

With the third and 4th rig, it doesn't cost the owner any extra down time and Mirage saves money because they don't have to ship it back. Both sides save money and down time. Since Mirage is willing to do the SB for free and pay return shipping, they save money by just paying the local rigger to do it.

This is how car manufacturers do it. The dealer doesn't take care of recalls for free, they bill the manufacturer.

Derek

[riggerrob 558]

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What do you think of my idea of Mirage Sys reimbursing riggers at a set rate for applying the SB, eliminating down time and shipping?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You can pay me for my time to sew the update or you can pay for my time to write a bill to Mirage, Either way you are paying me for my time.
Paperwork will take longer than the sewing.

Why are you people wasting so much time arguing over pennies?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Why are you people wasting so much time arguing over pennies?

1) Because it isn't just pennies. It's dollars. As in $20+ for shipping. The real cost is the down time and shipping. How many jumps would a fulltime instructor miss getting this SB done. How many AFF jumps would a DZ w/ Mirage student rigs not be able to do because of the SB?

It isn't just pennies.

Derek