GLIDEANGLE 1 #1 February 16, 2011 Do you have students learn to pack a 0-3 cfm ("F-111") fabric canopy first, BEFORE moving on to packing a ZP canopy? I wonder if students' frustration with packing ZP might be less if they first mastered packing something less challenging to handle. This would give them a chance to practice the basics AND EXPERIENCE SUCCESS, before tackling the slippery stuff. If you do, how does it work for your students? How is the process structured? If you don't... Why not? ThanksThe choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #2 February 16, 2011 We use Navigators so its a mix canopy. I would think its a bad idea to teach students on ZP canopys, its hard enough with mix canopys. But thats just a (good) guess. We dont have any student canopys that is only F-111. On the DZ there are a few (2 or 3) canopys that are F-111, but we dont use them for teaching packing because they are someones gear, its not the DZs. But it could be a good idea if there is such a option Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #3 February 16, 2011 QuoteDo you have students learn to pack a 0-3 cfm ("F-111") fabric canopy first, BEFORE moving on to packing a ZP canopy? For what reason? We want them to learn to pack for themselves. So they are packing Navigators if we have Navigators only. If the canopy is older that's their luck. It takes time but all learn how to pack in the end. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
angle228 0 #4 February 16, 2011 Speaking as a new jumper, At my home DZ we do the same thing. If you are jumping a Nav 260 you learn to pack a NAV 260. But have you ever watched a new jumper (like me) try and pack a NAV 260 for their first few packing attempts... there is just too much fabric there to really know what the hell is going on. Just for practice sake I packed an old Raven that was at the DZ. I practice with the raven a few pack jobs and then one of my instructions had me pack his triathlon. After working with the Raven and the Tri I was able to pack the Nav 260 much better. In short, the less slippery the fabric and the less fabric there is the easier it will be for a new jumper to understand what is going on.I am fucking your mom right now Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #5 February 16, 2011 In the n00b thread there were two great vidoes on packing for students. Look them up they were very good.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #6 February 16, 2011 QuoteDo you have students learn to pack a 0-3 cfm ("F-111") fabric canopy first, BEFORE moving on to packing a ZP canopy? Yes. At Chambersburg we have several set-up (with old F111 canopies in 'em) designated training rigs. I find it does make their transition over to their own gear, later on when they get it, that much easier, as at least they have a decent concept of how it SHOULD go, before they end up having to handle/struggle with new Zero-P.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
agentsmith413 0 #7 February 16, 2011 At CPI we have an old rig that isnt jumpable that we use to teach students to pack. Not sure if it's F111 or not but it was a good tool for me to learn to pack and get the hang of it before i went on to newer canopies.Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
guineapiggie101 0 #8 February 17, 2011 Sounds really hard to learn to pack, esp with such enormous parachutes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #9 February 17, 2011 QuoteFor what reason? For exactly the reason I stated in my original post. As part of a teaching in a progression from simple to complex. Trying to help students LEARN in managable chunks, rather than simply giving them a large complex and manually difficult task and being satisfied that they "all learn to pack in the end". My observation is quite different that what you have stated above. Many students find packing so difficult that they never learn more than is necessary to pack the one time that is required for their A-license, and become forever dependent on paid packers. My hope is that by creating series of tasks from simple to complex that the students will learn, better, faster and without the frustration that is so common.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #10 February 17, 2011 In most cases I have seen students are taught the “monkey see, monkey do” method of packing. They need to be taught the different parts of the canopy, suspension lines, control lines, risers, slider and pilot chute and bag, and how they interact with each other. Teach them that the “A” lines meet the “B” lines about half way down and continue to the riser at a single line. They need to learn to recognize a step through or other tangles a canopy can end up in. How to do a quick line check, check pilot chute and bag attachment and untwist the break lines. I know this takes more time but if the student understands a canopy learning to pack it is not such a hassle. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #11 February 17, 2011 So, teach them to flat pack. It is easy. Canopy size hardly matters. If they want to learn other methods, they can do so at their leisure. You don't teach them to swoop during AFF, do you? So why teach a packing method that is apparently more advanced than they can handle? Nobody ever said they had to learn to pro pack for their license - they just need to learn to pack. In fact, just last week, I came across a flat packed reserve in a vector II. Flat packing works just fine, and it is lots easier than other packing methods. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #12 February 17, 2011 QuoteMy observation is quite different that what you have stated above. Many students find packing so difficult that they never learn more than is necessary to pack the one time that is required for their A-license, and become forever dependent on paid packers. Well, they have a bit more motivation here: no packers available. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #13 February 17, 2011 Pfft. I've taught whuffos to pack my ZP canopies and jumped them afterwards too. One of them was so meticulous I suspect he'd make a great reserve packer. It really makes me chuckle when skydivers struggle - not at their dificulty, but because they've been taught poorly. As a general rule packing's only difficult if you rush it - something that newbies all seem to do - it's not a race. Teach people to take their time. Don't book themselves onto a 15 minute call. Personally, I've found people find packing smaller ZP canopies easier than larger F111 ones. The sheer amount of fabric can be intimidating on larger rigs, whereas the only difficult bit with ZP - getting it in the bag, can be overcome with packing tips. The first rig I ever learnt to pack was a 135 Stilletto in lieu of paying my FS1 coach. They weren't works of art, but they all opened... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #14 February 17, 2011 QuoteIn most cases I have seen students are taught the “monkey see, monkey do” method of packing. They need to be taught the different parts of the canopy, suspension lines, control lines, risers, slider and pilot chute and bag, and how they interact with each other. Teach them that the “A” lines meet the “B” lines about half way down and continue to the riser at a single line. They need to learn to recognize a step through or other tangles a canopy can end up in. How to do a quick line check, check pilot chute and bag attachment and untwist the break lines. I know this takes more time but if the student understands a canopy learning to pack it is not such a hassle. Sparky I also found that people find canopies easier to pack if they know the 'anatomy' of what they are looking at. At my home DZ we have a canopy hanging from the roof as though it was flying, with all the lines still attached. 5 minutes looking up at that and suddenly A, B, C and D lines all make sense as do stabilizers, cascades, brake lines etc. When I teach to pack I start by looking at that end then refer back up to it during the pack job. It seems to help."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 64 #15 February 18, 2011 I was taught, quite a few years ago, to flat pack. Just looking at everything on the ground makes sense and allows you to put it together in the way that it opens. Once you learn how, it can be done with your eyes closed. It is also a lot easier to see if something is wrong.Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #16 February 18, 2011 QuoteI was taught, quite a few years ago, to flat pack. Just looking at everything on the ground makes sense and allows you to put it together in the way that it opens. Once you learn how, it can be done with your eyes closed. It is also a lot easier to see if something is wrong. And in most cases once in the bag it is almost the same as Pro packing. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #17 February 20, 2011 Here's a thought, Why not use South African ZP? My Cobalt is made out of it and it's VERY easy to pack (almost like f-111). Is there any real reason why they cant make student canopies out of this stuff?Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBlank 0 #18 February 20, 2011 Quote Here's a thought, Why not use South African ZP? My Cobalt is made out of it and it's VERY easy to pack (almost like f-111). Is there any real reason why they cant make student canopies out of this stuff? Is there any real reason they don't make all canopies out of this, the same for colored attachments points that the Pilot has, they make pro-packing (and phyco packing) much easier and I've heard of people doing it themselves if they are newer. I the discontinued Hornet, so mine has both "Do you really want to take advice from the guy we call Tarmac?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #19 February 20, 2011 QuoteHere's a thought, Why not use South African ZP? My Cobalt is made out of it and it's VERY easy to pack (almost like f-111). Is there any real reason why they cant make student canopies out of this stuff? Apparently they no longer make that kind of fabric: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2575408;search_string=south%20african%20zp;#2575408 I hope that links to the right post, I'm not very good with this mark-up stuff."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #20 February 21, 2011 Quote Quote My observation is quite different that what you have stated above. Many students find packing so difficult that they never learn more than is necessary to pack the one time that is required for their A-license, and become forever dependent on paid packers. Well, they have a bit more motivation here: no packers available. +1 a skydiver that doesnt know to pack!? ha! ha! *points finger*“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #21 February 21, 2011 This was nice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JiAegc8EOw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyM_LkW8DVI enjoyLife through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whoops 0 #22 February 24, 2011 I teach my students pack main canopy using PRO-PACK method I dont care if its ZeroP or F111 or hybrid, packing method is all time the same I just fight for understanding this method (student) In case of problems with packing I usually say: "its only process, don´t stress, don´t care if nothing works... everything will be OK soon, just practice, pack - open, pack - open" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #23 February 25, 2011 We normally teach on F111 or hybrids, however sometimes on full ZP. The one thing that our DZ does and has been doing since before my time is to teach flat packing. This eliminates the problem of size and it allows the student to SEE what is going on rather than digging around over his shoulder not understanding anything. Normally by a student's third pack job they are packing jumpable packs on their own, ready to be signed off. After some practice at this, when they understand where every thing should wind up and have become pretty comfortable with bagging, stowing and closing, transition over to pro packing is a breeze. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #24 February 25, 2011 What i started doing last year when i was teaching students packing is to have a photo of a open canopy from below. So every time the student or i grab a line or some fabric i show on the photo where the hand is and what we are doing. So when you grab the A-lines and make the fold between the A and B-lines i show it on the photo, and explain how we are making the fold to expose the center of the canopy. I have noticed that its much better, the students understand what im talking about rather than just saying yes. Before i used the photo i would have to repeat some parts a few times during the following packings, but now it seems as if they at least understand what needs to be done. And it also helps with what you are saying, when you have the canopy over the shoulder you just see a big mess of lines and fabric. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
