specnaz007 0 #151 October 12, 2004 Oops... However, still too much tolerance for me. Garik Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpkid 0 #152 October 13, 2004 That is one of the best replys I have heard on this thread in a long time. Good Stand I like the Vigil I still have not heard any first hand person accounts that I trust. Rock on I dont jump a cypress or a Vigil ... Im Cheap......... and broke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #153 October 13, 2004 QuoteThat is one of the best replys I have heard on this thread in a long time. You are taking the comments of a guy that works for the company as the end all? Thats not exactly the best source for information. Also they STILL have not covered the in air fire in DeLand, a country has grounded them, they had problems and ignored them, then they down played them...ect."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kimgriffin 0 #154 October 13, 2004 Ron, that you think AAD downplayed or ignored the misfire in Deland in Dec 03 is inaccurate. Do you know how many weeks that specific Vigil was put through testing by AAD and by an independent outside the company? AAD was shut down for weeks just to test that one Vigil. The information after testing WAS released to the public. They honest to God could not get that Vigil to misfire again and could not find any problems with it. This was not the answer AAD wanted either, but they refused to lie about it just to please the public. AAD has gone far and beyond what most companies do when there is a problem and they have been more up front than most companies. You would be surprised if you knew what info skydiving mfgs keep from the public (competing AAD's included here), but of course, you can’t know what you don’t know. AAD wants to take the stand of being up front with customers and, so far, they have. The Vigils with the stronger static electrical shielding have been jumped for 7 months now with somewhere over 20,000 jumps on around 1000 units - all different countries, many different climates and types of skydives - no problems. Ron, I noticed that you didn't bother to come question me personally or to check out the Vigil at my booth at the US Nationals. I was hoping you would, tried to smile your way a bunch of times so you would know that I don’t give a shit about the Vigil exchanges we’ve had here this year. I could have even loaned you a ladder to get down off your high horse for a minute. Off the subject… About Sweden... The Swedish Federation is known for taking its time in accepting new skydiving gear (their prerogative... sure they have the jumper's best interest in mind.) I have been told by RWS that it took them a year before the Vector3 would be accepted (and if Bill Booth doesn't have a good reputation for quality, not sure who does.) I agree, jumpers should NOT take the word from a skydiving mfg company is the end all. Hopefully jumpers do what they can to inform themselves about their gear in other ways. But, if John LeBlanc tells you about a PD canopy’s flight characteristics or design, will you listen? I would. Of course, he may promote his product but he also has knowledge about it that I may benefit from knowing. So, I understand and agree that people should look beyond the mfg for gear info, but it’s my opinion that information coming from the people who know the most about the product is indeed useful. ~Kim Griffin Vigil USA DeLand, Fla.-Kimberly Griffin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #155 October 13, 2004 QuoteAlso they STILL have not covered the in air fire in DeLand, a country has grounded them, they had problems and ignored them, then they down played them...ect. Has AirTec addressed every issue? The misfire in Perris that I witnessed (@4500') has never been clearly addressed. That did not stop me from jumping a Cypres. Is it your opinion that AAD is ignoring the issues? How would you even know if they are resolving them or not? Okay, so they replaced the A units. That's hardly ignoring an issue. Your comments are more accusational and lack facts. ...unless your so-called insiders are feeding you intel. It seems to many that a few company reps are here. You want info, they reply, then you dismiss their credibility. Jumpkid made an opinionated comment. He also qualified his statement in which you slam him. You should try looking at it from a different point of view. What if jumpkid made that reply to your post? Would others outline your agenda? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #156 October 13, 2004 QuoteRon, that you think AAD downplayed or ignored the misfire in Deland in Dec 03 is inaccurate. Do you know how many weeks that specific Vigil was put through testing by AAD and by an independent outside the company? AAD was shut down for weeks just to test that one Vigil. The information after testing WAS released to the public. They honest to God could not get that Vigil to misfire again and could not find any problems with it. This was not the answer AAD wanted either, but they refused to lie about it just to please the public. AAD has gone far and beyond what most companies do when there is a problem and they have been more up front than most companies. You would be surprised if you knew what info skydiving mfgs keep from the public (competing AAD's included here), but of course, you can’t know what you don’t know. AAD wants to take the stand of being up front with customers and, so far, they have. So Kim...Whats more dangerous? A problem you know what it is, or a problem you have no idea what the problem was? QuoteRon, I noticed that you didn't bother to come question me personally or to check out the Vigil at my booth at the US Nationals. No offense, but I was at the Nationals and left right after 4 way was done. Also, while I really do trust you personally, I have some doubts about your company. YOU have nothing to do with your companies practices. Again, I don't tend to listen to sales people. I have seen the unit and it physically did impress me. It looks solid and well built, and seems to be easy to use. My problems with the unit are things that can not be seen at a trade show booth. My questions about the practices of the company you work for are historical, and while I do think that they are trying to fix things. I feel that they released a product early, and didn't react fast enough to the problem when it surfaced. So talking to you, while always nice, would not have answered my questions. I have said on here many times that only time will tell the reliability of this device as time has shown the safety of other skydiving inventions. People used to think the CYPRES was a death trap and the NOVA was safe. Time has shown otherwise. This: QuoteI was hoping you would, tried to smile your way a bunch of times so you would know that I don’t give a shit about the Vigil exchanges we’ve had here this year. and then: Quote I could have even loaned you a ladder to get down off your high horse for a minute. So you DO have some feelings about our exchanges. Notice I have never attacked you, I have respect for you...But you just did attack me. Showing you have no respect for me. Quote agree, jumpers should NOT take the word from a skydiving mfg company is the end all. So why should I or anyone take your word for it? Yes, you know more about the product that I do, but it is also your job to sell it. If it were not for the fact that I trust, and respect you personally...I would not even bother responding to you. Its a shame you felt like you needed to attack me."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #157 October 13, 2004 QuoteHas AirTec addressed every issue? The misfire in Perris that I witnessed (@4500') has never been clearly addressed They had addressed every issue I knew of in a expediant and comprehensive manner. QuoteThat did not stop me from jumping a Cypres. That I feel is an error in your thought process. If Ihad unanswered questions, I would not trust the product....You of course are free do do as you please. However, people trusted the NOVA when there were some doubts. Some of them died. QuoteIs it your opinion that AAD is ignoring the issues? No, it is my opinion that the DID ignore the issues till they could not hide from them anymore. QuoteHow would you even know if they are resolving them or not? I think they ARE resolving the problem now...My issue is that it took so long for them to admit a problem...And in some cases such as the in-air fire at DeLand they didn't find a problem...That is more scary than finding a problem to me. Also, saying an AAD is safe to jump till repared/replaced when there was some doubt I think was a bad call. QuoteYour comments are more accusational and lack facts. Fact: They had a problem and said they didn't till there were so many instances that they had to admit a problem. Fact: They admitted an issue, and proposed a solution. However, they said they were save to jump till the units were fixed...all the time with an in-air fire that they could not explain. If I had a product that could kill you if it miss-fired, and it did miss-fire and I KNEW there was a problem. I would not tell you it was safe till you could get them fixed. I would have grounded them, and been much more vocal about the issue (such as RWS and the skyhook issue. They handled that issue with class). I would not attack people who have questions about the product. QuoteYou should try looking at it from a different point of view. What if jumpkid made that reply to your post? Would others outline your agenda? You outline and question my agenda all the time. Why do you think I question the safety of Vigils? I am not sponsored by Airtec, I don't sell skydiving equipment...what is MY reason for questioning the safety of a device that has had problems? So if you look and see what my agenda is...You might understand why I do what I do."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AiRpollUtiOn 0 #158 October 13, 2004 I saw a link to this thread on http://www.paraforum.nl where a discussion about the VIGIL is filling up some pages as well. I read all 7 pages in here and I have a few comments. 1) I see a lot of comments on the commercial aspect of what AAD is doing, and I am amased. Why not make a difference between research/production and sales, as far as I am concearned the sales department is doing a great job, From unknown, VIGIL has started a campaign that you don't see often in this industry, they literally are everywhere, and no skydiver will give you a "what the hell are you talking about" look if you mention the name. If I look at pictures of the championship in Croatia, there's orange T-shirts everywhere. Looking at skydiving magazines, they are in them. Instead of commenting on people like Tom and Kim, we should be amased of what they are doing, without them, we wouldn't even know that this product is around. I had a few jobs in sales and I quickly came to realise that it doesn't matter what you are selling, if you sell lots of it you are doing a good job. *Enough sunshine up theirs...* 2)Let's all agree that we should be lucky to have a company to compete with airtec. I wonder what your VectorIII would cost if relative workshop was the only provider of harnesses... *enough of the obvious...* 3)Take a little look at http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?guest=7432588&do%3Dsearch_results%3Bsearch_forum%3Dall%3Bsearch_user_username%3Dindiana%3Bmh%3D25=Show+user%27s+posts Anybody else see a pattern? If you read this, even if it's not your name I'm pretty sure you know who Tom was talking about, and you and I both know that that name just might have got a lot to do with the fact that VIGIL was on the market too soon. *enough stirring up things when not needed...* 4) As for my own vieuw, I'm happy that my Cypres will be good for another 2 years, so AAD has time enough to prove to the world that they can fix their problems and compete with Airtec. Since the VIGIL comes from the country where my ancestors and I were born, I have to say that as I prefer Brussels sprouts over Bratwürst, I'd love to choose the Vigil instead of the Cypres 2 years (It's not only nationalism that drives me, my Cypress used to belong to my father and Airtec didn't tell him that it would only last for 12 years upon purchase, I share his grudge...>) *enough writing nonsense in a thread when only time will tell...*"Don't make me come down there" - God. My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kimgriffin 0 #159 October 13, 2004 Hi Ron, I am sorry I let my emotions get the best of me. My offer for the ladder was totally uncalled for and unprofessional. But, I'm a skydiver and person over my job at Vigil and sometimes I forget to censor myself. My apologies. It's just that your post below saying that AAD has downplayed and ignored problems pissed me off. It pissed me off because you were spouting this as it was a fact without actually having the facts. You had and have no idea how direct AAD has been with its customers (since you are not a customer). You had no idea how long that one Vigil was tested. It's frustrating when AAD has been up front with their findings and problems to have these things said by you. Not to mention that you don't seem to have anything positive to say, even the Vigil has been working when it should (3 real/necessary activations with skydivers gone low) and not activating when it shouldn't. Also, to say that people shouldn't listen to company officials' input is something I don't agree with. Take what mfg reps say with a grain of salt, that's understandable... but don't discredit people who have spent years researching and testing a product. People who work in the skydiving industry do usually give a shit about the jumpers who buy their products. I never want to disrespect someone's opinion because we're all entitled to them. But, I just have a hard time when I feel someone is offering up information as fact like they know exactly what's going on, when they don't. I know you choose to jump a Cypres, Ron. Totally cool. But, I just don't get why you think Vigil has some evil plot they're hiding from the skydivers. It's just so not true. I don't know when you'll let the horse be dead but I hope someday you do. Or, at least be open to the idea that there can be another good AAD on the market. Something I do respect is that you speak your mind, whether it gets my panties in a bunch or not. So many people don't even question how their gear is packed or what they jump. Questioning in life is good. It's hard to post here when you work for a mfg because if you do post, some people don't want to believe you thinking it's a sales pitch. If you don't post, then you're hiding information. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Okay, I have my white flag hoisted and now will go back to a bunch of work I've put off today. ~Kim Griffin Vigil USA DeLand, Florida QuoteYou are taking the comments of a guy that works for the company as the end all? Thats not exactly the best source for information. Also they STILL have not covered the in air fire in DeLand, a country has grounded them, they had problems and ignored them, then they down played them...ect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #160 October 13, 2004 QuoteHi Ron, I am sorry I let my emotions get the best of me. No problem....I still respect you. QuoteYou had and have no idea how direct AAD has been with its customers (since you are not a customer). True, but I do know how they are being to PROSPECTIVE customers. You guys in marketing are doing great. Vigil ads are everywhere, and the system seems to be everywhere also. My questions have always been about the safety. QuoteNot to mention that you don't seem to have anything positive to say, even the Vigil has been working when it should (3 real/necessary activations with skydivers gone low) and not activating when it shouldn't. Higher up in this very thread I said "It looks solid and well built, and seems to be easy to use". http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1296590#1296590 Here is me saying somehting bad about the CYPRES QuoteBTW I really do hope the Vigil or the Mpad or another GOOD AAD comes out. I am not happy with the CYPRES when it comes to service life. When I bought mine it did not have a life span. So when this CYPRES "dies" I will have to think about what I am going to do...Airtec has offered in my opinion a crappy deal for the trade in. I remember an AD that said something as "the last AAD you will ever need", and "it will last longer than you jump". Here is one of me saying the SAME thing about a CYPRES 2 that I said about the Vigil Quote http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=970312#970312 In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AIRTEC, HOW IS THIS NOT A PROBLEM WORTHY OF A RECALL???? Total baloney. I feel like I can't trust this unit anymore until airtec sees it and does its mod.. even then, I will be quite wary. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As I have always said...Never be the first on the block with a new toy. Heres a post of me lighting into AirtecQuote http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=973099#973099 In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One thing I want to mention again in Airtec's defense is that this display problem is only in a handful of Cypres 2 units -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And only a handful of Novas killed people. Just cause its only a few units...does not make it OK. But the risk of jumping unproven equipment is dealing with new issues....From minor ones, to possibly dangerous ones. This is a minor one. But I would still be pissed if I spent 1200.00 bucks on the thing and it was messed up. And its their problem...THEY should pay to fix it...not expect the customer to pay even the shipping. If I was Airtec...With the Vigil out..I would be bending over to help out those that bought my new CYPRES...Not hanging them out to dry. Heres one where I tell folks not to run out and buy a Neptune. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=644433#644433 The Neptune I now recomend...most of its issues have been resolved. Quote I know you choose to jump a Cypres, Ron. Totally cool. But, I just don't get why you think Vigil has some evil plot they're hiding from the skydivers. It's just so not true. I don't know when you'll let the horse be dead but I hope someday you do. Or, at least be open to the idea that there can be another good AAD on the market. Trust me, I don't have any love for CYPRES (Just ask anyone what I think about AAD's in general) Also if Vigil contiunes it's recent good track when my CYPRES dies I will most likely look at it. I WANT there to be competiton, I WANT a choice. The Vigil has many good parts to it...It seems to have most of its problems fixed. But for me only time will tell if the problems are fixed...For you, me, the skydivers who have one, the skydivers that want one...I hope it proves to be better than the CYPRES2. I know you believe in the product...and that says a lot to me about the product. But with ANY new product I am wary... For your info the Vigil is starting to seem safer to me. QuoteIt's hard to post here when you work for a mfg because if you do post, some people don't want to believe you thinking it's a sales pitch. If you don't post, then you're hiding information. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Yep, that would suck..Like I said Kim, I trust you. But, you don't run the company. Have fun and be safe...."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #161 October 13, 2004 I think you're discovering why most manufacturers choose not to post to these forums. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jrcrackers 0 #162 October 13, 2004 I'll second that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #163 October 14, 2004 QuoteI'll second that Ah, Jeff... holding down the fort, eh?! Kelly just stopped by 'Snore this afternoon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jrcrackers 0 #164 October 14, 2004 yup, somebody's gotta work around here. your handle should go out today Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #165 October 14, 2004 Quoteyup, somebody's gotta work around here. your handle should go out today Right on, dude!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BlueEyedMonster 0 #166 October 15, 2004 QuoteI could have even loaned you a ladder Kim. I love the candidness and the fact that you and 4XTTTOM are involved in this thread and providing the facts to those that are unwilling to follow the proper channels to get the answers for themselves. I love my vigil... and can't wait to replace the cypress in my second rig with another vigil. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverton 0 #167 October 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteI could have even loaned you a ladder Kim. I love the candidness and the fact that you and 4XTTTOM are involved in this thread and providing the facts to those that are unwilling to follow the proper channels to get the answers for themselves. I love my vigil... and can't wait to replace the cypress in my second rig with another vigil. Good for you. I like my cypres. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #168 October 15, 2004 QuoteKim. I love the candidness and the fact that you and 4XTTTOM are involved in this thread and providing the facts to those that are unwilling to follow the proper channels to get the answers for themselves So if I don't just accept what the reps say I am "unwilling to follow proper channels?" Hey, what do you think will happen if you ask Derrick Thomas whats the best rig? If you blindly listen to the people whos job it is to sell the device....you are not getting the facts. I know and trust Kim. I have known her for years. My resistance to the Vigil is NO different to ANY new device that could kill you if it malfunctions. Add in the fact that it has had problems and my doubt grows. Doubt that? Check my posts on CYPRES2 or the Neptune when it first came out. I have been around long enough to see a parade of "Great Inventions" fade away or flat out become dangerous. Feel free to get the information you use to make a choice about a device that could save or kill you from the people who are paid to sell the device....I think that is not the best source to use. Unfortunately we are not big enough of a market to have a "Consumer Reports" type of agency."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #169 October 15, 2004 QuoteUnfortunately we are not big enough of a market to have a "Consumer Reports" type of agency. Sure we are. Honest dealers.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #170 October 15, 2004 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unfortunately we are not big enough of a market to have a "Consumer Reports" type of agency. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sure we are. Honest dealers. Close, but no. QuoteConsumer Reports’ mission is to work for a fair, just and safe marketplace for all consumers and to empower consumers to protect themselves. In addition to being the most trusted name in product testing and reporting, Consumer Reports continues to be recognized as the preeminent source for free information on recalls, health and safety issues, and important social concerns. Consumer Reports continually faces great challenges in meeting its commitment to providing you with the latest and most complete information on all new products and services entering the marketplace. Your tax-deductible donation supports these ongoing testing and information activities of Consumer Reports. Consumer Reports receives no corporate donations, samples, or advertising. We are independent, expert, and unbiased. We rely on the generosity of individuals, foundations and other noncommercial sources to support and further the valuable work and services we provide to consumers. They don't make money off of the products...A GOOD dealer will only sell products he thinks are good....But that in and of itself, is not fair and unbiased. I know great people who are great dealers that wil not sell certain products due to ONE case of a billing problem. So while a GOOD dealer is a great thing they are not totally unbiased."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #171 October 15, 2004 QuoteSo while a GOOD dealer is a great thing they are not totally unbiased. Yeah, you're right. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites checkpoint 0 #172 October 15, 2004 REFERAT TECHNIK T E C H N I K – I N F O Date: 21.09.2004 Concerns: Rejection of the type sample test 64.078.001 Opening device VIGIL History: At 05.12.2003 became via the DFV the type sample test in Germany for the above mentioned equipment final and has the appropriate inspection certificate been given. The distribution took place after submission of all relevant documents and documents from the technology/ test center. The Referat Technik itself did not accomplish any tests and examinations of VIGIL automats, as only the manufacturer (and not the inspection board) had the suitable test equipment. The same kind of procedure is also used with other AAD manufacturers. As usual in such cases, the homologation was granted on basis of the submitted documentations of the tests carried out by the manufacturer and the current handbook. Since then, the device is in practical use. The certificate says that in certain situations functionality and use of the device, according to the handbook, the user is exposed to certain risks. The current information, after one season in practical use, (and not solely based upon our own experience) has raised serious doubts about the correctness of the statements in the handbook and the operational safety of the device. The manufacturer is hereby requested to pass us all and complete information about malfunctions (etc.) and other failures. Points to be clarified in detail: I USE 1. Information from Texel (sea level), several Vigils could not be switched on by high air pressure (and thus best jump weather). Air pressure measurements are obviously only limited possible. The recommendation of the manufacturer to adjust the device by 50 meters cannot be the solution. From what altitude does the device calculate after such a "manual correction" and at what altitude will it activate? 2. The protection of the device against moisture effects of all kinds is insufficient. (Uncontrolled activation a few minutes after water contact!) 3. The tolerance with the release height of +/- 80m according to the manufacturer handbook: A test in Sweden had an outcome that was clearly beyond this already large tolerance. 4. The Device may not, according to the handbook, be adjusted at a landing zone that is below the point of take off. II MAINTAINANCE 1. The user can during a standard battery or Cutter change, damage the not protected electronics. Firm tightening of the screws during a battery change can damage the (printed circuit?) board. 2. The manufacturer indicates a maintenance-free and unlimited life span for the equipment. This seems to us in comparison with a PC not to be realistic. A lifesaving device in parachuting endures clearly more often and more intensive higher loads than a PC. (e.g. temperature, opening shock, equipment handling, landings etc.). 3. Until this date was neither the user nor Referat Technik informed about any changes concerning the functioning of the device and the handbook. The devices are unchanged in use. (Exception: Improvement of electro static shielding) 4. On the (printed circuit?) board is a mechanical potentiometer. If this should adjust itself (e.g. with a battery change), this would not be determined because there is no maintenance. III COMMUNICATION WITH the MANUFACTURER 1. here are still some open questions about: : - Installation instruction (especially interesting the position of the Cutter, and that the manufacturer accepts any kind of Spectra loop.) - set up for installation 2. During communication concerning concrete questions, the technical board got the impression that still the manufacturer itself has to solve the problem and that may questions concerning “everyday use” during the development stage were not sufficient taken into consideration. Action: The Referat Technik stops due to the above mentioned and per … until indefinite date the granted homologation for the Vigil. We see ourselves forced to clarify, first of all in co-operation with the manufacturer, the open questions before the devices in the field may be used again. The Referat Technik strives to clarify and in the interest of all involved what further actions with the manufacturer should be taken concerning this situation and this as soon as possible. Appropriate information will follow soon! The Referat Technik DFV. K Chris Buss – "copy to Advanced Aerospace Design nv/sa. (Belgium) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AiRpollUtiOn 0 #173 October 15, 2004 Whilst my German sucks to a degree that I believe anything you translate, this being your first and only post on the first and only day that you have been active at this forum renders me a bit suspicious. Dark forces are gathering around AAD it seems! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: Maybe this is just the first post in a huge series of them, in that case I already apologise Disclaimer2: I am not in any way connected to any manufacturer in this business, nor do I have any interest in any way in some company making a buck (or euro) more than any other. Just watching this thread with a lot of interest because bad forum-karma seems to be present. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Don't make me come down there" - God. My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BlindBrick 0 #174 October 15, 2004 QuoteREFERAT TECHNIK T E C H N I K – I N F O First, I will admit that I am a Vigil user, however; I think this bulletin raises a couple of valid points. OTOH, as someone professionally trained in business, most of of these reasons seem to be little more than more than nitpicks designed to justify protectionism for a domestic company that enjoys a defacto monoply in the sport AAD market. What I find most troubling is that the valid points of this bulletin could have justified it months ago rather than now as a significant competitor is starting to gain marketshare. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites speedy 0 #175 October 18, 2004 QuoteWhilst my German sucks to a degree that I believe anything you translate, I can assure you that the translation is more or less correct. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 7 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
jumpkid 0 #152 October 13, 2004 That is one of the best replys I have heard on this thread in a long time. Good Stand I like the Vigil I still have not heard any first hand person accounts that I trust. Rock on I dont jump a cypress or a Vigil ... Im Cheap......... and broke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #153 October 13, 2004 QuoteThat is one of the best replys I have heard on this thread in a long time. You are taking the comments of a guy that works for the company as the end all? Thats not exactly the best source for information. Also they STILL have not covered the in air fire in DeLand, a country has grounded them, they had problems and ignored them, then they down played them...ect."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimgriffin 0 #154 October 13, 2004 Ron, that you think AAD downplayed or ignored the misfire in Deland in Dec 03 is inaccurate. Do you know how many weeks that specific Vigil was put through testing by AAD and by an independent outside the company? AAD was shut down for weeks just to test that one Vigil. The information after testing WAS released to the public. They honest to God could not get that Vigil to misfire again and could not find any problems with it. This was not the answer AAD wanted either, but they refused to lie about it just to please the public. AAD has gone far and beyond what most companies do when there is a problem and they have been more up front than most companies. You would be surprised if you knew what info skydiving mfgs keep from the public (competing AAD's included here), but of course, you can’t know what you don’t know. AAD wants to take the stand of being up front with customers and, so far, they have. The Vigils with the stronger static electrical shielding have been jumped for 7 months now with somewhere over 20,000 jumps on around 1000 units - all different countries, many different climates and types of skydives - no problems. Ron, I noticed that you didn't bother to come question me personally or to check out the Vigil at my booth at the US Nationals. I was hoping you would, tried to smile your way a bunch of times so you would know that I don’t give a shit about the Vigil exchanges we’ve had here this year. I could have even loaned you a ladder to get down off your high horse for a minute. Off the subject… About Sweden... The Swedish Federation is known for taking its time in accepting new skydiving gear (their prerogative... sure they have the jumper's best interest in mind.) I have been told by RWS that it took them a year before the Vector3 would be accepted (and if Bill Booth doesn't have a good reputation for quality, not sure who does.) I agree, jumpers should NOT take the word from a skydiving mfg company is the end all. Hopefully jumpers do what they can to inform themselves about their gear in other ways. But, if John LeBlanc tells you about a PD canopy’s flight characteristics or design, will you listen? I would. Of course, he may promote his product but he also has knowledge about it that I may benefit from knowing. So, I understand and agree that people should look beyond the mfg for gear info, but it’s my opinion that information coming from the people who know the most about the product is indeed useful. ~Kim Griffin Vigil USA DeLand, Fla.-Kimberly Griffin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #155 October 13, 2004 QuoteAlso they STILL have not covered the in air fire in DeLand, a country has grounded them, they had problems and ignored them, then they down played them...ect. Has AirTec addressed every issue? The misfire in Perris that I witnessed (@4500') has never been clearly addressed. That did not stop me from jumping a Cypres. Is it your opinion that AAD is ignoring the issues? How would you even know if they are resolving them or not? Okay, so they replaced the A units. That's hardly ignoring an issue. Your comments are more accusational and lack facts. ...unless your so-called insiders are feeding you intel. It seems to many that a few company reps are here. You want info, they reply, then you dismiss their credibility. Jumpkid made an opinionated comment. He also qualified his statement in which you slam him. You should try looking at it from a different point of view. What if jumpkid made that reply to your post? Would others outline your agenda? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #156 October 13, 2004 QuoteRon, that you think AAD downplayed or ignored the misfire in Deland in Dec 03 is inaccurate. Do you know how many weeks that specific Vigil was put through testing by AAD and by an independent outside the company? AAD was shut down for weeks just to test that one Vigil. The information after testing WAS released to the public. They honest to God could not get that Vigil to misfire again and could not find any problems with it. This was not the answer AAD wanted either, but they refused to lie about it just to please the public. AAD has gone far and beyond what most companies do when there is a problem and they have been more up front than most companies. You would be surprised if you knew what info skydiving mfgs keep from the public (competing AAD's included here), but of course, you can’t know what you don’t know. AAD wants to take the stand of being up front with customers and, so far, they have. So Kim...Whats more dangerous? A problem you know what it is, or a problem you have no idea what the problem was? QuoteRon, I noticed that you didn't bother to come question me personally or to check out the Vigil at my booth at the US Nationals. No offense, but I was at the Nationals and left right after 4 way was done. Also, while I really do trust you personally, I have some doubts about your company. YOU have nothing to do with your companies practices. Again, I don't tend to listen to sales people. I have seen the unit and it physically did impress me. It looks solid and well built, and seems to be easy to use. My problems with the unit are things that can not be seen at a trade show booth. My questions about the practices of the company you work for are historical, and while I do think that they are trying to fix things. I feel that they released a product early, and didn't react fast enough to the problem when it surfaced. So talking to you, while always nice, would not have answered my questions. I have said on here many times that only time will tell the reliability of this device as time has shown the safety of other skydiving inventions. People used to think the CYPRES was a death trap and the NOVA was safe. Time has shown otherwise. This: QuoteI was hoping you would, tried to smile your way a bunch of times so you would know that I don’t give a shit about the Vigil exchanges we’ve had here this year. and then: Quote I could have even loaned you a ladder to get down off your high horse for a minute. So you DO have some feelings about our exchanges. Notice I have never attacked you, I have respect for you...But you just did attack me. Showing you have no respect for me. Quote agree, jumpers should NOT take the word from a skydiving mfg company is the end all. So why should I or anyone take your word for it? Yes, you know more about the product that I do, but it is also your job to sell it. If it were not for the fact that I trust, and respect you personally...I would not even bother responding to you. Its a shame you felt like you needed to attack me."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #157 October 13, 2004 QuoteHas AirTec addressed every issue? The misfire in Perris that I witnessed (@4500') has never been clearly addressed They had addressed every issue I knew of in a expediant and comprehensive manner. QuoteThat did not stop me from jumping a Cypres. That I feel is an error in your thought process. If Ihad unanswered questions, I would not trust the product....You of course are free do do as you please. However, people trusted the NOVA when there were some doubts. Some of them died. QuoteIs it your opinion that AAD is ignoring the issues? No, it is my opinion that the DID ignore the issues till they could not hide from them anymore. QuoteHow would you even know if they are resolving them or not? I think they ARE resolving the problem now...My issue is that it took so long for them to admit a problem...And in some cases such as the in-air fire at DeLand they didn't find a problem...That is more scary than finding a problem to me. Also, saying an AAD is safe to jump till repared/replaced when there was some doubt I think was a bad call. QuoteYour comments are more accusational and lack facts. Fact: They had a problem and said they didn't till there were so many instances that they had to admit a problem. Fact: They admitted an issue, and proposed a solution. However, they said they were save to jump till the units were fixed...all the time with an in-air fire that they could not explain. If I had a product that could kill you if it miss-fired, and it did miss-fire and I KNEW there was a problem. I would not tell you it was safe till you could get them fixed. I would have grounded them, and been much more vocal about the issue (such as RWS and the skyhook issue. They handled that issue with class). I would not attack people who have questions about the product. QuoteYou should try looking at it from a different point of view. What if jumpkid made that reply to your post? Would others outline your agenda? You outline and question my agenda all the time. Why do you think I question the safety of Vigils? I am not sponsored by Airtec, I don't sell skydiving equipment...what is MY reason for questioning the safety of a device that has had problems? So if you look and see what my agenda is...You might understand why I do what I do."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AiRpollUtiOn 0 #158 October 13, 2004 I saw a link to this thread on http://www.paraforum.nl where a discussion about the VIGIL is filling up some pages as well. I read all 7 pages in here and I have a few comments. 1) I see a lot of comments on the commercial aspect of what AAD is doing, and I am amased. Why not make a difference between research/production and sales, as far as I am concearned the sales department is doing a great job, From unknown, VIGIL has started a campaign that you don't see often in this industry, they literally are everywhere, and no skydiver will give you a "what the hell are you talking about" look if you mention the name. If I look at pictures of the championship in Croatia, there's orange T-shirts everywhere. Looking at skydiving magazines, they are in them. Instead of commenting on people like Tom and Kim, we should be amased of what they are doing, without them, we wouldn't even know that this product is around. I had a few jobs in sales and I quickly came to realise that it doesn't matter what you are selling, if you sell lots of it you are doing a good job. *Enough sunshine up theirs...* 2)Let's all agree that we should be lucky to have a company to compete with airtec. I wonder what your VectorIII would cost if relative workshop was the only provider of harnesses... *enough of the obvious...* 3)Take a little look at http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?guest=7432588&do%3Dsearch_results%3Bsearch_forum%3Dall%3Bsearch_user_username%3Dindiana%3Bmh%3D25=Show+user%27s+posts Anybody else see a pattern? If you read this, even if it's not your name I'm pretty sure you know who Tom was talking about, and you and I both know that that name just might have got a lot to do with the fact that VIGIL was on the market too soon. *enough stirring up things when not needed...* 4) As for my own vieuw, I'm happy that my Cypres will be good for another 2 years, so AAD has time enough to prove to the world that they can fix their problems and compete with Airtec. Since the VIGIL comes from the country where my ancestors and I were born, I have to say that as I prefer Brussels sprouts over Bratwürst, I'd love to choose the Vigil instead of the Cypres 2 years (It's not only nationalism that drives me, my Cypress used to belong to my father and Airtec didn't tell him that it would only last for 12 years upon purchase, I share his grudge...>) *enough writing nonsense in a thread when only time will tell...*"Don't make me come down there" - God. My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimgriffin 0 #159 October 13, 2004 Hi Ron, I am sorry I let my emotions get the best of me. My offer for the ladder was totally uncalled for and unprofessional. But, I'm a skydiver and person over my job at Vigil and sometimes I forget to censor myself. My apologies. It's just that your post below saying that AAD has downplayed and ignored problems pissed me off. It pissed me off because you were spouting this as it was a fact without actually having the facts. You had and have no idea how direct AAD has been with its customers (since you are not a customer). You had no idea how long that one Vigil was tested. It's frustrating when AAD has been up front with their findings and problems to have these things said by you. Not to mention that you don't seem to have anything positive to say, even the Vigil has been working when it should (3 real/necessary activations with skydivers gone low) and not activating when it shouldn't. Also, to say that people shouldn't listen to company officials' input is something I don't agree with. Take what mfg reps say with a grain of salt, that's understandable... but don't discredit people who have spent years researching and testing a product. People who work in the skydiving industry do usually give a shit about the jumpers who buy their products. I never want to disrespect someone's opinion because we're all entitled to them. But, I just have a hard time when I feel someone is offering up information as fact like they know exactly what's going on, when they don't. I know you choose to jump a Cypres, Ron. Totally cool. But, I just don't get why you think Vigil has some evil plot they're hiding from the skydivers. It's just so not true. I don't know when you'll let the horse be dead but I hope someday you do. Or, at least be open to the idea that there can be another good AAD on the market. Something I do respect is that you speak your mind, whether it gets my panties in a bunch or not. So many people don't even question how their gear is packed or what they jump. Questioning in life is good. It's hard to post here when you work for a mfg because if you do post, some people don't want to believe you thinking it's a sales pitch. If you don't post, then you're hiding information. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Okay, I have my white flag hoisted and now will go back to a bunch of work I've put off today. ~Kim Griffin Vigil USA DeLand, Florida QuoteYou are taking the comments of a guy that works for the company as the end all? Thats not exactly the best source for information. Also they STILL have not covered the in air fire in DeLand, a country has grounded them, they had problems and ignored them, then they down played them...ect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #160 October 13, 2004 QuoteHi Ron, I am sorry I let my emotions get the best of me. No problem....I still respect you. QuoteYou had and have no idea how direct AAD has been with its customers (since you are not a customer). True, but I do know how they are being to PROSPECTIVE customers. You guys in marketing are doing great. Vigil ads are everywhere, and the system seems to be everywhere also. My questions have always been about the safety. QuoteNot to mention that you don't seem to have anything positive to say, even the Vigil has been working when it should (3 real/necessary activations with skydivers gone low) and not activating when it shouldn't. Higher up in this very thread I said "It looks solid and well built, and seems to be easy to use". http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1296590#1296590 Here is me saying somehting bad about the CYPRES QuoteBTW I really do hope the Vigil or the Mpad or another GOOD AAD comes out. I am not happy with the CYPRES when it comes to service life. When I bought mine it did not have a life span. So when this CYPRES "dies" I will have to think about what I am going to do...Airtec has offered in my opinion a crappy deal for the trade in. I remember an AD that said something as "the last AAD you will ever need", and "it will last longer than you jump". Here is one of me saying the SAME thing about a CYPRES 2 that I said about the Vigil Quote http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=970312#970312 In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AIRTEC, HOW IS THIS NOT A PROBLEM WORTHY OF A RECALL???? Total baloney. I feel like I can't trust this unit anymore until airtec sees it and does its mod.. even then, I will be quite wary. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As I have always said...Never be the first on the block with a new toy. Heres a post of me lighting into AirtecQuote http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=973099#973099 In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One thing I want to mention again in Airtec's defense is that this display problem is only in a handful of Cypres 2 units -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And only a handful of Novas killed people. Just cause its only a few units...does not make it OK. But the risk of jumping unproven equipment is dealing with new issues....From minor ones, to possibly dangerous ones. This is a minor one. But I would still be pissed if I spent 1200.00 bucks on the thing and it was messed up. And its their problem...THEY should pay to fix it...not expect the customer to pay even the shipping. If I was Airtec...With the Vigil out..I would be bending over to help out those that bought my new CYPRES...Not hanging them out to dry. Heres one where I tell folks not to run out and buy a Neptune. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=644433#644433 The Neptune I now recomend...most of its issues have been resolved. Quote I know you choose to jump a Cypres, Ron. Totally cool. But, I just don't get why you think Vigil has some evil plot they're hiding from the skydivers. It's just so not true. I don't know when you'll let the horse be dead but I hope someday you do. Or, at least be open to the idea that there can be another good AAD on the market. Trust me, I don't have any love for CYPRES (Just ask anyone what I think about AAD's in general) Also if Vigil contiunes it's recent good track when my CYPRES dies I will most likely look at it. I WANT there to be competiton, I WANT a choice. The Vigil has many good parts to it...It seems to have most of its problems fixed. But for me only time will tell if the problems are fixed...For you, me, the skydivers who have one, the skydivers that want one...I hope it proves to be better than the CYPRES2. I know you believe in the product...and that says a lot to me about the product. But with ANY new product I am wary... For your info the Vigil is starting to seem safer to me. QuoteIt's hard to post here when you work for a mfg because if you do post, some people don't want to believe you thinking it's a sales pitch. If you don't post, then you're hiding information. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Yep, that would suck..Like I said Kim, I trust you. But, you don't run the company. Have fun and be safe...."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #161 October 13, 2004 I think you're discovering why most manufacturers choose not to post to these forums. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrcrackers 0 #162 October 13, 2004 I'll second that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #163 October 14, 2004 QuoteI'll second that Ah, Jeff... holding down the fort, eh?! Kelly just stopped by 'Snore this afternoon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrcrackers 0 #164 October 14, 2004 yup, somebody's gotta work around here. your handle should go out today Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #165 October 14, 2004 Quoteyup, somebody's gotta work around here. your handle should go out today Right on, dude!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #166 October 15, 2004 QuoteI could have even loaned you a ladder Kim. I love the candidness and the fact that you and 4XTTTOM are involved in this thread and providing the facts to those that are unwilling to follow the proper channels to get the answers for themselves. I love my vigil... and can't wait to replace the cypress in my second rig with another vigil. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #167 October 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteI could have even loaned you a ladder Kim. I love the candidness and the fact that you and 4XTTTOM are involved in this thread and providing the facts to those that are unwilling to follow the proper channels to get the answers for themselves. I love my vigil... and can't wait to replace the cypress in my second rig with another vigil. Good for you. I like my cypres. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #168 October 15, 2004 QuoteKim. I love the candidness and the fact that you and 4XTTTOM are involved in this thread and providing the facts to those that are unwilling to follow the proper channels to get the answers for themselves So if I don't just accept what the reps say I am "unwilling to follow proper channels?" Hey, what do you think will happen if you ask Derrick Thomas whats the best rig? If you blindly listen to the people whos job it is to sell the device....you are not getting the facts. I know and trust Kim. I have known her for years. My resistance to the Vigil is NO different to ANY new device that could kill you if it malfunctions. Add in the fact that it has had problems and my doubt grows. Doubt that? Check my posts on CYPRES2 or the Neptune when it first came out. I have been around long enough to see a parade of "Great Inventions" fade away or flat out become dangerous. Feel free to get the information you use to make a choice about a device that could save or kill you from the people who are paid to sell the device....I think that is not the best source to use. Unfortunately we are not big enough of a market to have a "Consumer Reports" type of agency."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #169 October 15, 2004 QuoteUnfortunately we are not big enough of a market to have a "Consumer Reports" type of agency. Sure we are. Honest dealers.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #170 October 15, 2004 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unfortunately we are not big enough of a market to have a "Consumer Reports" type of agency. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sure we are. Honest dealers. Close, but no. QuoteConsumer Reports’ mission is to work for a fair, just and safe marketplace for all consumers and to empower consumers to protect themselves. In addition to being the most trusted name in product testing and reporting, Consumer Reports continues to be recognized as the preeminent source for free information on recalls, health and safety issues, and important social concerns. Consumer Reports continually faces great challenges in meeting its commitment to providing you with the latest and most complete information on all new products and services entering the marketplace. Your tax-deductible donation supports these ongoing testing and information activities of Consumer Reports. Consumer Reports receives no corporate donations, samples, or advertising. We are independent, expert, and unbiased. We rely on the generosity of individuals, foundations and other noncommercial sources to support and further the valuable work and services we provide to consumers. They don't make money off of the products...A GOOD dealer will only sell products he thinks are good....But that in and of itself, is not fair and unbiased. I know great people who are great dealers that wil not sell certain products due to ONE case of a billing problem. So while a GOOD dealer is a great thing they are not totally unbiased."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #171 October 15, 2004 QuoteSo while a GOOD dealer is a great thing they are not totally unbiased. Yeah, you're right. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checkpoint 0 #172 October 15, 2004 REFERAT TECHNIK T E C H N I K – I N F O Date: 21.09.2004 Concerns: Rejection of the type sample test 64.078.001 Opening device VIGIL History: At 05.12.2003 became via the DFV the type sample test in Germany for the above mentioned equipment final and has the appropriate inspection certificate been given. The distribution took place after submission of all relevant documents and documents from the technology/ test center. The Referat Technik itself did not accomplish any tests and examinations of VIGIL automats, as only the manufacturer (and not the inspection board) had the suitable test equipment. The same kind of procedure is also used with other AAD manufacturers. As usual in such cases, the homologation was granted on basis of the submitted documentations of the tests carried out by the manufacturer and the current handbook. Since then, the device is in practical use. The certificate says that in certain situations functionality and use of the device, according to the handbook, the user is exposed to certain risks. The current information, after one season in practical use, (and not solely based upon our own experience) has raised serious doubts about the correctness of the statements in the handbook and the operational safety of the device. The manufacturer is hereby requested to pass us all and complete information about malfunctions (etc.) and other failures. Points to be clarified in detail: I USE 1. Information from Texel (sea level), several Vigils could not be switched on by high air pressure (and thus best jump weather). Air pressure measurements are obviously only limited possible. The recommendation of the manufacturer to adjust the device by 50 meters cannot be the solution. From what altitude does the device calculate after such a "manual correction" and at what altitude will it activate? 2. The protection of the device against moisture effects of all kinds is insufficient. (Uncontrolled activation a few minutes after water contact!) 3. The tolerance with the release height of +/- 80m according to the manufacturer handbook: A test in Sweden had an outcome that was clearly beyond this already large tolerance. 4. The Device may not, according to the handbook, be adjusted at a landing zone that is below the point of take off. II MAINTAINANCE 1. The user can during a standard battery or Cutter change, damage the not protected electronics. Firm tightening of the screws during a battery change can damage the (printed circuit?) board. 2. The manufacturer indicates a maintenance-free and unlimited life span for the equipment. This seems to us in comparison with a PC not to be realistic. A lifesaving device in parachuting endures clearly more often and more intensive higher loads than a PC. (e.g. temperature, opening shock, equipment handling, landings etc.). 3. Until this date was neither the user nor Referat Technik informed about any changes concerning the functioning of the device and the handbook. The devices are unchanged in use. (Exception: Improvement of electro static shielding) 4. On the (printed circuit?) board is a mechanical potentiometer. If this should adjust itself (e.g. with a battery change), this would not be determined because there is no maintenance. III COMMUNICATION WITH the MANUFACTURER 1. here are still some open questions about: : - Installation instruction (especially interesting the position of the Cutter, and that the manufacturer accepts any kind of Spectra loop.) - set up for installation 2. During communication concerning concrete questions, the technical board got the impression that still the manufacturer itself has to solve the problem and that may questions concerning “everyday use” during the development stage were not sufficient taken into consideration. Action: The Referat Technik stops due to the above mentioned and per … until indefinite date the granted homologation for the Vigil. We see ourselves forced to clarify, first of all in co-operation with the manufacturer, the open questions before the devices in the field may be used again. The Referat Technik strives to clarify and in the interest of all involved what further actions with the manufacturer should be taken concerning this situation and this as soon as possible. Appropriate information will follow soon! The Referat Technik DFV. K Chris Buss – "copy to Advanced Aerospace Design nv/sa. (Belgium) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AiRpollUtiOn 0 #173 October 15, 2004 Whilst my German sucks to a degree that I believe anything you translate, this being your first and only post on the first and only day that you have been active at this forum renders me a bit suspicious. Dark forces are gathering around AAD it seems! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: Maybe this is just the first post in a huge series of them, in that case I already apologise Disclaimer2: I am not in any way connected to any manufacturer in this business, nor do I have any interest in any way in some company making a buck (or euro) more than any other. Just watching this thread with a lot of interest because bad forum-karma seems to be present. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Don't make me come down there" - God. My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #174 October 15, 2004 QuoteREFERAT TECHNIK T E C H N I K – I N F O First, I will admit that I am a Vigil user, however; I think this bulletin raises a couple of valid points. OTOH, as someone professionally trained in business, most of of these reasons seem to be little more than more than nitpicks designed to justify protectionism for a domestic company that enjoys a defacto monoply in the sport AAD market. What I find most troubling is that the valid points of this bulletin could have justified it months ago rather than now as a significant competitor is starting to gain marketshare. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #175 October 18, 2004 QuoteWhilst my German sucks to a degree that I believe anything you translate, I can assure you that the translation is more or less correct. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
