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jimmyh

Value (or not) of The List (World BASE Fatality List)

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We are out on a limb here in Kenya and to the best of my knowledge there is at present all of one base jumper(s) in the whole of East and Central Africa: me!

Any & all Knowlege Bases, Wikki's, Forums, "Lists" and helpful people ie TA & Sean (when he was still with us) are invaluable to me.

I constantly study all of the above, formulate my own opinions and ideas and modify my Base behaviour accordingly.

I respect the various points of view expressed in this thread and vote in favour of the List.

John

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As someone who's friend is on the list, I would request to keep the list up. After reading this thread the other day, I went to the website today so I could see his pic and remember him and the others I have heard about on this forum...several people died around the same time. The list is not available.

I am not a base jumper, but have considered it. *After* reading the list I decided that for me, the risk outweighs the benefit...after my son and grandson are in college maybe, but not before that! ;) The list reminds me whenever I think I want to have an adventure, that skydiving is enough adventure for me for now. I find the list necessary to help people make informed decisions.

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As someone who's friend is on the list, I would request to keep the list up. After reading this thread the other day, I went to the website today so I could see his pic and remember him and the others I have heard about on this forum...several people died around the same time. The list is not available.

... I find the list necessary to help people make informed decisions.



+1

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I have one BASE jump but am not a BASE jumper. I have three close friends on the list, including one that coached me thru my one BASE jump. I think the list should remain, it serves more than one purpose. It is a memorial for my friends, and it is a reminder of the ultimate price that we all may have to pay if we BASE.

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As far as an informational site in order to keep your self alive, i think that if you need the site to stay alive then you might not have enough common sense to be a BASE jumper

Common sense says that if you rig or pack your gear wrong then you will probably die.

common sense would also tell you that if you fail to have a canopy above your head at a reasonable altitude you will also not survive.

common sense tells you that if you strike the object you just jumped from even if it is not your fault chances are you are not going to make it.

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Clair,

I'm not flaming you but... Common sense...

You are incorreclty using the phrase to refer to beliefs or propositions as opposed to "common natural understanding."

People can use common sense to use the BFL to gain esoteric knowledge (Esotericism largely overlaps with "hidden knowledge"). You could say one can, "enlighten themselves" by reading the BFL

I feel that the site aids in Jumpers decision making process and helps them to formulate their own educated decision.

Bottom line is that Common Sense is a societal ideaology (an organized collection of ideas). These specific ideas's are stored on a NDG's personal webpage.

Really, Common sense, is not so common anymore. Then again maybe you'd like to see more people die? ( I seriously doubt that You'd want that) You can not say that the list does not and has not helped!

Further, last time this discussion occurred, the idea of shutting it down was shot down.

You would like the site closed? Then become less hostile and more agreeable). Come up with a plan of action that is agreeable to most so the BASE community can make their input...

Again this is not a flame. I just want to know what you think, not what someone may or may not have scripted. What ideas do you have?

Seriously I doubt that NDG, or the community at large, would ever take the site down, so what ideas do you have that would help, instead of "knocking" the list?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
There are some of you that want a statistics page? Then someone put their money where their mouth is and make one.
Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

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Memorial sites are memorial sites. The BFL is the BFL. It is useful for many purposes, and if someone doens't like it, they should not read it. I notice that the Honestly I don't Give a Fuck (HIDGAF) crowd didn't previously note any objections to the BFL. So what has changed? Do you give a fuck a now? Should everyone else honestly give a fuck, since you profess not to? Or did you just not give a fuck until it was someone you cared about?

Sorry it was one of your friends this time.

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My distaste with the list began while I was teaching Clair to BASE jump. In fact, that was when I first became aware of it's existence.

She got the "did you read list?" thing so many times it became apparent that BASE jumpers have, in my opinion, a morbid fascination with that list.

"Did you read it? huh? did you? Did you read it again? huh? Still wanna BASE jump now? Read the List yet? You better read that list right now before you proceed one step further."

Why not just, "please think about what you are getting yourself into. THis is a very unforgiving sport which has resulted in the deaths of many people and the injury, sometimes life changing, of many others."

And now recently, for reasons I will never feel a need to justify, I don't think Jimmy Hall's name should go up there, and for that matter how about an alternative to the way it has been historically maintained if not a complete dismantle?

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She got the "did you read list?" thing so many times it became apparent that BASE jumpers have, in my opinion, a morbid fascination with that list.



That's your interpretation. It's also possible that they were actually trying to convince her to slow down (and make a couple skydives) before getting into BASE, or that they thought her approach was likely to result in problems, and wanted to dissuade her.



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Why not just, "please think about what you are getting yourself into. THis is a very unforgiving sport which has resulted in the deaths of many people and the injury, sometimes life changing, of many others."



In many ways, reading an actual list of names, with photos and background, brings the reality home in a way that a few simple sentences never could. It also provides some historical and cultural referents that are difficult to obtain in other ways.


Let me turn the question on it's head:

Why did you, Jimmy, think that it was a problem that people asked Clair to read the list? Do you think that BASE students generally ought to be steered away from such information?



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And now recently, for reasons I will never feel a need to justify, I don't think Jimmy Hall's name should go up there...



Does this mean that you have finally found something that in fact, you honestly do give a fuck about?

While that sounds flippant, the point I'm trying to make is that you have spent years promoting your "Honestly I Don't Give A Fuck" philosophy. Why has it abandoned you (or perhaps you have abandoned it) now?
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I wanted to also say, in regards to the "other sports don't have a list" comments from some in this thread:

Accidents in North American Mountaineering is compiled and printed by the American Alpine Club and distributed to their entire membership each year. It is also available for purchase at numerous stores, including your local REI.

The United States Parachute Association compiles and prints accident reports in every issue of their official publication Parachutist, which is distributed to the entire membership of the organization.

The United States Hangliding and Paragliding Association, maintains an accident database on it's official web site.


The National Transportation Safety Board maintains a database of aviation accidents, as does the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association.


The argument that "no one else keeps a list" is fairly difficult to sustain in the face of a few quick Google searches.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Clair,

It's always been hard to figure where the line lies between "old school" and "new school" in this sport as it is constantly shifting. But, I think I'm safe in saying, in a personal sense, that line of demarcation clearly separates you and I.

I do, on the other hand, respect your opinion enough to answer you, and also others, who have voiced a negative view of the List. As I've now removed the List from the Internet I also owe an explanation to its supporters.

I won't begin by saying the BASE community was more tightly knit when the List began, as I'm sure Clair, in your world, it seems the same. So I'll try to hit the solvent points and forgive me if I'm not at my best, as today my soul feels dusted . . .

I always endeavor to put other's opinions in some kind of context. I think Jason Bell actually believes the sport would be better off without the List. He is a proponent of more legal sites and there's no doubt that would be easier to achieve, in most cases, without us trotting out our mistakes.

Jimmy Halliday makes the case that no one should be reduced to being a name on the List. Point taken, and you'd never know the responsibility of editing someone's life into a single paragraph unless you had to do it.

But the ying to that yang, is no one who begins BASE jumping in the next five years will even know Jimmy Hall's name if he wasn't on the List. I also see it as a bit disingenuous, on your part Jimmy, that you never expressed angst for any former members of the List, until your "friend" was about to join it. And you must admit, even as I know you're not exactly a newbie, you must see people's names on the List you never heard of, and wouldn't know. And they had friends too.

Then there is the subject of numbering the fatalities. Clair, in your case, you came to BASE when the number had maybe lost its original meaning. I remember when we would sit around and lament 15 of us being dead. Many, and most who don't inhabit your world, are still around and the number being at 112 does mean something to them. Its not abstract, it’s just a longer view you don’t yet hold. I'm here to tell you, when in the latter stages of your life, and BASE career, you'll probably change your mind. If I'm wrong I can only hope I'm around in twenty years to hear about it . . .

Jason, you're easy to say to the List should reflect facts and figures, but the List, since day one was never about that. As you've been the chief proponent against the List I'll tell you this. The List is all about the human aspect, and what makes it real is the names and the numbers and, you brother, you are stone cold in your resentment of that.

The List, in my final analysis, is a map of where we've been and where we are going. I'll suggest those that disagree are agenda driven and aren’t capable of having the best interests of the sport at heart. That's a pretty strong statement. But if proven wrong I will aqueous.

But god help us if I'm right . . .

I'll leave you with this. Don’t make the mistake that I won’t enjoy not doing the List anymore. I'll revel in it. It’s the very reason I didn't pass it on to someone else. I couldn't, in clear conscious, saddle someone else with something so depressing. So in a way, yes, I caved. I caved to a present generation not willing or able to see the value of it. And in the end the book burners George Orwell warned us about, won out.

But, know this. The final fatality listed on the BASE Fatality List wasn't a living breathing brother or sister, it was more than that, it was the truth . . .

NickD :)BASE 194

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In many ways, reading an actual list of names, with photos and background, brings the reality home in a way that a few simple sentences never could. It also provides some historical and cultural referents that are difficult to obtain in other ways.



I'm really thankful that the BFL was one of the first things I found and read after I started taking a serious interest in BASE. Every single addition to the list since then has left me reeling like a punch in the gut. I don't know if anything else would be quite so effective at making me think "This is serious. Maybe I don't want to do this after all. I better take things pretty slowly." Just having someone say "this is dangerous, you know.. you might even get killed!" just doesn't strike home in the same way.

I'm also bothered that there are still lessons to be learned by the recent entries, things to add to checklists and to my training... [:/]
Looking for newbie rig, all components...

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The list...

Those who do not know history are only doomed to repeat it.

Keep the list the same.
Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

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(chime) How 'bout a list of "ONLY NAMES"? And a site with "NO NAMES" just how the death occoured?

For example...A BASE jumper with ### of BASE jumps had an uneventfull exit and freefall/track from an(a) B, A, S, E. during the deployment of the PC etc,etc,etc,etc?

(/chime)
"Don't keep your pilot chute a secret"

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I try to refrain from writing to this website, but in this case I feel I must. Every base jumper has their own personality, individual as a fingerprint, but base as a whole has one personality that shifts ever so slightly with change of individuals.

As a BASE jumper brought out just a year ago through old skool teaching and hard work by BASE 17, I am ever saddened that I have been on this ride long enough to know that it is changing.

I was present for two peoples ends on Nick's list and believe that in losing the list we are losing the bond that so much makes us one.

I said to a friend with a broken back from a parachute accident last night, that I am afraid to jump now adays because of the risk of getting caught. So many stupid jumpers have ruined sites and alerted enemies of BASE to our presence. The whole, known as the BASE community, is changing!!!!

Change can be good or bad, as long as we stay together, it will be positive.

~Taylor
(A supporter of the BFL, BASE, and all those jumpers that do it for the chicks)
-Taylor
"Can't plan fantastic!!!!!"

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whatever part of BASE i am, i have an opinion.

of the 3 votes that can exist,
1-get rid of the list totaly
2-get rid of the names and personal info on the existing list,
3-leave it how it is.

my vote would be the third, leave it. I have nothing in my life i need to protect, and if i did something stupid to kill myself, i dont want my name censored, because that would be nothing less than censorship.

but, anyone that has a problem with the nameless/impersonal list idea has something wrong with them.

leave the list up, remove names and personal info. its a good comprimise.

is there not a place online for skydiving fatality info? (i really dont know)

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nick as disappointed as i am in your decision to remove the list, i respect it because it was yours to make.




Agreed.

However, I find it funny, Jimmy H, once stated:

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What on God's green earth does my reading or not reading the fatality list have to do with anything. I know of most of the fatalities already and the ones I don't know about wouldn't surprise me.



[url]http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1798789#1798789


I know this post was made a long long long time ago, when you were teaching a wee 16 yr old lass named Clair to BASE jump....

So what changed Jimmy? HIDGAF? I know I'd like to know.

_justin

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thank you, thats only part of parachutist i read, then toss it in the fire.

Nick,
I respect your decision along with everyone else.

is there a chance for a fatality list, only nameless?

Im not good enough to run it, but there are a few that could.

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is there a chance for a fatality list, only nameless?

Im not good enough to run it, but there are a few that could.



Anyone who wants to is free to compile the data, with or without names, and do whatever they like with it, including creating a website.

Nick has put significant effort into the words he used on The List, and out of respect for him no one should plagiarize his text, but the underlying facts of the accidents, as well as identifying details and biographical information, are all in the public domain.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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