millertime24 8 #1 May 8, 2011 Ill man up and admit a mistake I made for the educational benefit of others. Basically I flew a tight pattern with a high speed approach and cut off a guy flying a much larger pattern doing toggle 90's. While I was well below the other guy on final and I saw him the whole time and flew accordingly (in my mind) there was still a risk of collision that my S&TA decided was significant enough to remind me of. In the attached pic, the black area is the LZ. The red line is my pattern, and the green line is the other guys pattern. After "the talk" I adjusted my pattern/behavior to enhance safer landings. Maybe there's something to be learned here, or maybe I'm just an idiot for doing what I did. Anywho, this is just a heads up on how you may endanger your fellow jumpers.Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrmrangers 0 #2 May 8, 2011 Thank you for manning up and posting that. Not everyone would have. Actually when i first saw the heading i thought your girlfreind gave you "The Talk" Wait , I pull what first? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #3 May 8, 2011 Thanks, man. It's that kind of thinking that will take our canopy collision issue in the right direction. Quick post-jump question: was the other jumper ever within striking distance had he/she made an unexpected move at the wrong moment?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,148 #4 May 8, 2011 Good post, thanks. Part of being safe isn't just knowing that you can handle the situation, it's being predictable enough that everyone else can handle it too. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #5 May 9, 2011 Well done. It takes balls to fess up to a mistake. Hopefully others will follow your example.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #6 May 9, 2011 good job admitting the error and applying correction to your flight pattern. Could you please attach in another format that my work computer could open ?scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #7 May 9, 2011 I had the same problem but when i open it as a zip, one file makes sense in the "zip" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #8 May 9, 2011 Thanks for posting. I aborted 3 of 3 swoops on Friday because my setup was off (I was not having a good pattern flying day!). I know if I had carried out any of those I would have got "talked to" as well!"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #9 May 9, 2011 QuoteThanks, man. It's that kind of thinking that will take our canopy collision issue in the right direction. Quick post-jump question: was the other jumper ever within striking distance had he/she made an unexpected move at the wrong moment? No, there is no way the other canopy could have struck me. He was too far above and behind on final, but I guess it's about setting good examples for everyone. S&TA says he wants us flying bigger patterns, then Ill (aside from solo H&P's) fly a bigger pattern.Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #10 May 9, 2011 QuoteThanks for posting. I aborted 3 of 3 swoops on Friday because my setup was off (I was not having a good pattern flying day!). I know if I had carried out any of those I would have got "talked to" as well! And what happens when you don't realize that your "setup was off". There have been way more experinced jumpers that didn't know when not to go for their swoop. Unless I am a hop and pop or a clear pull from altitude I will only do a conventional pattern with a 90 degree turn on to final, and I try my best to keep my head on a swivel and stay ahead of my canopy because it is going to overtake slower canopies."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #11 May 9, 2011 QuoteAnd what happens when you don't realize that your "setup was off". Well that's sort of the point, isn't it? If you have a plan, and you know what to expect then you can tell when you're not "on" for that plan and then you have to decide whether to proceed with a HP turn or just fly a regular pattern. IMO a swoop is a privilege for having everything go as planned not a right on every jump. QuoteThere have been way more experinced jumpers that didn't know when not to go for their swoop. Exactly. Complacency kills. QuoteUnless I am a hop and pop or a clear pull from altitude I will only do a conventional pattern with a 90 degree turn on to final, and I try my best to keep my head on a swivel and stay ahead of my canopy because it is going to overtake slower canopies. I was doing high-pulls on all these jumps and landing in the further of two LZs - everyone else was planning on the near one. On two of my jumps I reached my setup point too low and on one a tandem had decided to land in my designated LZ for some reason. Result = no HP turns."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianM 1 #12 May 9, 2011 QuoteI had the same problem but when i open it as a zip, one file makes sense in the "zip" It's an Open Document format. You can open it with Open Office (or a number of other applications). MS Word will open it but messes it up. I've converted it to a PNG, see attached."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #13 May 9, 2011 QuoteIll man up and admit a mistake I made for the educational benefit of others. Basically I flew a tight pattern with a high speed approach and cut off a guy flying a much larger pattern doing toggle 90's. Is this how you have been flying your pattern? In other words, was this "talking to" a result of you doing something different than standard practice or was it a result of increased vigilance at your DZ over pattern discipline? What sort of high speed approach? Front risering a 90*? Great than 90?"What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyper 0 #14 May 9, 2011 I saw similar drawings in the caves of Babylon dated some 2000 years B.C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #15 May 9, 2011 Quote I saw similar drawings in the caves of Babylon dated some 2000 years B.C. So despite what some have said, this is not a new problem "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #16 May 9, 2011 Quote I saw similar drawings in the caves of Babylon dated some 2000 years B.C. Must have been Twardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #17 May 9, 2011 I don't see what the problem is. Red guy coming in lower and faster turns inside and gives the higher, slower green guy plenty of room on the right. No paths crossed. That's the way is should be done in those instances. Also, we don't know enough to comment on how the vertical separation got the way it was.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #18 May 10, 2011 QuoteI don't see what the problem is. Red guy coming in lower and faster turns inside and gives the higher, slower green guy plenty of room on the right. No paths crossed. that's what I see here too. Scenario = Red guy comes in and sees he may be in the way of green guy if he continues, so he turns short to avoid the potential (but unlikely since he's lower, faster, and making a more radical move now) collision.... The problem being, is he turned hard from downwind to final and if someone would have been in the pattern behind him now, then that could have been an issue maybe. but...green guy does a nice predictable pattern. red guy got stuck having to avoid and do a 180 in the pattern - possibly too low ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #19 May 10, 2011 QuoteWhat sort of high speed approach? Front risering a 90*? Great than 90? This. And if you'll notice the camera never sees the green canopy the whole time (I saw him though). Also, after landing I had enough time to get the toggles out of my hands and shut off the camera before the guy I cut off landed. Again, it's more of a "don't do it because this isn't the behavior that should happen in the pattern. Vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqnRxGKy1RAMuff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #20 May 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteWhat sort of high speed approach? Front risering a 90*? Great than 90? This. And if you'll notice the camera never sees the green canopy the whole time (I saw him though). Also, after landing I had enough time to get the toggles out of my hands and shut off the camera before the guy I cut off landed. Again, it's more of a "don't do it because this isn't the behavior that should happen in the pattern. Vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqnRxGKy1RA So was it the fact that you did a 270 into the main landing area that the S&TA objected to?"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #21 May 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat sort of high speed approach? Front risering a 90*? Great than 90? This. And if you'll notice the camera never sees the green canopy the whole time (I saw him though). Also, after landing I had enough time to get the toggles out of my hands and shut off the camera before the guy I cut off landed. Again, it's more of a "don't do it because this isn't the behavior that should happen in the pattern. Vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqnRxGKy1RA So was it the fact that you did a 270 into the main landing area that the S&TA objected to? Not exactly. The "main" landing area is our only landing area. I did a 270 knowing that the speed of my canopy would put me far below and ahead of the jumper I cut off. He objected to doing this ANY traffic regardless of situational awareness. His reasoning is sound. If I do it and some junior jumper sees and thinks its ok for them to do then we start breeding an unsafe "if he can do it so can I" attitude. My S&TA even told me different locations and approaches to make such a maneuver in a safer manner while he was talking to me. And thats another thing, when people approach me with a "this was a bad idea and heres why, but heres how you can do what you want in a safer manner" I tend to listen and appreciate the advice given more.Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #22 May 10, 2011 Quote Quote I saw similar drawings in the caves of Babylon dated some 2000 years B.C. Must have been Twardo Wait...WHAT?! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #23 May 10, 2011 Quote Quote Quote I saw similar drawings in the caves of Babylon dated some 2000 years B.C. Must have been Twardo Wait...WHAT?! I suck at art so you fags can piss off. BTW, what did guys like Twardo use as parachutes 2000 years ago?Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #24 May 10, 2011 ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #25 May 10, 2011 His parachute came out of the sky like a rock... because it was made of rock!--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
