pilotdave 0 #26 March 2, 2004 Just buy used. ZP isn't so bad to pack once it has over about 100 jumps on it. When I bought my Sabre2, I specifically went looking for one with ~100 jumps at the size I wanted. Found the perfect one, even in perfect colors to match my gear, in the dz.com classifieds. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #27 March 2, 2004 QuoteHi Dave, Thanx for your input! While I've looked at the Sabre 2, I scratched it off of my list early on, but haven't yet looked at the PD 9 Cell...worth a gander. BBS Tiger the silhouette is a 9 cell, half F111, half ZP, flies well. Many people at my DZ have that. Gives you better landings than a navigator or a PD, and is still very conservative.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #28 March 2, 2004 Quotehiya piis That's a great idea, and exactly what I'm going to do...I'm going to a c/c camp in Deland in April, and hope to narrow down my choices to a few. Through comments and my own research, I'd ideally be looking for a LAR, 7-cell, ZP-F111 hybrid. What's interesting are the wing loadings for each kind of canopy...on some I'd go 230, and on others, 260, 240, etc. I've also read that for a beginner, I'd want a .5 - .75 wing load. When I'm comfortable on the student 290, I'll start downsizing slowly to around 240, that way 230's or 260's won't be such a big move. This stuff is amazing me...so many options!! Thanx for your advice, it was short, sweet and very useful. BBS Tiger If your reserve is loaded at .95, why do you want to fly a main at .5 ?? depending on what you can do under canopy with your 22 jumps, talk with your instructors etc, and check for a .95 bound canopy... Otherwise you'll have to buy a new canopy every 3 weeks. Not an incitation for downsizing too quickly. More an incitation to purchase a bit slower. nevertheless, better to buy a bit bigger than a bit smallerscissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #29 March 2, 2004 I have the silhouette and love it. Personally, I found it much easier to land than the spectre, but that's just me. you might be different. I like the way the silhouette handles, and its really easy to pack because of the hybrid fabrics (ZP topskin, F111 bottom). Jump a bunch of canopies, PACK a bunch of canopies, and then decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #30 March 2, 2004 QuoteJump a bunch of canopies, PACK a bunch of canopies, and then decide Jump a bunch of canopies, PACK my canopy, and then decide scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #31 March 2, 2004 From your discription of your experience I (with my limited experience) actually find myself in a position to give useful advice yay I went from a static line program flying Manta 280+sqft to the program at SDC, my first jump there was with a Saber2 210.. and it was the best landing I'd had yet, Loaded under 1:1 the saber2 is forgiving (I weigh about 180 with gear) I've sense worked down to the point where I'll be on a 170 as my first main and I went with the LOTUS .. I like the airlocks and the Louts and saber2 are so close in design and fly very simmilarly .. if anything the Lotus is More Square and forgiving then the saber2 and the airlocks are a plus to holding wing shape in rough air especially at low wingloading.. only problem is they are not findable used not enough of them running around, but if you do go new Lotus can be found new cheeper then saber2 in a lot of cases. a couple of notes 1 the air locks add some size to the pack job both the extra fabric and the extra trapped air if your not careful, so if you go with a lotus Make sure your bag will fit it (about 5% bigger then an equivelant size saber2) until I get better at a propacking I'll probably use sidepacking or start by laying the chute out like a sidepack rolling over it to push the air out, then CAREFULLY repositon it to propack. I dont know your exit weight but to protect a knee I'd get on a Large Saber2 and have a coach really pound good flare into me, then get a Lotus(or whatever) and have a coach watch my landings and again improve my flair. A good flair will land you softer then a big chute with bad flair anyday and I've found the saber2 much easier to flair the the mantas .. and the "novice in high wind" isnt a problem your not gonna jump in that high of wind and the owners manual has a really easy instruciton for "grounding" the lotus after landing. The kind of wind that would be a real problem would be a problem under any main. Again I am a total novice but my experience is close to yours and I've made the transition your looking at. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
damion75 0 #32 March 2, 2004 I will probably get shot down in flames for saying this, but here goes anyway! The advice I got when buying my first canopy was not to buy one that was too big! I was going to get a 190 loading at about 0.9 and all the instructors recommended that I go for a 170 instead (1.1:1) - I am so glad I did. After doing AFF on Manta (288 sq ft?) I went straight onto PD9 Cells 210/190 and then pretty quickly onto Silhouette 190s by about Jump 25. I didnt find that too fast at all. I now have a Spectre 170 and yes it is much faster than the rental PD 210s at the DZ, but the flare is so much more powerful that the landings are easier. I have also inevitably screwed it up on a few occasions (!) and it is a very forgiving canopy. So what am I saying? Buy a size you are comfortable with but remember that for this amount of money you want it to last for a while - so it might be worth waiting a little longer and THEN buying something a little smaller. And Spectres rule!*************** Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #33 March 2, 2004 QuoteI will probably get shot down in flames for saying this, but here goes anyway! Yup. You probably will. QuoteThe advice I got when buying my first canopy The advice you got was likely given specifically for your situation. Do you jump at a dz at 5000 feet like the person who started this thread? Perhaps this person isn't picking up canopy control quite as fast as you did. Do you have previous injuries to protect like this person does? What wingloading is right for one person isn't always what's going to be right for another person. Because of this, advice given over the internet on canopy sizing should either be "talk to your instructors" or be extremely conservative. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,405 #34 March 2, 2004 I recommend you look at the Pilot. I have had very good luck with it, as have several intermediate skydivers at Perris. It's a little higher performance than the Spectre, but doesn't have the 1000+ foot snivels of the Spectre. I have also had good luck with the Silhouette. Both the Silhouette and the Pilot have F111 ribs which makes them a bit easier to pack. >My primary JM highly recommended the Spectre, saying it was very > forgiving, shallow glide and crisp turns . . . . You'll notice that the Spectre has a slightly steeper glide than canopies like the Pilot and Silhouette. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #35 March 2, 2004 >>Also in high winds I would find I had no flare, I guess cause I had no forward speed to convert to lift. << Your airspeed was the same in high winds as low. The only speed that matters to your canopy is airspeed, and a STEADY wind will not affect that. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dubbayab 0 #36 March 3, 2004 Dude, What? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GentleTiger 0 #37 March 3, 2004 Hi dub, wow, you had some high wing loadings!! I'm planning on staying at .5 - .75 for a good while, at least until I get a better understanding of the science of flaring. once again I find myself leaning toward the spectre, but will probably check out a few canopies at the C/C camp at Deland. BBS Tiger________________________________________ Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #38 March 3, 2004 Hey! Come on! Dont listen anyone ! Trust your instinct. You know it better! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GentleTiger 0 #39 March 3, 2004 Aaaaah, so you've seen my ballet-like butt slide have you?? Your comments are well said, and once again I find myself back to the Spectre...the Triathalon has been mentioned as well...any thoughts on that? Thank you so much for your input, let's try to hook up over the weekend so I know who I'm talking to! BBS Tiger________________________________________ Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GentleTiger 0 #40 March 3, 2004 Hi Cruz Thanx, and ya, I've finally made at least one decision I'll be going with a 7 cell...interestingly enough, the Triathalon was suggested to me yesterday...she said it was just like the spectre, but it has a coating over the ZP to make it easier to pack...any thoughts on that? The outpouring of advice, support and perspectives has been amazing, I've really learned a lot these last few days, and am trying to keep up with all the responses! BBS Tiger________________________________________ Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #41 March 3, 2004 Hey! Slow down! If I were you I wouldnt buy anything yet. Ive just bought my own gear. Ive tried several. Can you say the same? Anyway whats to point to buy something if you are going to sell it in 50 jumps? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GentleTiger 0 #42 March 3, 2004 Hi Dave, Ya, my primary JM suggested that I get a used spectre to save a lot of hassle trying to pack...as of now I'm also looking that the triathalon, any thoughts? I hear it's coated to make it much easier to pack, and it's just like a spectre in every other way. You were lucky to get your colors! BBS Tiger________________________________________ Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GentleTiger 0 #43 March 3, 2004 Hi piis, as of now I'm comparing the spectre vs the triathalon...my wingloading will most likey be in the .75 range, and I figure a heavier w/l on my reserve will still get me down safely, without the bulk of a canopy with a higher w/l...does that make any sense to you? thanx piis, Tiger________________________________________ Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DancingFlame 0 #44 March 3, 2004 As I heard, Spectre has better flare than Triathlon and turns a little quicker. Triathlon is good at CRW, Spectre is not that good, well, it seems like you will not go for CRW So you'll made a wise decision if you choose Spectre. Again, you should better try these canopies yourself. Do not listen to some people offering high wing load, trust yourself and your instructors. Parachute is a tool for landing and not for killing. Ah, and add Icarus Safire2 to your list. At W/L ~1.0 this canopy performs very well. It has flatter glide and flares better than the Spectre. The only disadvantage, one cannot find any used canopies on the market Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #45 March 3, 2004 QuoteI'll be going with a 7 cell... Strongly advise you to not make a decision until you've had a chance to jump a number of different canopies. There's no rush. You may spend a bit in gear rental, but you'll be happiest with what you buy in the long run if you take the time to explore everything that is suitable for and available to you. Canopies I would recommend you putting some demo jumps on - Spectre, Triathlon, Sabre2, Safire2, Pilot. Talk to your instructors and the guys you take the canopy course from about what sizes to jump. Don't buy any main until you have already (safely) downsized to the size that your instructors and the canopy control coaches suggest will be best for your next 100 jumps or so. Once you know what size that will be you can go ahead and get your container/reserve/AAD, then continue to demo mains until you are at the size you want or until you decide which one you like best. Again, don't rush deciding which main canopy to buy. That's a lot of money to spend only to decide 10 jumps after you get it that you kinda don't like the way it flares, sinks, glides, the toggle pressure... Especially if you're buying new. Re: Triathlons vs Spectres. The Triathlon is a seven cell, zp main with a rectangular shape. The Spectre is a seven cell zp main with a "tapered" or "slightly elliptical" or "semi-elliptical" shape. This shaping gives the Spectre a bit faster turns than a similarly sized Tri, and also contributes to the Spectre's smooth slow openings. They are both great canopies, and both are very suitable for a novice at a light wingloading. A new Triathlon will be just as hard to pack as a new Spectre will be. Older Tri's were built with a different fabric that was less slippery than what they are made out of now. Any zp canopy with a hundred or so jumps on it is going to be easier to pack than a brand new one will be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 135 #46 March 3, 2004 QuoteAh, and add Icarus Safire2 to your list. At W/L ~1.0 this canopy performs very well. It has flatter glide and flares better than the Spectre. I would personnally not recommend this canopy, and the manufacturer would certainly not recommend it either with the jump experience of the person who started the thread. maybe an Omin form Icarus, which is also a 7 cell, slightly elliptical, and which would certaily be more recommended than a Saphire2. concerning the new wingloadind after Cutaway, the difference in weight would be approx 5lbs ... not much to take into consideration... Oh yeah, add to that the 4 pints of sweat you lose when you cutaway scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymedic 0 #47 March 3, 2004 I had about the same jump numbers as him when I was recomended a safire 1 from Simon no less, back on 2001 when I started jumping. A safire can be flown and safely flown at that wing loading. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 135 #48 March 3, 2004 OK, if you say so... OKOK, they say so too : QuoteWe recommend it for wing loadings from .75 PSF to 1.6 PSF. scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #49 March 3, 2004 Yeah, I gotta agree with skybytch about demoing everything before you choose. It can be hard to do when you don't own a container. You could possibly buy a container and reserve first, and use it to demo canopies. I was really ready to buy a spectre based on everything I read about it. Even after jumping it I was pretty sure it was what I wanted. Then I tried the Sabre2, which I was barely considering because of the higher performance that I didn't want, and changed my mind completely. To demo a canopy, you'll need a container, deployment bag, and pilot chute. You don't need risers. The dbag and pilot chute should come with any container you buy (new or used...buy used!). I'm sure there are places you can demo canopies and containers. Might want to ask at your DZ. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #50 March 3, 2004 QuoteThank you so much for your input, let's try to hook up over the weekend so I know who I'm talking to! You've seen me at the DZ countless times. I just don't really go by my screen name at the DZ because well it's NOT a nickname. Anyway, unless I sneak a jump in Saturday morning, you won't see me on Saturday as I'll be playing in a volleyball tournament. But weather permitting, you'll see me on Sunday. And as for what canopy to buy? I like what Lisa (Skybytch) wrote this morning at 7:30 am (5:30 our time). Trust what she tells you as she kind of does this (councils and sells people gear) for a living and she won't set you up with inappropriate gear. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
GentleTiger 0 #37 March 3, 2004 Hi dub, wow, you had some high wing loadings!! I'm planning on staying at .5 - .75 for a good while, at least until I get a better understanding of the science of flaring. once again I find myself leaning toward the spectre, but will probably check out a few canopies at the C/C camp at Deland. BBS Tiger________________________________________ Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #38 March 3, 2004 Hey! Come on! Dont listen anyone ! Trust your instinct. You know it better! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GentleTiger 0 #39 March 3, 2004 Aaaaah, so you've seen my ballet-like butt slide have you?? Your comments are well said, and once again I find myself back to the Spectre...the Triathalon has been mentioned as well...any thoughts on that? Thank you so much for your input, let's try to hook up over the weekend so I know who I'm talking to! BBS Tiger________________________________________ Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GentleTiger 0 #40 March 3, 2004 Hi Cruz Thanx, and ya, I've finally made at least one decision I'll be going with a 7 cell...interestingly enough, the Triathalon was suggested to me yesterday...she said it was just like the spectre, but it has a coating over the ZP to make it easier to pack...any thoughts on that? The outpouring of advice, support and perspectives has been amazing, I've really learned a lot these last few days, and am trying to keep up with all the responses! BBS Tiger________________________________________ Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #41 March 3, 2004 Hey! Slow down! If I were you I wouldnt buy anything yet. Ive just bought my own gear. Ive tried several. Can you say the same? Anyway whats to point to buy something if you are going to sell it in 50 jumps? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GentleTiger 0 #42 March 3, 2004 Hi Dave, Ya, my primary JM suggested that I get a used spectre to save a lot of hassle trying to pack...as of now I'm also looking that the triathalon, any thoughts? I hear it's coated to make it much easier to pack, and it's just like a spectre in every other way. You were lucky to get your colors! BBS Tiger________________________________________ Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GentleTiger 0 #43 March 3, 2004 Hi piis, as of now I'm comparing the spectre vs the triathalon...my wingloading will most likey be in the .75 range, and I figure a heavier w/l on my reserve will still get me down safely, without the bulk of a canopy with a higher w/l...does that make any sense to you? thanx piis, Tiger________________________________________ Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a tiger in the sky!! Throw down some steaks and run for the hills!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DancingFlame 0 #44 March 3, 2004 As I heard, Spectre has better flare than Triathlon and turns a little quicker. Triathlon is good at CRW, Spectre is not that good, well, it seems like you will not go for CRW So you'll made a wise decision if you choose Spectre. Again, you should better try these canopies yourself. Do not listen to some people offering high wing load, trust yourself and your instructors. Parachute is a tool for landing and not for killing. Ah, and add Icarus Safire2 to your list. At W/L ~1.0 this canopy performs very well. It has flatter glide and flares better than the Spectre. The only disadvantage, one cannot find any used canopies on the market Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #45 March 3, 2004 QuoteI'll be going with a 7 cell... Strongly advise you to not make a decision until you've had a chance to jump a number of different canopies. There's no rush. You may spend a bit in gear rental, but you'll be happiest with what you buy in the long run if you take the time to explore everything that is suitable for and available to you. Canopies I would recommend you putting some demo jumps on - Spectre, Triathlon, Sabre2, Safire2, Pilot. Talk to your instructors and the guys you take the canopy course from about what sizes to jump. Don't buy any main until you have already (safely) downsized to the size that your instructors and the canopy control coaches suggest will be best for your next 100 jumps or so. Once you know what size that will be you can go ahead and get your container/reserve/AAD, then continue to demo mains until you are at the size you want or until you decide which one you like best. Again, don't rush deciding which main canopy to buy. That's a lot of money to spend only to decide 10 jumps after you get it that you kinda don't like the way it flares, sinks, glides, the toggle pressure... Especially if you're buying new. Re: Triathlons vs Spectres. The Triathlon is a seven cell, zp main with a rectangular shape. The Spectre is a seven cell zp main with a "tapered" or "slightly elliptical" or "semi-elliptical" shape. This shaping gives the Spectre a bit faster turns than a similarly sized Tri, and also contributes to the Spectre's smooth slow openings. They are both great canopies, and both are very suitable for a novice at a light wingloading. A new Triathlon will be just as hard to pack as a new Spectre will be. Older Tri's were built with a different fabric that was less slippery than what they are made out of now. Any zp canopy with a hundred or so jumps on it is going to be easier to pack than a brand new one will be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #46 March 3, 2004 QuoteAh, and add Icarus Safire2 to your list. At W/L ~1.0 this canopy performs very well. It has flatter glide and flares better than the Spectre. I would personnally not recommend this canopy, and the manufacturer would certainly not recommend it either with the jump experience of the person who started the thread. maybe an Omin form Icarus, which is also a 7 cell, slightly elliptical, and which would certaily be more recommended than a Saphire2. concerning the new wingloadind after Cutaway, the difference in weight would be approx 5lbs ... not much to take into consideration... Oh yeah, add to that the 4 pints of sweat you lose when you cutaway scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #47 March 3, 2004 I had about the same jump numbers as him when I was recomended a safire 1 from Simon no less, back on 2001 when I started jumping. A safire can be flown and safely flown at that wing loading. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #48 March 3, 2004 OK, if you say so... OKOK, they say so too : QuoteWe recommend it for wing loadings from .75 PSF to 1.6 PSF. scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #49 March 3, 2004 Yeah, I gotta agree with skybytch about demoing everything before you choose. It can be hard to do when you don't own a container. You could possibly buy a container and reserve first, and use it to demo canopies. I was really ready to buy a spectre based on everything I read about it. Even after jumping it I was pretty sure it was what I wanted. Then I tried the Sabre2, which I was barely considering because of the higher performance that I didn't want, and changed my mind completely. To demo a canopy, you'll need a container, deployment bag, and pilot chute. You don't need risers. The dbag and pilot chute should come with any container you buy (new or used...buy used!). I'm sure there are places you can demo canopies and containers. Might want to ask at your DZ. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #50 March 3, 2004 QuoteThank you so much for your input, let's try to hook up over the weekend so I know who I'm talking to! You've seen me at the DZ countless times. I just don't really go by my screen name at the DZ because well it's NOT a nickname. Anyway, unless I sneak a jump in Saturday morning, you won't see me on Saturday as I'll be playing in a volleyball tournament. But weather permitting, you'll see me on Sunday. And as for what canopy to buy? I like what Lisa (Skybytch) wrote this morning at 7:30 am (5:30 our time). Trust what she tells you as she kind of does this (councils and sells people gear) for a living and she won't set you up with inappropriate gear. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
