bounce ethics...

[avenfoto 0]

its a strange morning this morning and i had some wierd dreams last nite... this one might be a bit sensitive so please approach with an open mind..

consider this hypothetical situation....

you and a recently aqquainted jumper are at one of his/her objects, not bros, just recently met aquantainces.. you exit first, 350 ft 2 seconds hh, on heading, flare, yee haw.. you look up to watch your newly aqquired friend over-dely and impact the gravel at line stretch

no vitals, and no previous discussion "just in case"..

so... what do you do?
call the cops and ride it out?
do you take thier rig off, then call anonymously?
just bail? (i hope not)

i dunno exactly what would be appropriate, and hope that i never have to know, but was just wondering...

assume that you dont know any personal info sohrt of a name and basics.. dont know family,friends or even thier fone number..

[badenhop 0]

Hello,
Why do you have to ask?
Do you feel you lack good ethics?
Why would you ask this diverse set of lunatics?
Did you think you would get a consistantly straight answer?

Do what is right.
Avery

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[base428 1]

That's a tough and sensitive subject to discuss online or in person. I know many jumpers have attempted to address it with their fellow jumpers (just in case).

Personally, I wouldn't want my friends to hang around and get busted if it were me. Just find a payphone and report it.

(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

[JaapSuter 0]

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no vitals, and no previous discussion "just in case"..

In my opinion, there is no excuse for not discussing this.

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so... what do you do?

call the cops and ride it out?

do you take thier rig off, then call anonymously?

just bail? (i hope not)

I would call 911 for ambulance and police, and then ride it out. That's the nature of the game we play.

However, if (and only if) it was agreed in advance that an everybody-splits pact is in effect, I might consider splitting. Some people are forced to jump this way, because the results of getting legal trouble would be disastrous. That's understandable and if all parties involved agree to play the game this way, I don't necessarily see a problem with it.

I have never done one of those jumps, and if the day comes that I do, I wouldn't be surprised if I said; screw the pact, and stick with my friend.

Another important thing to note is that it is surprisingly hard for laymen to decide whether or not somebody is dead. What if your friend was only unconscious and able to recover if only you had gotten an ambulance there in time? You'd be surprised at how messed up the human body can be and still recover.

There are stories in BASE history about jumpers leaving another half-dead jumper behind. Sometimes they are later rescued by other people. (Let's not bring up specific examples, lest the thread degenerate).

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Assume that you don't know any personal info short of a name and basics. Don't know family, friends or even their phone number.

Why would you jump with this person? It takes two seconds to share each others BASE in-case-of-emergency phone-numbers.

[gus 1]

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Why would you jump with this person? It takes two seconds to share each others BASE in-case-of-emergency phone-numbers.

Not everyone wants to discuss it. I will pretty much always ask new jumping buddies if they want to give me an emergency contact number and the majority don't. I don't see it as particularly important anyway, knowing exactly where you are (so you can direct emergency services) is the important thing.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[NickDG 23]

That is something to be worked out ahead of time. Some people simply can't face arrest, because of priors, a sensitive job, or a spouse that hates BASE. Personally, I would never leave anyone behind be they injured, hung-up, or dead. But, I do understand people that will and have no trouble with it as long as I know beforehand. On larger urban loads where there are several jumpers and a ground crew we always work out who stays and who blows if the worst happens. There's no use in everyone going down.

Especially since after a death the authorities can go on a jihad, and while you know the cause was something tangible like a funky opening and an object strike, the police, park rangers, etc. can and often do start throwing around manslaughter charges and the like.

I know the above sounds cold, and there are always people that will say don't do the crime if you can't do the time, but sometimes the consequences of being caught are so out of touch with the reality of the "crime" it's a necessary precaution.

NickD BASE 194

[nicknitro71 0]

If the dude is really absolutely dead (like an open skull with half of the brain on the ground) then ito me it really does not matter, really. I'd take his rig off, call 911, and leave.

If he is still alive or not dead, then I'd to the impossible to keep him alive, call 911, and wait; if I get arrested fuck it.

The key here is to know if the person is really dead.

I agree with Nick, certain things MUST be discussed ahead of time.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[piisfish 135]

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If the dude is really absolutely dead (like an open skull with half of the brain on the ground) then ito me it really does not matter, really. I'd take his rig off, call 911, and leave..

wouldn't there be a risk of being charged for homicide, destruction/dissimulation of proofs etc ??
Don't know the legal term...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[TVPB 0]

Rule Number 1 - unless you are 111100000% sure the person is deceased, you have absolutely NO RIGHT to leave another human being there without help. Otherwise, you are selfish scum. This is just my opinion of course.

Think of it this way - what would you want people to do if YOU were the injured person?

If the penalty in that particular area is too harsh for you, you have no business being there in the first place. Go to one of the staged events instead. And I certainly do NOT want to be your jump buddy if you would leave me for dead to prevent a $1000 fine and some court time.

r.e. escaping penalties. I think that if "the time" is potentially very serious given that the "supposed crime" is not serious, escaping the harsh penalties is a reasonable thing for a person to do. But do not leave a potential life behind unless you are sure. The cops should be chasing more important things in this world, not some people just having a bit of fun. Alternately, they should not whinge about begin under-resourced if they chase jumpers.

Some points:

- to be better able to assist you in the decision of "dead or alive", get some training. EVERY jumper should be first aid trained AT A MINIMUM. I don't mean the weekend Perrine Br jumpers. I am talking about the independants that jump a variety of sites, especially in remote areas.
- Make sure the family is notified.
- etc.

busy - gotta go

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[vdschoor 0]

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I agree with Nick, certain things MUST be discussed ahead of time.

Same here.. I've done ground crew for several of my friends, and in most cases this was discussed..
The first time I did it, my friend told me to bail if anything happened.. "I don't need to drag you into this, you don't need to get in trouble with me"

If something would have happened though, I dont think I would have bailed. Granted the site was public enough where I "could have seen it happen and checked on him as I was walking by"

I would have a really hard time leaving a friend behind..

[JaapSuter 0]

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"Why would you jump with this person? It takes two seconds to share each others BASE in-case-of-emergency phone-numbers."

Not everyone wants to discuss it. I will pretty much always ask new jumping buddies if they want to give me an emergency contact number and the majority don't. I don't see it as particularly important anyway, knowing exactly where you are (so you can direct emergency services) is the important thing.

Why do you think they don't want to give a number? When I'm about to share a potential life threatening experience with somebody, I don't have a problem with giving a useful contact information.

This might mean the difference between the police getting in touch with my parents and telling them my "parachute didn't open", or a BASE jumper talking to my parents giving the complete story, sharing it with realism and understanding and potentially even a few anecdotes about the amazing adventures and life we've had, right up until my very last jump.

I don't think one can underestimate the difference a messenger can make in such a situation.

[avenfoto 0]

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no vitals,

as in definatley dead... no two ways about it...

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do you take thier rig off,

this was the biggest thing i was wondering...
do you remove the rig and take it w/you so as not to associate base w/ thier passing
.....or.......
do you leave the rig so it IS associated w/base and "friend" isnt considered a suicide...

certainley a dilemma..

(and i would never leave someone behind unless they are for sure, 100 percent deceased...
period....)

[gus 1]

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Why do you think they don't want to give a number?

I've never pressed the point with anyone so I don't know. But I would guess that for a lot of people it's a knee-jerk "I'm not going to go in so I'm not going to discuss it" type thing.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[avenfoto 0]

...

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Hello,
Why do you have to ask?
.......
Do what is right.

well said...respect

[NickDG 23]

>>I "could have seen it happen and checked on him as I was walking by<<

We've briefed this course of action, but if me, and I heard a policeman laugh or say something disparaging over a brother or sister lying there dead, I'd surly blow it by saying something . . .

TVPB,
Good points, but remember it's something you have pre-agreed to, and yes, it's sad it has to be that way, but it just is . . . The dynamic of this argument is changing as more legal sites become available, but there really is a "dark" side to BASE jumping and this may well be it.

Back in the day when I didn't jump with anyone I didn't know really well (at least most of the time) this wasn't much of an issue. I'd never leave a friend. Today, people call me on the phone wanting a building jump and I've never met them before. In that case I will do all I can to help them, but "they" called me. Do I still have to take the chance I wind up in all kinds of legal troubles for what is essentially a stranger?

Ok, I'm sure I wouldn't leave even a stranger behind, as just the fact he BASE jumps makes him my brother, but just for the sake of argument BASE is a sport for big boys and girls, and in some cases it's still aerial bank robbery. Some crews will stand and fight if confronted, while other crews know it's every one for themselves. Look what happened to "Dead" Steve when the Air Force banished him to Saudi Arabia after he was caught BASE jumping. Look at what happened to Keith Jones after Susan's El Cap fatality. Look at what happened to Chuck Sweeny who almost went down in history as a potential Presidential assassin. When a fatality is involved you can be charged with manslaughter but never convicted and it can still follow you around for the rest of your life . . . If somehow you got involved in something like that you'd have serious problems the next time you met a pretty babe in a bar and she spends $50 on background checking you . . .

NickD BASE 194

[JaapSuter 0]

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...a knee-jerk "I'm not going to go in so I'm not going to discuss it." type thing.

Call me a snob, but I'm not sure if I'm comfortable jumping with those people. What can a comment like that imply about the rest of their approach to BASE?

Oh well...

[mikey348 0]

I recently made a jump and used some buddies (non jumpers) for ground crew. I advised them of the possiblities and what to do in case of emergency. However, I don't believe they were ready emotionally for what could have happened. As it turned out I had a cliff strike. No serious injuries, but the sight and sound of me hitting the wall and the scream of pain, freaked them out. Later they told me they were not cut out for this and I also learned that I should not put them or anyone through that unless they completely understand the possible consequenses. I believe they were more shaken than I was.

"Admit nothing, deny everything, and demand proof"

[JaapSuter 0]

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I recently made a jump and used some buddies (non jumpers) for ground crew. I advised them of the possiblities and what to do in case of emergency. However, I don't believe they were ready emotionally for what could have happened.

You bring up an excellent point! I asked all the people that have ever groundcrewed for me to have a look at the BASE fatality list. This summer, climbers have taken me to several remote bigwalls to check their jumpability. Each time I made sure they were aware of the risks of BASE. It may not be likely, but the last thing you want is permanently traumatize somebody, or have a situation where everybody panics.

In fact, some of my closest friends would love to groundcrew. Yet, I'm not letting them because they can't convince me they can confidently handle a bad situation.

[NickDG 23]

>>"Admit nothing, deny everything, and demand proof"<<

I always heard that one as, "Admit nothing, deny everything, and make counter accusations . . ."

Still sounds good, though . . .

NickD BASE 194

[RhondaLea 3]

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no vitals

I call your attention to a skydiving incident that occurred at Quincy in 1997. Dead Mike was most assuredly dead when the ambulance left, driving slowly without sirens or lights.

When he came back to life the lights and sirens came on.

Except in the case of decapitation, you just can't know for sure, so the first thing you do is call for help, and then you do what you can until help arrives.

Most issues are not black and white; this is one of the few that is.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[SBCmac 0]

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I've never pressed the point with anyone so I don't know. But I would guess that for a lot of people it's a knee-jerk "I'm not going to go in so I'm not going to discuss it" type thing.

I see where you are coming from if you doing your exit count and your acquaintance/friend asked you for your “Next of Kin” contact info… But if you are not 3 seconds from exiting, I agree with everyone else, there is no reason not to discuss these scenarios/preferences. If someone can’t discuss these topics, then they have no business BASE jumping.

I personally will not jump with someone that is simply an acquaintance to me, especially high profile and technical jumps. I have personally been in two contrasting situations when shit hits the fan. The first situation being that everyone overcomes the challenge smoothly. The second situation with me cursing all the way to turn myself in because the rest of the crew was arrested and my car was in seized by the cops. The whole reason the first situation went so well is because we discussed every aspect of the jump prior to ever standing at exit point.

I have also been unlucky enough to witness a close friend die on a BASE jump. Because I don’t jump with just acquaintances and that we do discuss every aspect of what were doing and what were getting into, I will never have to guess if my friend’s death was a waste or not…

So long story short… I will never be in a situation of leaving someone behind that is hurt, dead or alive, because I will never jump with someone that cannot discuss BASE or cannot accept the consequences of every jump that they do.

BATMAN - (A.K.A. SBCmac ...)

[dmcoco84 4]

I’m gonna have to agree with Jaap and Nick on this one. I would definitely stay with my fellow jumper and ride it out. If it were a close friend or even someone new, it would never cross my mind to up and leave them behind regardless of degree of injury. Even if they wanted me to avoid the legal trouble in a pre base discussion, it would make me feel terrible to just leave them behind. I’ve formed some pretty close bonds in skydiving and one in particular even more so though our starting BASE together. I look at our community as an extended family so how could I leave a family member behind.

If it were someone I was not very familiar with, I would think it would be common sense to have a pre jump discussion on contact info for just in case times and experience level. I got some jumps with two experience jumpers a few months ago and one thing they did was to have my “just in case” number be the last one I dial on my cell so they could easily get in touch with someone if something went bad by just hitting redial.

Now here is an addition that might at least alleviate some legal trouble for someone that stays behind. If possible I would at least try and get my gear in the car, given to someone that leaves (if in big group) or stashed somewhere and say I was just a bystander or watching the jump. If a jumper needed CPR or something obviously I would say screw it and attend to their needs but if possible I would do that.

[outrager 6]

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If the dude is really absolutely dead (like an open skull with half of the brain on the ground) then ito me it really does not matter, really. I'd take his rig off, call 911, and leave.

I have no problem with leaving a confirmed dead body and alerting authorities via a pay phone. This is frequently a standard agreed-on in advance protocol. However, removing the rig is a very bad idea - it probably will bring a criminal charge by itself. A bounce will be treated as a crime scene, you do not want to touch anything.

And of course, never leave if the death is not absolutely, positively confirmed.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[HydroGuy 0]

From a legal standpoint, if you are going to stay behind with a fallen jumper, you would be better off not to make a false statement to authorites. If you blatently lie in a report about a serious injury or fatality, you are probably likely to get in more trouble than they could ever have truely pinned on you from the original incident.

You should(I would) tell the authorities the fallen jumpers name and specifics, but tell them you(I) will make no statement about the incident without your(my) attorney present. Then you(I) can exercise your 5th Amm. right against self incrimination during your (my)statement.

Editted out the I's since I've yet to BASE...

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[nicknitro71 0]

Point well taken, Yuri.

However if they find out who the deceased was jumping with, rig or no rig is going to get messy.

My thought was that if the rig is not there, then they might cut it short and assume suicide instead of launching an investigation that might lead to nearby DZs and the opening of many cans of worms...Not a easy call indeed...

Memento Audere Semper

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