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jimmyh

16 Year Old Deathcamper

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Hey read the story about the climber's parents suing over rock fall. This will not be good WHEN she breaks something which I'd bet on even considering Karma. Sux to say aloud but oh well.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

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Claire *and directed to Claire ONLY*,

If anything please listen with open ears. Just as Brits17 posted, I too am 23 years old, not that much older than you. I remember what it is like to be 16; you have a tendancy to put trust in those older than you and feel they will not put you in harms way, you are a bit nieve, and are wanting to be considered an adult. Let me tell you girl, this is not the way to do it. Jimmy cannot be telling you exactly how dangerous this sport is and how at risk YOUR life is at this moment. At 16, we already see ourselves as adults. I remember! When you turn 18, you will look back at being 16 and think "oh goodness, if I had only known that back then". TRUST ME...then..when you are 21, you will look back at when you were 18 and think the exact same thing. Now, at 23..I'm sure when I turn 28 I'll look back at my life now and think "oh goodness..I had no clue about anything!" Life is about growing and learning. Don't cut yourself short.

I as well WANT to BASE jump, although I know it is not my time. I am not prepared enough physically nor mentally in order to take on what the world of BASE throws at you. You are 16 years old. Have you ever seen someone die at terminal speed from a no-pull? I have. Let me tell you, it is not pretty. It will scar you for life. Even if you are not BASE jumping, just being around it...anyone with a conscience will tell you that the things you will just SEE in this sport are enough to make you numb. Enjoy your youth. There will always be fixed object jumping...why rush it? Don't you want to be fully prepared so that you can enjoy it for a longer period of time?

I had about 1 1/2 years in skydiving and around 160 skydives when I made my 1st BASE jump. Within a week, I made another BASE jump. My mentors had told me I would be fine...but you cannot fully put your trust into anyone when it comes to your life. I got lucky and everything went perfect. No problems at all. But then the reality sets in. Do you really realize what you are doing? Have you really taken into consideratin that 95% of BASE jumpers will DIE or spend a day or two in the hospital? It's all fun and games until something goes wrong. I realized I had a lot more preparing to do myself before I stepped foot on another tower or bridge. This was MY decision. Not my mentors. There is no reason to rush life, Claire. None at all. Enjoy your youth, as I am mine. In the 6 months I have involved myself around this sport, I have seen more than I ever imagined.

You have so much left to experience...these types of adventures will always be there for you to come back to. As I previously stated..I understand your desire...I feel it too! It's just you really need to take a step back and look at the whole picture. There are better ways to go about this.

Good luck,
Amanda

*Edited to add: Consider yourself lucky that you have been given a taste of what this sport has to offer, just as I have. And work towards it in the appropriate manner. Seriously. Please just listen. The others on this board are not attacking you, they are just conscerned for your safety.

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Anyone know where this girls lives so the proper authorities can be notified?
And yes, I would not think for a second about calling the cops on Jimmy and asking them to look into this.
.....
If anyone has this information and would like to help me I will make the call to the family and the authority.



Tree,
I don't agree with what Jimmy is doing here, but if you haven't thought about the further-reaching consequences of calling the authorities, I think you should.

First, a quick note--I'm sure this will come up: a short-reaching consequence of doing nothing on your part could mean that Clair continues on this path and gets injured or dies. That could be the cost of doing nothing, and it's not an attractive option to wait for. I'll agree with that point as a possibility, up front.

But notifying the authorities? This opens quite an interesting juxtaposition. Isn't "I don't need you to protect me from myself" just the sort of thing we say to a society that doesn't understand what we do, yet you're willing to do just that because of this situation? Yes, she is a minor. And no, I don't believe her to be truly capable of understanding what she's gotten herself into. She may look "dialed-in" and be able to "stick it", but how about the emotional aspects of losing a friend to BASE? How will she react on-scene when an accident occurs?

But these are our opinions of a girl we haven't met, whose parents we haven't talked to and those are the people legally/socially/morally tasked with taking care of her. We know nothing of her upbringing or family situation other than what we can choose (or not choose) to assume from the facts. Calling the authorities could get child protective services involved. Really want to stir shit up like that for a family you don't know? If you want to talk to someone, if you fear her parents really don't know what they've allowed their little girl to get into, talk to them. Inform them of the risks and consequences of BASE and let them do the parenting.

While we're on the subject of 'family', there's another one you could impact here, and quite drastically. If you call the authorities, they're going to start asking questions: "What objects?" "Where?" Are you prepared to give that information? You could jeopardize the lifestyles of a lot of other locals to that area, as well. I think it's pretty clear you won't change Jimmy's mind, so if that's to happen, why don't you allow the locals to attempt to get him to stop if they see fit. And yes...the cost of doing nothing could mean Clair's death. Or she could make a few jumps, remain uninjured, and really begin to "get it" and understand just what she's gotten herself into. There's all kinds of "what if's", but involving the authorities is something for her parents to do.

For what it's worth, I understand what you're trying to do, but I think you're going about it the wrong way.

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Ethics in base and amongst jumpers are reserved for those who follow them, and those who respect the sport and others in the sport.



Agreed, but I still think there's a point where you might go too far.

Cya,
-C.

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Have you really taken into consideratin that 95% of BASE jumpers will DIE or spend a day or two in the hospital?



I know Amanda. Brit and I put her off on her first jump and I will personally attest to her being dialed in and I also personally think she is perfectly capable of being a heads-up jumper. So what she's saying is particularly meaningful.

Clair... PLEASE read all of the incidents listed here. These were real people, many of whom were very skilled BASE jumpers. All of them are now dead.

BASE jumpers are, by their very nature, independent and don't like being told what to do. So those of us expressing concern here aren't paternalistic busybodies trying to tell you how to live your life. These (myself include) are very independent spirits who are also very concerned about their sport and their brothers and sisters within the sport.

No one is saying "don't BASE jump". What people are saying is that this is not fun and games. This is a very serious sport. The consequences are very real and very severe. There is no such thing as a safe BASE jump. If you want to survive in this sport for any period of time you need to understand that fact and be armed with the skills to minimize that risk.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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This is hands down the safest place for a non-jumper to learn to be a jumper.



Objections, your honor!
An "A" can NEVER be the safest object to jump (whether learning or not).

Reason: c.p. (=under equal conditions: grassy, big LZ; no wind; same height) a Bridge will always be better because in case of a 180 (or something close to it) you will NOT have a solid object right in your face. Adam has recently made a strong case for this in his post about not throwing students off big walls, even overhanging ones. If I remembered where I read that I'd post the link...

flummi


flummi
* Respekt - ist uns're Aufgabe (fanta4) *

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Nitpicking people's grammar and spelling is silly


Tom i have copyed that string im gonna use it againt anyone in the future against people like me...:ph34r::D

As most people in here i do agree that a person of the age of 16 years whith no skydive experience is a bad idea when it comes to BASE...

genneral i dont like the idea of people whith out skydive experience starts to BASE,but must say that i preffere a person 10ish years older whith no experience more than a 16 year old.

Clair,understand this is not about picking on you,rather than on Jimmy.
If you stay in the sports play safe and prove the rest of us wrong,if not you have failed your mission...

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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While we're on the subject of 'family', there's another one you could impact here, and quite drastically. If you call the authorities, they're going to start asking questions: "What objects?" "Where?" Are you prepared to give that information? You could jeopardize the lifestyles of a lot of other locals to that area, as well.



I've got to comment on this. IF what Jimmy is doing is illegal and unethical (notice the big IF before you jump all over me) he's the one who is jeapardizing the lifestyles of the other local base jumpers in the area, not Tree (who by the way seems to be barred from discussing this topic any further in any forum) or anyone else who chooses to notify the authorities in the best interest of the CHILD involved.

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Hey 460,
yes I believe pca'ing people into water with rounds is very safe. That's more like bungee jumping though. A quick thrill ride that leaves the jumper with no tangible BASE experience.

I'm not just throwing meat off objects. The idea is to teach someone how to base jump without skydiving experience. That includes exit, opening, and landing procedures.

And where I'm doing it, is the safest place possible.

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The idea is to teach someone how to base jump without skydiving experience. That includes exit, opening, and landing procedures.



What about object avoidance? Braked turns, stall turns? Kicking out line twists? What about tracking?

You'll never convince me that you can safely learn these skills outside of the skydiving environment.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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What about object avoidance? Braked turns, stall turns? Kicking out line twists? What about tracking?

You'll never convince me that you can safely learn these skills outside of the skydiving environment.



In terms of object avoidance and canopy turns, I'd say you can do a lot of learning on those off a span over water, just splashing down at the end of the canopy ride. In fact, I've seen lots of people who were experienced jumpers and still learned a lot practicing those skills in that way.

As to line twists and tracking, I have not found a better way to develop those skills than skydiving. I've still got my fingers crossed for an angled wingsuit/tracking tunnel, though.

Jimmy, not meant as an attack or accusation, can you share some details of how you teach these skills off an object? I'm assuming that your "I just showed here the seatbelt video" was a joke (or if not, please correct me).
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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All she has to do is unstow the breaks turn and land.



You should have seen how fast one of my jump partners was traveling when he had line twists off that same tower. All he had to do was unstow the brakes turn and land. That pesky twist made it a tad more difficult to do quickly.

And no it's not the safest. As far as good objects, it's definately up there. What about the bushes to the left, with the wires on the other side? I've landed there. If there's no wind, is she going to stand down? I've had 180's there, and you've landed on the tower so it's hittable.

Just pointing out the obvious.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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I had major line twists flailing an aerial there several years ago. I landed under the twists, but managed to get above them and steer into the wind before doing so. My jumping partner was out in the field looking for me by the time I got my gear picked up, though (he had watched from exit, and it was very dark, so he didn't see me turn and land, and thought I had been seriously injured downwinding in 25 mph winds).

Jimmy, I'm assuming that you're only puttin her off that thing with strong tailwinds?

Hookitt, the prevailing wind direction (assuming strong wind in the normal direction) pushes you away from the wires and bushes, doesn't it? With average wind you could probably still hit them, but I think you'd have to be trying to do it.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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IF what Jimmy is doing is illegal and unethical (notice the big IF before you jump all over me) he's the one who is jeapardizing the lifestyles of the other local base jumpers in the area, not Tree (who by the way seems to be barred from discussing this topic any further in any forum) or anyone else who chooses to notify the authorities in the best interest of the CHILD involved.



Won't jump all over you about this... And yes, I agree with you to a point.

He is, and in such, I imagine there's probably been some discussion with him and other local jumpers. Just because it's not on DZ.com doesn't mean it's not happening off the internet.

On the other hand, maybe there's been no talk. Who's to say? But if it comes down to local access, don't you think it's a local issue? Who am I, you or Tree to intervene if we don't have all the facts and it's not our backyard? [Note: My point is about the heat of objects, not the well-being or preparedness of Clair. That's another subject enough other people are discussing, to which I have little to add that hasn't already been said.]

-C.

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In terms of object avoidance and canopy turns, I'd say you can do a lot of learning on those off a span over water, just splashing down at the end of the canopy ride. In fact, I've seen lots of people who were experienced jumpers and still learned a lot practicing those skills in that way.



Fair enough. The problem with doing it that way is that you don't have enough air time to try it repeatedly and get it dialed in the way you can on a skydive.

For practice for an experienced skydiver/BASE jumper, sure. But I wouldn't recommend relying on that methodology 100% as a learning tool.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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Hookitt, the prevailing wind direction (assuming strong wind in the normal direction) pushes you away from the wires and bushes, doesn't it? With average wind you could probably still hit them, but I think you'd have to be trying to do it.



Yes that is true.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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hey Tom,seppo...there's been a lot worse in here than me pulling her up about that...as it happens i was highlighting a shortfall in her grammar as a sign of her immaturity...harmless fun...if you look elsewhere in the thread someone else does exactly the same...it is ironic....and sarcastic...something we English live and thrive on...hardly grounds for a public rebuke...anyway...i wish her luck...a lot of it...Karma will take care of Jimmy if she dies...but as he says hes prepared to live with that...I must be such a boring,staid run of the mill human beiing because i couldnt live with it...not one iota.
http://www.extreme-on-demand.com

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Whether my example was 100% factual or not is not the point



Then why did you choose to use it if it is not factual or your point?

The only question about age here is the legal ramifications of involving a minor in this activity and Jimmy's involvement with her besides the BASE jumping aspect. Both of which have laws pertaining to them. Laws in some instances are based on ethics, values and beliefs, it is what this(the US) country is founded on, you cannot arbitrarily disassociate them.


From your earlier post:
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If my parents had known what was going on, they probably would have worried...




You've admitted based on your own experience that even at 18, you were unaware and unsuspecting of the situation you were in at the time. This girl is even younger and her parents very well may not be aware of the situation as it pertains to BASE jumping and her involvement with Jimmy. In either case, BOTH situations are highly ethicaly questionable.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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So the day before I took her, I sat down with Will, our static line instructor at the DZ, and asked him how he teaches people to fly and land canopies. Let it be noted that, good or bad, we don't use radios on students out here.

Will's response was smile, shrug his shoulders a bit, and say, "you tell 'em it's like driving a car. Right turn, left turn stop." He's trained hundreds of students over 10 years. I asked how to explain about the timing of a flair...not too high, not too low.

He said, "tell them to begin an even semmetrycal flair at about fifteen feet. They almost always get it wrong in the beginning."

i.e. you can only learn something by doing it, and whether you're teaching BASE or Skydiving, the student's ability to follow intructions and do what you say to do when you say to do it is always up to them.

We'll see how Clair handles line-twists when she gets them. I told her what I'd do.

I think BASE instructors who tell their students to have 75-250 skydives are getting off easy cuz their students have already made all the first parachute landing "my ankle hurts" mistakes.

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Clair,

a gal I know is 14 years old - she breaks horses, rides, drinks, smokes, and for most purposes is an adult. No she doesn't much listen to anyone either. :o:D:D And she has more balls, is more capable and more competent than most people will ever be. Yep, she's special. Please read through the fatality list recommended to you, not in a morbid way, but so that you might not repeat previously made mistakes. It'd suck for you to get permanently hurt from a DOH! thing which you might have easily avoided if you just knew about it.

Cheers
(my name here is not related to BASE)

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

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You cited some good reasons NOT to notify the authorities unless you knew the people directly involved. Good intentions can have bad results, I agree with that. But making base jumping more difficult for others in the area is not a valid reason IMO. Sadly, one bad apple CAN spoil the whole bunch (or at least spoil things for the "good apples") and that's a fact of life. Place the blame where it belongs- on the bad apple! That was my only point. I don't know Tree, I don't know Jimmy, I don't know the 16 year old child involved or her parents but it does seem more like a family issue at this point.

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jimmy gave me the instructions that he could and made sure that i knew them. When you are doing something like BASE and there are severe injuries that can occure you tend to listen more.

after repeating everything jimmy told in my head me about a million times on the way up to the tower i jumped. because i went over what i was suposed to do in my head so many times it was like second nature when the time came to do them. before i knew it the canopy was open and my hands were in the "yonkles" and i had turned. it all went great and i stood up the landing.

jimmy did a great job and i look forward to making more jumps with him.


clair nicholas

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Place the blame where it belongs- on the bad apple!



Placing blame's not my point. You can discuss consequences of actions without placing blame.

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I don't know Tree, I don't know Jimmy



Nor do I, but I've decided that it's pointless for me to expect to change Jimmy or Clair's minds in this. Countless others have tried/are trying and I don't have anything else compelling or magical that might influence them and I can't expect volume to have an effect, either.
Tree, on the other hand, I think does mean well and I'm just pointing out some differences that I have with his approach.

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it does seem more like a family issue at this point



On that it seems we agree.

-C.

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