Should Ken Swyers be on the List . . . ?

[meekerboy 0]

With much respect to Ken's family, I also vote no.

It was a close call to being on the list, because he pulled his reserve as he was sliding down. However, his death was associated with the exiting from an airplane and not completing a landing on the top of the arch.

However, he definately deserves to be on the list outside of the sport in the same light as my friend Neil Queminet.

Meeker

[eb66to77 0]

I think he should go on the bottom list. He died trying his best to BASE jump although he never completed one. I had a crazy buddy that did a "Reserve BASE" jump. It's still a BASE jump even if he slipped on exit or fell off while getting out to the exit. Do you need to die starting on your second BASE jump to be considered for the lists. If falling off a fixed object with the intention of doing a BASE jump isn't a BASE jump then we need to start defining things again. Bottom line is he died in pursuit of a BASE jump. He should be recognized on the list. Plus it shows another link to USPA supporting BASE before the bandwagon had wheels.

[Treejumps 0]

No, not a base jump. A good idea, but he never evenm stood at the exit point. If he died in an elevator crash on the way up, that would not qualify either.

Still, a cool idea. RIP

[TomAiello 25]

Another thought:

I think he ought to be on the list (probably the bottom section) somewhere as a cautionary tale. I know of at least 3 other loads done in a similar fashion (skydive to the top, then repack and jump the object). Having his story somewhere on the list acts as a good heads up to people planning such a load, so that they have a better idea of potential dangers.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[leroydb 0]

Quote

elevator crash on the way up

you mean crash on the way DOWN?

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[NickDG 23]

Okay, so far, including one PM, it's six for and nine against.

Good point about the cautionary nature of Ken's story, Tom. After all, that a big part of what the List is all about . . .

NickD BASE 194

[BASE813 0]

Quote

However, he definately deserves to be on the list outside of the sport in the same light as my friend Neil Queminet.

i dont agree

[tfelber 0]

I would have to say NOT. The people on the bottom part of the list are BASE jumpers who died doing something othr than. The people on the first part of the list died BASE jumping.

Ken died trying to achieve an exit point and had never BASE jumped previously... If you put him in the top part then Neil should be in the top part. The bottom portion seems to be in rememberance of BASE jumpers, not things to avoid while riding a MC or flying an airplane.

[RayLosli 11]

.
. No
.

[base587 0]

With all due respect to his family and his memory...

No

[NickDG 23]

Six for, thirteen against . . .

NickD BASE 194

[RayLosli 11]

He was not a BASE jumper yet.

If a for example a Formula-One Driver was on the line to start
then the Flag goes down to start and then his Engine Blows.
He never finished one Lap..... but he still gets a ..
DNF... (did not finish)... because he was a Driver.

You Must be a.. BASE Jumper ..to get a ...DNF.
.

[HydroGuy 0]

No to the top list. Never attempted, was preparing. Possibly yes to the bottom list, if it clearly states, "Perished while PREPARING for his first BASE." or something to that effect.

While I am an outsider to this, I kind of feel that those on the list would welcome him, being his intentions and all.

[NickDG 23]

>>While I am an outsider to this, I kind of feel that those on the list would welcome him, being his intentions and all.<<

The fellow I buy beer from is an outsider. Your opinion counts, Brother, and maybe even more than most as there isn't a lot of baggage attached . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Zenister 0]

having been through St L. quite often i'm always in awe of the arch... thanks for the info.. something else to remember next time i pass by...but i second Tom's suggestion... definitely worth remembering, but his actual fatality had very little to do with BASE..

my vote No.

would you include him if he were simply planning to land on and slide down? does someone who dies on a climb up to a BASE exit count? how about a car wreck in route to an A?

just my .02..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[NickDG 23]

>>I would have to say NOT. The people on the bottom part of the list are BASE jumpers who died doing something other than. The people on the first part of the list died BASE jumping. Ken died trying to achieve an exit point and had never BASE jumped previously... If you put him in the top part then Neil should be in the top part. The bottom portion seems to be in rememberance of BASE jumpers, not things to avoid while riding a MC or flying an airplane. <<

Gee, that pretty well nails it . . .

NickD BASE 194

[NickDG 23]

However, the below is also a good point . . .

>>Do you need to die starting on your second BASE jump to be considered for the lists.<<

NickD BASE 194

[Binnion 0]

Nick,

The last sentence on your webpage...

"The BASE Fatality List is then up-dated and re-published mainly so newer jumpers wouldn't keep making the same mistakes over and over."

Nick Di Giovanni
BASE 194

This is easily something that can and probably will happen again (IMO = skydive fatality to a BASE jump) so it should be somewhere. Where is not nearly as important as it being somewhere where jumpers will see it. As a skydiver interested in BASE, I’ve visited the site several times to remind myself of the risks involved in what you guys do. Thanks for keeping up the site.

AB

Cheer up, the worst is yet to come.

[fenceline 0]

Disclaimer : I too am not a base jumper, just on the other side of the fence wanting in. I review the list frequently as I ponder the cost and contemplate the rewards.

As I read the story, it does have a lesson. But I feel it is similiar to the lesson learned from those who slip on the way to the exit on any mountain or antanae with rig in stash bag. This seems, with all respect to those who were close to him, as a hopeful base jumper who made a mistake on the way to his first base jump exit point. Not during the commission of his first jump.

However, while he was not a base jumper, he might be one of those individuals who at least pioneered the idea. Maybe that should earn him a place on the "other portion."

I reserve my vote as I believe that should be a BASE jumpers perogative. Just my humble opinion.

J
(edited to add "other portion sentence"

[airtwardo 6]

Nick~

Wow...talk about a cold fucking chill!

I knew Ken and Millie, and the other people not named but in the story.

I worked as an Instructor at Archway at the time.

What I remember:

Ken did use to speak with discust about the stunts jumpers were doing to get on"Real Incredible Stupid People" as he called it.
He said if he ever did anything note worthy he would film it but for personal use not for commerical sale...
I don't know if I believed him then, or now. He was a quiet guy that didn't give away what he was thinking easily. His best friend didn't know about the jump or he would have shot him in the leg to prevent it.

We kind of knew something was up because in the weeks prior to the jump Ken had done some intentional cutaways, timing the distance it took his reserve to open.

On the morning it happened, I was opening the hangar doors when the airport manager came running over demanding to know who had just been flying the jump plane. I told him no one had as we were just getting going for the day. "That's BULLSHIT, you know it and I know it" he yelled at me and stomped over to feel the engines on both 182's. "These airplanes are grounded and nobody leaves until you hear from me."
About 2 minutes later the phone rang and we knew.

Now to clairfy a point, if it makes any difference in your final decision to add Ken.

The 'skydiver' that witnessed it...

was a young woman going through the static line
progression. She'd made three S/L jumps prior to that day, but had come to the DZ a dozen times shot down because of wind holds.
I was her Instructor...and was "seeing" her as well.

Mid day we were going about the DZ business, having put the airport managers concers to rest.
The lady in question showed up some what upset and wanting to talk. I took her away from the airport to get lunch, and to avoid the reporters hanging around. What she told me she saw from her balcony
across the street from the Arch was that Ken had set up into the wind flying North to South. He may have flared a bit high because she said he seemed to just hang there a second or two before touching down at about the 11 Oclock position or just short of it on the North leg. He landed kind of on all fours and scampered forward another 10-15 feet at which time he was standing upright. He then reached back and grabbed his lines in one hand...and as we all do gave the canopy a quick shake to get it straight.
It was then the wind caught the canopy and partially inflated it pulling him off his feet and begining the slide. She said he was fighting to get to the side but in her words..."He was clawing away but it just kept getting wider" She didn't think he'd pulled his reserve until well into the slide when it became apparent he couldn't get over the edge.

She tried to make a jump that day...I was holding the static line. She emotionally lost it on the step and that's the only time I ever pulled a student back it.

Another point...
the Arch isn't 17 feet across, it's 33.
Where the 17 feet number comes from is that's
1/2 the distance across. Before this happened, we all would talk about how it could be done during safety meetings. We figured a good accuri jumper could set up...East to West as mentioned in the article, shooting for the rotating light at top dead center. If you were short you could butt slide into the light and do a carrier trap..if you were long you only had 17 feet (or less) to run to the edge and stay with the main.

From what I understand that was actually Kens plan.
But aborted at least one..possibly two attempts because to do that a West to East wind is needed,
We'd heard that the wind rolling off the appartments
across from the Arch made that approach difficult.

That day...the wind was on line for a length wise attempt.



Okay...on a personal note:

I've jumped at the Arch several times doing Demos.
Flew through it even, when there is any wind at all around that thing..it's a rodeo! I can only imagine what the vortices were like for Kenny that day.

Nick we've known each other for 20+ years and though I have a few fixed object jumps I'm no BASE jumper. But in my humble opnion Ken should be included on the list because the bottom line is he died from injuries of impact, sustained during an attempted BASE jump.

Yes he used an aircraft to get there...
like Angel Falls.

Yes his main canopy was still attached...
In fact that was one of the options we discussed
during the safety meetings, land..lay it out nose up...and run off. Kind of a 80's BASE version of solo direct bag deployment.
Not what he intended perhaps but still...

From the way it was told to me by the only person that saw the whole thing begining to end...
For those few moments before the wind caught his main, Kenny Swyers was indeed

"The First man to STAND ALONE on the top of the Gate Way Arch"

(Danny Cunningham wrote that on the wall the night of the furenal)

The attached PIC is of the patch mentioned in the article...
My FIRST day working at the DZ...Ken went up in the AC to watch me put out a student...to give me the "NOD"
Once the student was launched, I said to Ken~ "How about a buck on the disk?"
We jumped..I won...he gave me this patch instead of a buck..."Here, let Verner pay ya!" he said.




In closing Nick~
The FIRST line of your inital post reads:

>In November of 1980 Ken Sawyers died attempting a BASE jump from the St. Louis Gateway Arch<

So is there really any question?
That's who is on the list...those who died attempting a BASE jump!


~Jim

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[GaryP 0]

Looking for a moment at the BASE portion of this jump - it doesn't really fit in with what I'd consider "modern" BASE jumping to be. Whilst "The List" isn't really to be used as a useful statistic there's many ppl, especially the media, that use it in this way. Having this jump (stunt) on the top part of the list would only increase the number and make the "statistic" less pertainent to modern BASE and the type of jumping that most ppl on the list were undertaking when they died.

In other words - it'd make the list less valuable as a reflection of modern BASE jumping statistics.

So I vote NO.

g.

"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"

.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

But I feel it is similiar to the lesson learned from those who slip on the way to the exit on any mountain or antanae with rig in stash bag.

***

I disagree...
This 'planned' BASE jump didn't have a stash bag.
He was standing alone 630 feet atop a man made object...he had a working parachute harness on,
The 'object strike' being the north leg caused his parachute not to deploy.

Like I said...it's up to you Nick...but for my .02
If you're standing on a structure like the Arch...with a parachute on your back...you ain't waiting for a bus!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[fenceline 0]

"He was standing alone 630 feet atop a man made object...he had a working parachute harness on"

If he still had the main attatched, was he in a position to jump? I know its nit picking and I do agree with your point. He did, if momentarily, stand at the exit point with every intention of jumping. Wind had other plans.

Again, not my forum. Just interested in the debate. I do believe the lesson and the attempt need recognition.

J

[littlestranger 0]

Reading this thread I found many valid arguments supporting both sides of the issue. The fact that he exited an airplane pretty much convinced me that this was a skydive...then I started thinking about Ken Swyers intentions.

One of the definitions of intent is the state of ones mind at the time one carries out an action.

Since it was Ken's intent to BASE off the Arch, I would say it was indeed a BASE jump, albeit a failed one and should be included.

You know we joke that the most dangerous part of the skydive is the ride to altitude; perhaps the same can be said about accessing the exit point on a BASE jump. Just something else for me to think about.

[NickDG 23]

Wow Jimbo,

Sitting here thinking where I could get more on this episode, and their you are right under my nose . . .

How's this idea?

I'll create a third section on the List for Ken and Robert Overacker. (In 1995 Robert rode over Horseshoe Falls on a jet ski. He attempted to deploy a rocket propelled parachute, but something went wrong.) Is that acceptable to everyone that thinks I shouldn't put them on the List at all?

We could call it . . . what?

NickD BASE 194