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birdynamnam

Cypres AAD for Wingsuit

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mathrick

Because they already provide no information on existing AADs, and everything posted by Airtec so far suggests they have every intention of continuing that. Starting with "so is it ready or not?".



I tried to understand your arguments but to be honest, I had a hard time doing this... What are the informations you are missing from Airtec? I am quite sure you should be able to find it through the mighty friend Google, or wait, maybe it's to industrial for you, then you may have luck through yahoo or bing or whatever...

do you know every little Detail about your Airbags in your car? Or every little Detail about your helmet for motorcycles?

but to be fair, I would like to hear the missing informations you have about cypres! Maybe I can help you find them or maybe I can't and I could reconsider my cypres unit.


By the way, neither Apple nor Samsung tell every technical Detail as soon as they announce a new phone and how it works...

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By the way, neither Apple nor Samsung tell every technical Detail as soon as they announce a new phone and how it works...



True, but in this sport we expect more. AADs are not mass produced consumer items updated every year. They are sold to a small and fanatically dedicated group of people who depend on them. Airtec can hold their secrets tightly if they want to, but it is not good for their reputation or their business.

Thankfully they have competition, which is good for us all. Including Airtec.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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okay, different question: do you know everything about your audible device? your Altimeter?

and with the other AADs, are there any Wingsuit reliable AADs planned or announcend of Virgil? or other companies? I haven't heard of anything yet but if they did please update me :)

I am happy that they are working on a wingsuit cypres, it's a good step forward!

I think it's the wrong thing to talk bad about the product which isn't available yet and no one forces anyone to buy it.

So if you (not just you but everyone who reads this) says it's trash or not worth buying because you don't know anything yet, please just wait until it is released...

and back to the Argument, that Airtec is keeping the secrets tightly:
Just tell me what questions you have and I will look it up. If you can find anything that's not on the Internet (worth searching for ;-) ) than I would deeply appreciate These questions, just for all to think about it but not to just say that there are secrets when there aren't...

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Just tell me what questions you have and I will look it up.



When I send a customer's unit in for a scheduled service in the USA and they inform me that it needs to go to Germany and will take twice as long as it should, I would appreciate if they would tell me why. So that I can pass the information along to their customer.

Instead they say nothing at all. And just leave the customer to wonder if their unit had a flaw, if it was randomly pulled for extra test for statistics, if they were too busy in Ohio and had extra capacity in Germany. Nothing. No information at all. just the usual "don't worry little skydiver, we will take care of you" shit. Airtec does not communicate anything at all to anyone ever.

So, look that up for me please.

I won't even start on the the recall they had to do that they refused to call a recall.

I am also glad that someone is taking on the challenge of producing a wingsuit specific AAD. I wish them good luck in the project, it is a difficult task. No one here is talking bad about the product. The product is fine. I do think they should refrain from announcing a product that they do not actually have though. The only part of the company that does communicate is the marketing department. They love to brag and to put down the competition in their advertising. They remind me more and more of that other German company. Volkswagen. Pretty good product, but the marketing is less than straightforward.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

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Just tell me what questions you have and I will look it up.



When I send a customer's unit in for a scheduled service in the USA and they inform me that it needs to go to Germany and will take twice as long as it should, I would appreciate if they would tell me why. So that I can pass the information along to their customer.

Instead they say nothing at all. And just leave the customer to wonder if their unit had a flaw, if it was randomly pulled for extra test for statistics, if they were too busy in Ohio and had extra capacity in Germany. Nothing. No information at all. just the usual "don't worry little skydiver, we will take care of you" shit. Airtec does not communicate anything at all to anyone ever.

So, look that up for me please.

I won't even start on the the recall they had to do that they refused to call a recall.

I am also glad that someone is taking on the challenge of producing a wingsuit specific AAD. I wish them good luck in the project, it is a difficult task. No one here is talking bad about the product. The product is fine. I do think they should refrain from announcing a product that they do not actually have though. The only part of the company that does communicate is the marketing department. They love to brag and to put down the competition in their advertising. They remind me more and more of that other German company. Volkswagen. Pretty good product, but the marketing is less than straightforward.




Well as I don't know what time you mean with "take twice as long as it should", how long should it usually take and how long does it take?

I personally would ask the place you send it to in the US, why it has to go to Germany and not ask Airtec. Maybe they can answer you quicker, as you are in the same timezone..
If they can't answer why then I would ask the Germans.
I never had Problems with airtec, maybe because they aren't far away from my place and in the same Country...

But that's all not really part of the Topic in General!

You said that they would keep a big secret on how they work, not on the time they need for the check.


"The product is fine. I do think they should refrain from announcing a product that they do not actually have though."
Is not true, I have seen the Wingsuit Cypres at the 25th anniversary Boogie of Cypres. There are many testjumps already done. So they already have the product, just not yet on the market.

Believe it or not, apple and Samsung already have their new product too, but not on the market yet.

Google "iphone 7" for example and you will find many articles and announcements of apple for their product even so there are no deep technical informations about it and they don't have it on the market yet.

as soon as the product is available you will get all the technical Information you ever want. It's with pretty much all products that way, because they always have minor changes before releasing the full product.

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gowlerk

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Just tell me what questions you have and I will look it up.



When I send a customer's unit in for a scheduled service in the USA and they inform me that it needs to go to Germany and will take twice as long as it should, I would appreciate if they would tell me why. So that I can pass the information along to their customer.

Instead they say nothing at all. And just leave the customer to wonder if their unit had a flaw, if it was randomly pulled for extra test for statistics, if they were too busy in Ohio and had extra capacity in Germany. Nothing. No information at all. just the usual "don't worry little skydiver, we will take care of you" shit. Airtec does not communicate anything at all to anyone ever.



I agree that it isn't satisfactory for the customer to receive no information at all. This should be changed but you have to address this to SSK not to Airtec.

When SSK receives a unit for testing they are authorized to perform every check that has to be made. They are NOT authorized to do any kind of repair or upgrade to the unit. So it might be a sensor which is slightly off, a hardware upgrade or some serious issue which requires the unit to be sent to Germany. I discussed this personally with Helmut Cloth, the owner of Airtec, and he says he wants to keep all the critical work in-house to have full quality control.

I will forward your wish for better communication to him, so that he can discuss with SSK.

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The statements "Airtec doesn't give you all the info because of IP" and "I encourage you to learn everything about your AAD" really clashes.
Either we learn how the units work through information shared by the developers or we assume they work based on how the unit has performed historically.

I personally am not very interested in getting the WSC based on what I know (which is almost nothing, although I may admittedly possibly have missed months of information regarding the unit) + its history which doesn't exist.
I was also pretty surprised when they started promoting the unit by showing footage of Roberta Mancino.
Until they actual tell us how this unit works I see no reason to get it. If anything I would feel less safe with it than a regular Cypres 2.

If there are any discussions with more information about this unit I'd very much appreciate links to them. The only thing I can see in the gears forum is a thread which is as dead as this thread, and has been since July (when I was apparently the last poster there).
I really hope Airtec does tell us what this unit actually is supposed to do, otherwise there is a big chance I'm going to buy another AAD when my current Cypres is EOL.

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First, full disclosure, I am working on an AAD that has a thread in the Gear and Rigging section and have a genuine question about the Wingsiut Cypres.

So as I understand it, the Wingsuit Cypres has a slower vertical descent rate threshold so it will be more compatible with Wingsuit flight conditions, both normal, and not lets say lol..

Then after main deployment it switches into Canopy mode and alerts the jumper of the switch. I assume it goes back to a higher speed vertical descent rate threshold so it doesn't fire under canopy.

I was thinking about Wingsuit scenarios and how my AAD would handle them, and one made me think of what would the Wingsuit Cypres do in the following scenario;

A Wingsuit pilot exits the plane, flies their pattern, and deploys successfully above the firing altitude, all is well and good... But what if it was a brutally hard opening that caused canopy damage? Damage that allowed the canopy to fly fairly well on its own, perhaps with a slow turn, or cell damage, broken lines etc.. the point being that as far as the Wingsuit Cypres thinks, all is well and it switches into canopy mode, (presumably with a higher decent rate threshold). So the pilot decides to cut away, does so, but for what ever reason, cannot find the reserve or cannot pull it and goes into free fall.

I am wondering, if, sense at this point in the jump, the Wingsuit Cypres is canopy mode, but, the jumper is still wearing a wing suit in a varied state of configuration, what firing speed is the Wingsuit Cypres currently set to and will the jumper be able to reach that speed?

My question is, if the Wingsuit Cypres needs a separate mode for Wingsuit flight and Canopy Flight, then I have to assume that the firing speeds are different. What happens if a wingsuit pilot goes back into free fall after presumably good main canopy deployment and mode change alert?

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mxk

Once it switches out of wingsuit mode, it will behave as a regular CYPRES either in Expert (78 mph) or Speed (102 mph) mode, depending on the configuration. Exact parameters are described in the manual starting on page 16: https://www.cypres.aero/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CYPRES_2_users_guide_English_2017-01.pdf



Than is what I thought, thank you... It also says it is possible for it to switch to canopy mode in the plane...

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df8m1

...what would the Wingsuit Cypres do in the following scenario;

A Wingsuit pilot exits the plane, flies their pattern, and deploys successfully above the firing altitude, all is well and good... But what if it was a brutally hard opening that caused canopy damage? Damage that allowed the canopy to fly fairly well on its own, perhaps with a slow turn, or cell damage, broken lines etc.. the point being that as far as the Wingsuit Cypres thinks, all is well and it switches into canopy mode, (presumably with a higher decent rate threshold). So the pilot decides to cut away, does so, but for what ever reason, cannot find the reserve or cannot pull it and goes into free fall.



If you're that unlucky maybe skydiving is just not your thing....

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But in all seriousness. AAD are meant to save lives and should be as simple as possible. Every addition to it makes it more susceptible to failures.

So if you try to make it work in a case which happens in one in 100,000 or 1,000,000 jumps, the risk that it will not work properly in those 100,000 jumps increases

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all is well and it switches into canopy mode



Canopy mode is just 'normal' AAD mode, meaning 78 mph activation speed. So any normal freefall at 750 ft will cause a normal AAD deployment (or 1000 ft if jumper uses an increased firing altitude)

So in the (slighly retarded) example, a jumper going back into freefall would still have a 'normal' Cypres activation. Just not the added lower wingsuit speed activation benefits.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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True... My interest was in regards to if Wingsuit Pilots saw any benefit to having their AAD be able to fire at the lower speed in the event of a cut away (RSL or not).

A canopy collision or any other reason to cut away would "potentially" put the jumper in free fall and they may not reach the "Expert" firing speed because of the suit.

Granted it is low in probability, but from a design perspective it is interesting. Just as there is a balance between capability and complexity, there is an equal balance between simplicity and reliability / predictability..

Its all good. Thanks for answering my question :)

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Now it looks like cypres WSC is already available and there are some info in manual about modes (let's say enough for understanding how to use).
So, as I anyway need new aad for next year (my cypres2 exp is ended) I think about WSC version. But I already have 2 audibles (neptune, optima) in my helmet (and it is quite convenient). Where could I put 3rd one? Any ideas or recomendations?

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Twilight_Sun

Now it looks like cypres WSC is already available and there are some info in manual about modes (let's say enough for understanding how to use).
So, as I anyway need new aad for next year (my cypres2 exp is ended) I think about WSC version. But I already have 2 audibles (neptune, optima) in my helmet (and it is quite convenient). Where could I put 3rd one? Any ideas or recomendations?



why do you want 3 audibles?
BASE 1519

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I already have 2. It is convenitent for me. I can set sometimes an additional signal and don't have to worry about one will not work (cause of battery, software, hardware or anything else; and yes it happens from time to time). Also I feel nice not to use visual altimeter in freefall so I can put it on a place where it is better seen under canopy. Of course throw out one of audibles is the simplest solution but not that I'd like to do
So it looks like Cypres WSC is a 3rd thing that should be near my ear and it's not easy to put it in helmet in my case... maybe I'd buy just regular AAD... not sure yet

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I suspect that Airtec have been capturing a lot of data from good and bad student jumps, and then based on that set specific parameters to the Student edition (or set mode) of Cypres. I think suggesting other use cases for it, than what it was ment for by the designers, is dangerous. Over here there are many wingsuiters using the WSC now. I have not yet made up my mind about it.

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birdynamnam

I suspect that Airtec have been capturing a lot of data from good and bad student jumps, and then based on that set specific parameters to the Student edition (or set mode) of Cypres. I think suggesting other use cases for it, than what it was ment for by the designers, is dangerous. Over here there are many wingsuiters using the WSC now. I have not yet made up my mind about it.

Why said anything about Cypress? I jump a Mars M2 Multi. The only real difference as I understand it between the modes (at least with Mars and Vigil) is the activation height and speed. For the M2, intermediate mode (which is student on the Vigil) is 45 MPH and 1085 feet. Pro mode is 78 MPH and 885 feet.

I have an additional 200' added to my pro mode setting which means effectively the only difference between pro and intermediate mode is that one activates at 45 MPH and the other at 78 MPH.

I dont understand why AAD manufacturers keep coming out with all these different modes. Student mode, intermediate mode, pro mode, extreme mode, CP mode, blah, blah. Why not just let the user set the activation speed and height? The Mars M2 Multi already lets you set your own activation height (in increments of 100'). Why not add the speed setting to so then you can create whatever 'mode' you want?

I would set mine to 1100' and 60 MPH which is partway between pro and intermediate. It's fast enough that I dont need to worry about activation under canopy, but slow enough that a small WS would probably still activate it. As it is, my only choices are intermediate (45 MPH) or pro (78 MPH). A 60 MPH setting would be more ideal.

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