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USPA has no requirements, just recommendations. Those are 200 and C license, but not every DZ enforces it. Based on his responses, he won't listen. Not to advice, not to the "Small Format Camera Incidents Thread", not to anything. He has Madd Skilz. You can see it in his responses. He's got tunnel time so he's ahead of the learning curve. He's got high speed motorcycle experience so skydiving isn't that big of a deal. I just hope his lesson is gentle enough that he survives without permanent damage. Unlike some of the others that have come and gone. Sangi in particular. "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

I'd like to make a suggestion. Time is against us. We do not have time to spend as we have so far, infinitely bickering among ourselves and accomplishing nothing. It takes time to institute new bureaucracy of any sort. We can argue about the creation of a rating all we want. Perhaps we should move forward with that as well but it is a separate issue. The problem is that we have too many people flying wingsuits who do not understand or are not aware of the level of risk they are taking and the physics involved. They are not educating themselves, nor are they putting even the minimum amount of thought into it, actually thinking about, understanding and taking into account the physics and conditions involved. Not all of us need to be forced or led. I flew all sizes of suits for years and kept myself safe by paying attention to what I was doing. I had nobody to teach me. I was learning it by studying the physics and the techniques of the few other birds who existed at the time. Nobody ever needed to warn me about the tail, (they did anyway though, especially the year we had a Caravan, thank you!) I understood the threat from the start and developed ingrained habits to avoid it. It seemed incredibly obvious. Like the consequences of NOT flaring. Especially on low tailed aircraft, I learned to scrunch desperately like my life depended on it, because it does. I am among the lighter weight wingsuit pilots flying the biggest of suits and am more vulnerable to this threat than almost anyone else in the sky. Which is why I'm so aware of it. To me all tails are a guillotine blade I must dodge each and every time. But the pioneer days are over, we exist in mass numbers now and we have made it look too easy and too accessible. Now we have rapidly increasing numbers of people with wingsuits and almost no awareness of what they can actually do. Many of these tailstrikes, including the fatality from '09 who happened to be a close friend of mine, were caused by experienced wingsuiters screwing up. Simply shouting from the rooftops "We have to have a rating" Is not an effective way to address the issue. It is a large, indirect blanket method, typical of bureaucratic police thinking and does nothing to address the fact that many of these strikes are by people already experienced enough that such a rating program would have had no effect on the outcome whatsoever. The '09 fatality. I taught him from first flight myself. Including the hazards of tails. Flew with him his whole wingsuit career. Led by example. He watched me experiment with prototypes that jacked my tailstrike risk 1000fold, watched me successfully deal with it all without incident and STILL he was unaware. He had years of experience. He was repeatedly warned about increasing carelessness by his own crew. And it was still not enough to prevent his death. He let his guard down and it killed him. A concrete, effective action solution is required NOW. Not 6 months from now after half a dozen more tailstrikes and 50,000 pages worth of political maneuvering for status and power within the community only to arrive at an expensive and complex bureaucratic "solution" that does NOTHING to actually STOP this and is guaranteed to provoke instant reflex defiance from every wannabe rebel in the sport, of which we have many. Wingsuiting attracts such people like flies. Any solution must address their existence AND their nature. The creation and mandating of a rating will have no effect on the already well-experienced wingsuit population responsible for half these incidents. I do not argue against a rating. For what its worth, more and more I support the idea of its creation. With mass adoption comes mass stupidity, mass carelessness and mass arrogance and so we get the Miami Tailstrike Contest. What did they think they were doing, a carnival ride where everything's been made safe enough for a drug-addled juvenile to survive it no matter what they do? The complete, oblivious carefree idiocy on display was a symptom of fatal mindlessness growing endemic throughout our community. What we have done so far is not working. When wingsuits were exclusive to the highly aware daring explorer types among us who could take care of themselves we were fine. Now, wingsuits are the new Swooping and we are attracting mass numbers of guys like Sangi (if you don't know, do a search for the tale of his short and brutal career as a "mad skyllz swooper") but now they have the power to take the entire aircraft with them. And with the bullheaded pig-ignorant stupidity of all such types, they will not stop or change course until they actually DO take down a plane. We've been lucky so far. Our luck has just run out. One of the tailstrikes in the last year was by a guy with over 7,000 jumps. I'd have thought surely THAT was enough to prepare the guy and assure his awareness of airflow/gear interaction possibilities but clearly it was not. Experience is no guarantee, and a rating will not touch those who think they already know what they're doing. Including those careless ones who HAVE been trained, take a casual skygod attitude, let down their guard and continue to have tailstrikes anyway. I argue for direct, effective action, NOW. The most effective way to stop this and stop it cold is to get the information out there. By any means necessary. Jam it in everybody's faces. The images Spot put up here are revealing. The sight of bird after bird exiting with wings half-spread is like watching kids tap-dancing on the interstate, oblivious. I want to slap them for waltzing into such a threatening situation with such a cavalier attitude and without taking the trouble to even make THEMSELVES aware of the hazards they're facing... and creating. Point 1: A rating will help but it is not a solution in itself. Creating such rating and declaring "We fixed it, see?" is begging for a fall. What will we do when the experienced but careless birds, unaffected by regulations imposed on newbies, continue to smack tails anyway? Wail "But we FIXED it?" We didn't. It'll look all proper, satisfy the bureaucrats, (for awhile) there'll be all kinds of i's to dot and t's to cross and signatures to collect and people will feel smug and satisfied that they "did something effective" because The System says thats how all things are fixed, and it will, not, actually, stop the tailstrikes. "You have all these rules and you think they'll save you." -The Joker Point 2: It could take years longer before any real consensus or agreement is reached in the community. We don't HAVE years. In the middle of a mal you don't spend time debating what is the best emergency procedure. You ACT. To the best of your knowledge, with whatever you have at hand. Not by some rigid process depicted in a policy manual but by whatever means will ACTUALLY SOLVE THE PROBLEM NOW. A half-effective solution may be worse than no solution at all. After we have a rating, and "we" have collectively notified the insurance industry that "we have policies in place now" and the tailstrikes continue, what then? I have little but contempt for most forms of institutional authority because it only knows one blind, blanket solution to all problems. "People are breaking or ignoring the rules? We'll make even MORE rules, that'll stop em!" Point 3: There is only one way I can think of that can be at least unopposed if not enthusiastically promoted by all, to address this in a concrete manner. A direct information campaign. The procedures we need to propagate and make known are basic and can be depicted on a single sheet. It will be a whole lot easier to get the entire community to agree on a simple set of procedures to post in every aircraft and at every boarding area for addressing exit hazards than an entire rating and its attendant requirements and bureaucracy. Spot already has this handled at his place. He did not wait for the system to solve it for him. While waiting to see how the rating effort turned out, he ACTED DIRECTLY. But his efforts are limited in effect to his sphere of influence. Its a massive help and the most professional operation we've got going that I know of but it is not enough. We have a large assortment of small kingdoms watched over by the birds who founded them but all the spaces in between are unguarded. Miami is proof of that. And a preview of the results. We can no longer count on the intelligence and awareness of the individual birds involved because the filtering mechanism that used to protect us is no longer functioning. Fear and ignorance no longer keep the idiots out. They got the idea this is easy, too many of them ventured over the line without getting bit, and now they're coming for us. We are outnumbered and we cannot win. Not as we are. Take a good look at the "mad skillz" swoop community. How many of them REFUSE to learn till AFTER they shatter their bodies. With years and hundreds of examples to ignore. The danger only encourages them to prove how "mad skillz" they REALLY are and how THEY are the exception they don't NEED canopy skill drills or education because THEY are faster smarter and ahead of all those average guys and so we have a neverending supply of them, new ones to replace the fallen as fast as they can break themselves. Thats us next week. We need a solution that will be noticed and heeded by newbs and veterans alike. The veterans causing half the problem will blow off, ignore and dismiss the rating before its even created because the rules already do not apply to them. I know of two forms of action that are actually effective in addressing such issues. The first is to get the damn info out there. Short. Succinct. Bullet points and one or two cartoon graphics on a simple sign we can post at every boarding area and in every aircraft. A simple image of a wingsuit in midexit with wings tightly scrunched and a "1...2...open" followed by an image of a wingsuit in midexit with wings open, striking the tail, with little cartoon X's over his eyes and a big red X across the image. Get it OUT there. By any means necessary, polite or obnoxious. Jam it in people's faces so thoroughly it cannot be dismissed or ignored. Get the wingsuit waiver made. Its a start. Convince DZOs to institute it of their own free will out of rational self interest. People can argue that it will be ignored and initialed the way the basic waivers we already sign for general jumping are. But they miss the point. The waiver is NOT ignored. Some try to, and try to sue anyway, but everyone who jumps signs one, and everyone who jumps knows what they are signing and WHY. THAT, is what we need to make known...the WHY. There isn't a single skydiver who does not constantly encounter the words "Parachuting is a high risk activity that may result in injury or death" everywhere they look. Its on the waiver. Its written on our canopies. Our rigs. In our manuals. This approach HAS ALREADY WORKED against threats that could have ended skydiving. NOBODY can plead ignorance. That example is the most thorough awareness-saturation campaign that has ever been held by skydivers and it WORKED. THAT is what we must do. Now. The second form of action is simple peer pressure. Talk about it. To everybody. Rehearse. Publicly. Explain what and why. Refer them to the damn signs! Don't wait for one, don't wait for mine, make your own. Explain that this threat exceeds all others that we know of and that anything less than hypervigilance is no longer acceptable Spot teaches 3 seconds' delay. Its thorough and leaves a margin for error including newbies counting at triple speed due to excitement. Some argue that its excessive. Robin argues for just 1 second. I say this is not enough. I could do a rushed "one-count", pop my apache half a second into the exit and still hit the tail. We do not want to bet the future of our sport on a borderline one second wide. We need a commonly known procedure that works even if you screw it up because people WILL. Count on it. At least let us settle on two seconds as a MINIMUM safety standard. To HELL with how it affects building formations. A wasted second after exit makes less difference to us than any other form of skydiver. We HAVE the time. AFTER we're out and clear. If an additional one second delay is enough to prevent a bird from making it into a formation that bird does not in fact know how to exit and fly the hill yet and has no business IN the formation and needs to stick to basic flight practice until they do. This can be taught by rating holders LATER. They need to have the basic survival skills made known to them, unignorably, NOW. THAT, we can do immediately. I'm sure the bickering skygods will make drama and protest whats all the hysteria about, we don't need no waiver, etc... but its existence and the signs everywhere will be causing them to ASK THE QUESTION in spite of themselves and their own attitude. It will force the issue to the front of their minds even against their will, in spite of their best efforts to ignore it or cop an attitude that they're so skilled it doesn't apply to them. Which is the point. Our problem isn't "not enough rules" our problem is "not enough AWARENESS." We can fix THAT much faster than we can make and enforce new rules and new bureaucracy. If we don't stop this now there won't BE any formations. There will be people who rush the "one-count" but making common procedure a mental state of waiting 2 beats means even a half-panicked hyped-up "onetwoopen!" by an overexcited noob still incudes more than the one actual second required to clear the aircraft. A minimum extra margin for error MUST be built into universally known procedure because people will need it, people will use it, and if that margin isn't taught as an inherent part of the procedure this approach will not work. People will obey the peer pressure rules as best they can and hit the tail anyway. I am not going to wait around for the rest of the community to get the picture and come to an agreement either. The necessary minimum action to begin addressing this is clear. To demonstrate by action that I do not think myself any more exempt than anyone else, I shall go first. And I begin acting on this, today. I will be seen demonstrating and practicing proper exit technique by the mockup even if there are no other birds present to see. Some aspiring birds WILL see. And ask. And learn. Which is the point. Anyone with some art skills willing and able to create a custom "public sign style" cartoon image in the nonverbal style used for road signs and public things such as fire exits and wet floors depicting the threat and its solution for prompt release to public domain to help me with this, please contact me immediately. I cannot offer to pay you. All I can offer is that if this works, your work will be seen posted in every Manifest office, aircraft and boarding area in the industry. I've made quite a few friends in this thing. I have deliberately refrained from asking for favors or backup on any issues I could handle myself so that IF I ever needed to call for help for real, that call, would be taken seriously. I'm calling for it now. I need the Cavalry. Even those of you with opposing agendas and even outright interpersonal animosity. Please. Set aside the issues you fight over and work together with me. For this. For US. On just this one thing. Even if you believe it will be ineffective. Indulge me. This is Lurch, and I am calling for your aid. I want more than anything to stop this now before some insurance bureaucrat closes the gates and locks me out of the sky so his shareholders can save a few bucks against the possibility of a risk I myself don't even present because I actually take this seriously. We can't make a rating overnight without wrecking half the community in the process by reflexive defiant opposition but we CAN do THIS and we can do it right now. Jeff. Spot. Scotty. Taya. Ed. Scott Bland. Chuck Blue. All my heroes and friends. Everyone I know. And I mean everyone. At least everyone in the United States. If you fly a wingsuit this involves YOU. Once...just once... I ask us to all pull together in the same direction to accomplish something. All the cynics and jaded birds. Mock me if you must for my silly dramatic idealism but HELP me this one time. Take this request seriously. Just be willing to help post this...when it is made... be willing to help spread the waiver idea. Its not a total solution but its a start and its a lot faster and more direct than a rating. We can't wait around for a rating, we can't wait around for somebody else to "make policy". WE have to make it. NOW. Not by writing it down in some rulebook somewhere but by putting it UP, everywhere. I can do NOTHING alone. I can fix one dropzone... mine. I can have little effect on anything else without a lot of help. I am not going to wait around for an answer. I'm setting off for the DZ now to get started. I'll do whatever I can, today. If you're going to help, do it now, talk about it later. We've lost too much time as it is. -B Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

Yet. But of course you take that as proof of your skill. Just like Sangi and the guy this thread is about. I wish you luck. So at what number of jumps will I be unlucky to be injured vs. being a dickhead who was going too fast in canopy progression You are involved in the most dangerous aspect of skydiving in the history of the sport. You have made 500 jumps in 5 years. The big boys you wish to emulate learned their skills making hundreds if not thousands of jumps a year. At your present level of jumping you will always be the “dick head” going too fast. It’s a shame your attitude has not changed since we had this exchange. Sparky http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4116061#4116061 My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

Yet. But of course you take that as proof of your skill. Just like Sangi and the guy this thread is about. I wish you luck. So at what number of jumps will I be unlucky to be injured vs. being a dickhead who was going too fast in canopy progression I never broke anything and never had to have any surgeries due to swooping or skydiving in general. Maybe you approached it with a bit more forethought and planning, and didn't overestimate your ability or mad skillz, at the same time underestimating the risk.. Or maybe someone gave you a boot in the arse earlier in your career. Or maybe you just got lucky. But as long as you skydive, it'll still be on the cards. My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Yet. But of course you take that as proof of your skill. Just like Sangi and the guy this thread is about. I wish you luck. So at what number of jumps will I be unlucky to be injured vs. being a dickhead who was going too fast in canopy progression I never broke anything and never had to have any surgeries due to swooping or skydiving in general. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

Yet. But of course you take that as proof of your skill. Just like Sangi and the guy this thread is about. I wish you luck. So at what number of jumps will I be unlucky to be injured vs. being a dickhead who was going too fast in canopy progression Once a dickhead always a dickhead. You know, when Spence is right, he's right. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX

Yet. But of course you take that as proof of your skill. Just like Sangi and the guy this thread is about. I wish you luck. So at what number of jumps will I be unlucky to be injured vs. being a dickhead who was going too fast in canopy progression Once a dickhead always a dickhead.

Yet. But of course you take that as proof of your skill. Just like Sangi and the guy this thread is about. I wish you luck. So at what number of jumps will I be unlucky to be injured vs. being a dickhead who was going too fast in canopy progression "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA

You come on here, and call people who sound warnings and give advice to inexperienced jumpers, for their own safety "canopy nazis". After resisting all efforts to educate you on the same issue not long ago, when you were similarly inexperienced. And you are surprised??. Yet. But of course you take that as proof of your skill. Just like Sangi and the guy this thread is about. I wish you luck. My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Wow, I just did a search for Sangi, read a load of posts and watched a couple of videos. Thats pretty damn sobering. I cant imagine what his emotions must be. Getting hurt in this sport, because of an accident is one thing, but ending up a paraplegic because of a silly decision you made must be pretty hard to deal with. His crash video is pretty harsh, 10 seconds from decision to cripple. F*%K! That is what guys like me are fighting against. Trying to break through those attitudes to prevent this from happening again. If you make it in this sport for very long you'll see this exact same scenario play out more than a few times. Sometimes it is injury, sometimes it is death, never does it end well. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

Wow, I just did a search for Sangi, read a load of posts and watched a couple of videos. Thats pretty damn sobering. I cant imagine what his emotions must be. Getting hurt in this sport, because of an accident is one thing, but ending up a paraplegic because of a silly decision you made must be pretty hard to deal with. His crash video is pretty harsh, 10 seconds from decision to cripple. F*%K!

What have I done that was a rush? What do I need to slow down? Really? Your comment about "experience" and so many jump numbers speaks volumes man. Listen just like DocPop stated I was you. He was you. Hell I bet even AggieDave was like you at one time. Anyone that swoops by definition is a push the envelope kind of person man. You aren't any different or special......YET. If you want to be, I have already told you what to do. Print out Dave's reply on accuracy in the pattern. Do exactly what he said. Count on doing just that for the next 100-200 jumps before ever thinking about swooping. Build your foundation. You have NO idea how valuable that information he gave you is. People pay for it. At your experience level you don't know what you don't know man. Read Brian Germain's book the parachute and it's pilot. Get a coach that it is an experienced competetive canopy pilot. Even if you do all of these things you WILL find yourself in the corner one day. Every canopy pilot does. Will you even recognize it in time? Will you freeze? I did. So did Sangi. There are a ton of guys like Ian, Dave, and so on that will preach wringing the shit out of the large parachutes first. Trust them when they say it will make you a better canopy pilot in the long run. Those guys really do thrive off of competetion. No one will try to hold you back. They actually want to see you succeed. Your current attitude however just shows another statistic in the making. I am an asshole, but I am honest

It is the truth that apparently both of us have learned ourselves from lucky ass bounces. I have video of mine I would post if I thought it would do any good for the OP. Mine doesn't sound as bad as yours as I went nowhere near 100 feet but it still was a wake up call that I needed to slow down and learn the foundations properly. AggieDave sent me a PM awhile back with all the information he just gave this guy. Top notch stuff for FREE. If the poster is serious about being the worlds best one day he will slow down and take the time to learn that "boring" foundation work. If not he will be another Sangi. Constructive or not the truth is the truth. I doubt even Aggie's advice was "constructive" to the OP because from his displayed attitude it seems to most likely fall on deaf ears. It wasn't what he wanted to hear. I am an asshole, but I am honest

The swooping book I'd read! Heck that's how I ended up in this thread, I was reading in the latest Sangi thread in the swooping forum. Anyway, for a GREAT flash, check out these Yongnuo YN-560 II. They are very affordable, but great quality for what you get. I have and love Nik software. Photomatix is good too though. I like the selective color you have on your site. Here is my own personal fav selective color shot. http://500px.com/photo/2106424

next sangi it is!

best troll ever or the next sangi?

Might you be referring to Sangi? "In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

'swoop' a tiny canopy into the ground at a low experience level of 100 jumps, and you kill or injure just yourself. The ground wont care. Swoop a wingsuit into a canopy and you kill another person (or two), plus get wingsuit flying and tandemjumping put on hold due to FAA investigation. Costing not just lives, but also millions of dolars for affected DZs. I indeed suggest you have some actual experience at doing something (2 to 3 hours of flying experience is very little) before doing dangerous to even stupid things in an activity that should be seen as a planned stunt for trained/experienced skydivers vs fun thing to 'try' Your attitude in the few posts you have shows the exact reason why we will see more and more DZs creating rules against wingsuit flying. Get some skills before you try showing of....every jump is fun, and can learn you a ton of new things. Take it slow and gradually work towards certain goals, instead of starting with the goals without the skills to execute them properly. Talk to Sangi and listen to his lesson on what rushing into thing prematurely can lead to. And he is far from the only example. Whats the rush dude? Take it easy... JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

Sangi had a swooping accident half a year ago, and is on a long road to recovery from a broken back and being paralized from the waist down. He still reads dz.com every once in a while and knows he sadly learnt lessons in life the hard way. He was much more better at the trolling thing than this guy though JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

my lord what happened to sangi? i figured he had disregarded everything on the basefucker forum and gone in on a BASE jump by now gravity brings me down.........

With Sangi now actually turned into a more sensible person, somebody had to fill the gap JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete?

So, May 1, you say: (Ref: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4311937;page=unread#unread Now, just 2 short weekend's later, THIS? You really are a "piece of work", aren't you? - Seriously. ...And you get offended when ANYONE really says ANYTHING at all (or even really tries) to you. Your "game" on here, whatever it is - is truly, tiresome. Honestly not looking forward to seeing your "Sangi-esque" scheme unfold. But whatever. You're an adult right? Please just don't either take out, or hurt anyone else with your endeavors is all. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I know very few mentors who would act like that on the first run. Yes, there are some. None in DZ.com that I know of. Type A) Damn! I must have screwed up good! Let me learn from this ass-chewing, or Type B) Fuck you asshole I'm not gonna listen to a word you say. It's a matter of level of maturity. Simple as that. I dunno. I'm type A.Well, I have to qualify that and say that there were two that set me off. Apparently, there are a helluva lot of Type Bs there and that's sad. Yes, most prefer the soft touch and that's fine. Most of the Type Bs aren't going to listen to rhyme or reason anyway no matter how you put it....we see it all too often. This thread was about one of those. Sangi was another. +1 and well said! My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

>That is pure supposition. We should really try to deal in facts. It may > have saved lives but we can never know. It almost certainly saved Sangi's. And yes, we can never know 100%, We can never know if the FJC saves any lives. People might just survive just fine if you strap a rig on them and kick them out the door at 12,500 feet with no instruction. But the smart money is on the "saves lives" square. >It is still bullying and in my opinion that is always wrong. Really? A DZO who tells a jumper who is jumping a Velocity at 100 jumps is foolish, and they can't jump it there, is wrong? >This sort of brow-beating makes people shut down and not want to >come back to dz.com. And the browbeating they get from the DZO may cause them to not come back to the DZ. Which is good. This isn't bowling. You can die doing this.

Hmmmm. I smell something fishy...and it ain't fish. As you say, who takes down their jump numbers, and why?. After his last post I speculated that he might have sold everyone a dummy, with his claim of putting his velo on the shelf. Now I strongly suspect he did post that in an attempt to take a bit of the heat off. If that is the case he is still a DGIT. I notice he also removed the post about how safe and careful he really is. Too bad it was already quoted... His Utube videos have disappeared as well. Ultimately, he is only fooling himself.... I hope no one accords him sympathy after his inevitable impact with the planet.... Sangi Mk 2...... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....