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Showing results for 'SABRE2 VS CROSSFIRE2'.
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Hello, I would like some feedback on the differences between the Sabre2 and CrossFire2 canopies. At equivalent size what are the differences? My wingloading for XFire2 109=1.67 and for Sabre2 107=1.70 I have 1400 jumps, my number of jumps per year is decreasing now only 50 jumps per year. I have 700 jumps on the XFire2 109 I intend to change my CrossFire2 109 for a Sabre2 107, what should I expect for the opening, landing, behavior? Thanks
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This has been discussed numerous times on dz.com. Using the search function resulted in the following for your review: https://www.dropzone.com/search/?q=SABRE2 VS CROSSFIRE2&quick=1
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When I downsized to the crossfire2 I immediately noticed how much faster the fronts loaded up. It had a much shallower glide as well. It took me a good 40 jumps to get my brain to allow me to crank a 180 at 400 feet. Even now, if I watch someone do a perfect 180 on a crossfire2 it looks stupid low. The sabre2 felt more ground hungry, but wasn't as strict, for me. If my set up and turn weren't just right, I could always muscle it into holding a dive a bit longer. The crossfire 2 just loads up and recovers positively. I hated that thing. I haven't flown a Katana. I was told by a few experienced pilots that it might be exactly what I was looking for. Then I noticed that the people with CP metals kept telling me to get a crossfire2. Haha. In regards to ultra high performance, I'm assuming they meant "ultra high performance, non-cross braced". So it flies more like a cross braced wing? The sabre2 and crossfire2 both feel responsive enough with fronts and harness, but when you give full input, it just loads up and tries to recover. They "act" like there is a lot of power waiting for you to use, but there isn't. All bark and no bite. Zippy at first, but safer because they'll load up and recover. Possibly harder to get into trouble with? The crossfire2 recovery arc was always felt like hitting a wall. I just couldn't get more out of it. It was an unbreakable law. Once you feel it start loading up, theres no stopping it. Even snapping it around won't help it. On the other hand, you can keep the x-fire diving. The X-fire feels quiet in the harness, but if you reef on it it'll build power and speed for A LOT longer before trying to recover. All bite and no bark. Feels like a no stress wing, care free opening, but when you want it to dive and keep diving, it will. Probably easier to find yourself in the corner. If you build more power, it'll take longer to recover... unlike the crossfire2. Please don't share this video. I'll leave it up for a few days if anyone wants to watch. https://vimeo.com/217050938 Most turns are full harness w/ some front pressure. I kept airspeed up so the wing was flying pretty rigid. Still pretty playful even when its trying to load up. The 540 after opening was going to be a 270, but I decided to keep it going. You'll see the hesitation in my POV. I could barely get a crossfire2 around before it would load up, let alone with any hesitation. The last 360 in the cloud that I depressurized for is all harness with some front right pressure. Comes around easy and would have loved to keep diving.
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If you could find a 119 x-fire, you'd enjoy going to it from a sabre2 120. Sabre2 135 to crossfire2 119 was good and bad for me. I liked the rears, but it was trimmed too flat, coming from the sabre2. The recovery arc was dramatically shorter than the sabre2. The crossfire 2 was strict, in that it had a very narrow altitude window in which to initiate your turn. It just loaded up so fast, so it was hard to prolong your turn. I could force the sabre2 to keep diving if I needed to, which was nice. The crossfire2 would recover positively if I really wound it up. Really f*$king annoying. The X-fire is my first wing that gives me everything I want. It's not intimidating, but should be respected. On a 119 @ 1.8 it has power, but I still had to give full input. However, it does demand smooth controlled inputs. If you tug a front too quick, the wing will respond and snap in that direction faster than it can translate through your lines and to you. It felt like an extension of my body within 3 jumps, but I've still kept my turns high, looking for more power to keep it diving... just so I don't accidentally find it later on. To whoever said "how can it be a transitional canopy if its in its own class" or however they worded it, I believe they were aiming to make a stepping stone to cross braced wings. I'll let you know when I get on a cross braced.
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getting into swooping - crossfire2 characteristic
skow replied to honest.py's topic in Swooping and Canopy Control
A Sabre2 or Crossfire3 would be a good option. They both should be better for learning to swoop. Katana may also be a good next canopy, but after short recovery arc of both Safire2 and Crossfire2 it may surprise you, so be careful! And before all, good coaching is always a good idea! -
Skylark odyssey compared to same sized sabre2
degeneration replied to Sabrekakkonen's topic in Gear and Rigging
Yes, but not in the same size. Odyssey I've flown 120, 105 and 100 Sabre2 only in 135. And I didn't fly them close to each other time wise. But from what I recall of the Sabre2, which i didn't jump that much, it was less snappy in turns, and generally more docile and less high performance feeling. that could all be down to the size difference, lack of paying that much attention at the time, my comparative lower experience when I was on the Sabre2, and only jumping it for a handful of jumps. Odyssey, however, is my favourite canopy so far. It being more comparable to a crossfire2, but a little better. Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic). -
Here are my observations from flying a demo X-Fire 124 for two weekends. I don't have much experience flying different canopies, so instead of giving general characteristics, I'll stick to comparing it to my current canopy, a Crossfire2 129. I am just getting into swooping, and that's what I was mainly evaluating it for. This seems to be a common situation for people, so I hope this comparison will be of some use. I have an exit weight of 195lbs and the wing-loadings of the cf2 and xf are similar: ~1.51 and ~1.57lbs/sqft respectively. I only made 19 jumps on the X-Fire. The openings were quite different from other canopies I've flown (crossfire2, safire2s, sabre2). For the first few jumps I was opening at 10kft (and density altitude of ~14kft), at terminal, and they were a little sharp (FlySight data shows peaks of about 3g, but I am not sure it can be trusted). Not uncomfortably sharp, but close. I started to split roll the nose, and that helped a lot. If all openings are like this I would be happy, but I am slightly worried that any outliers (say, 50% faster) will be painful. Out of 19 openings, 16 were head-on (within, say, 30˚), one did a 90˚ turn, one did a 360˚ turn, and one did a 360˚ with line twists. The last one has two and a half twists, and it did not dive. That's not much data, but it looks good to me. I think my cf2 has a similar rate of >180˚ turns, and body position could be part of the reason. The brakes are stowed very shallowly, so popping one toggle doesn't have much of an effect. This is also apparent from the FlySight descent rate data: 12-13mph with brakes stowed, and 13-14mph with brakes unstowed. Compare with 7-8mph with brakes stowed and 12-13mph with brakes unstowed on my cf2. The canopy is overall more responsive to input than my cf2. For toggles and rears the difference is small, but for harness and front risers it is significant. The range of the toggles (from start of tail deflection to stall) is shorter, and they are heavier. Similarly, it stalls on rears with less input. I noticed some over-steer for front riser and harness turns, but not much (the cf2 doesn't over-steer at all, as far as I can tell). The toggles are a little bit twitchier, I needed to pay some attention to flare symmetrically. The front risers are heavier than the cf2. Once it enters a dive it is much easier to keep it diving by maintaining harness input. I can keep it in a turn indefinitely, while on my cf2 I can not even get a consistent 270 because it starts to recover unless I get it just right. However, once the input is released it seems to recover in a way similar to the cf2. With enough speed the cf2 recovers to flying completely level. The xf seems to take longer to recover, but at least on one occasion I see it go to a descent rate of just 3mph, and I suspect that with more speed it might go level too. I wish I had more time to test, as that was the part I was most interested in. In short, the recovery arc seems longer, but similar to that of the cf2. In a 90˚ turn, executed in a similar way I lose 380ft on my cf2 and ~450-480ft on the xf. But it's hard to compare because I didn't have time to make my turns consistent enough. It feels like there is more power in the flare than the cf2. The glide, thankfully, is nothing like a katana. It is perhaps a little steeper in full flight than my cf2, but not by much. It felt stable and steerable in deep brakes. All in all, I was happy with the canopy and I definitely like it better than my cf2 for my use (starting to swoop). I wish I could also compare it to the Crossfire3 and the Tesla.
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Why I got the storm... I've got ~450 Jumps now. Before I got the storm, I did a bit more than 300 jumps on a Sabre2 170, which I think was the perfect entry-level canopy for me. I spent those 300 jumps doing a Flight1 canopy course and working actively on my canopy piloting skills. When I was able to safely and repeatedly execute precise, clean and smooth 90° frontriser-turns for landing I decided it was time for a new canopy, and I selected Crossfire2, Sabre2 and the Storm as possible candidates for my second canopy. The Crossfire would have been the most powerful choice, but given my low experience (~350 jumps at that time), I decided it would be better to get a more docile canopy that would be more forgiving if I ever fuck up a landing (Murphy says I will at one point). I already knew the Sabre2 (and sincerely loved it), but it would be nice to experience a new canopy, and since I do a lot of wingsuiting, I decided it would be a good idea to get a Storm 135 as a next canopy. I load the canopy around 1:1.35 and have put a little more than 100 jumps on it. Toggle turns: Quick and responsive, with a very long range on inputs. You can fly them quick and responsive, and also slow and altitude saving. The brake setting seems quite deep, so when you unstow the brakes the canopy goes into a relatively deep dive, which you will get used to quickly. Harness turns: On the fist jumps I quickly noticed is that its a lot more responsive on harness input than I expected from a 7 cell, you can easily turn the canopy around with harness right after opening with your harness while the brakes are still stowed, which is great for wingsuiting. The counter part of this is of course that especially after downsizing, you might sometimes perform accidental 180° turns during inflation, I learned to control this after a couple of jumps though. Openings I found the openings to be generally nice, it's got a longish snivel, but the last inflation phase tended to be a little bit brisk, which I didn't like, because I'm jumping heavier cameras frequently. So I tried to find a solution in packing, and guess what, I found it. During the last 50 jumps I stopped flaking the canopy during packing. I only check the lines, give the canopy a decent shake and directly quarter the slider. I do not even touch the inside of the canopy in any way. This gave me a noticeably (!) softer second inflation phase during opening, and safes me a couple of minutes while packing, which is great! Recovery-Arch As I mentioned earlier, I'm very interested in learning the basics of high-performance-canopy control, as I simply like the learning process, and it's tons of fun! At the first landings I found it a lot harder to load the storm with power, than it was on the Sabre2. Although 2 sizes larger, I had much more power and longer swoops on the Sabre2 170 with 90° turns. This on one side seems to be due to not yet perfect technique and on the other side the much shorter recovery arch of the storm (7 cell - thicker profile). I managed to refine my technique a lot during the last 100 jumps on the storm, but the first jumps were very frustrating. I had to put down my setup a lot lower than I was used to from the Sabre2 (which I found scary). Since the last 100 jumps I got used to the quicker recovery, and while refining the technique I could put my setup back up to less scary heights, but still, the storm loses the power much quicker than the sabre2 (no real surprise, is it?). This is a con if you wanna have long swoops, but then swooping is not the reason why you would get a Storm. On the pro side, the short recovery-arch makes me very comfortable landing in tight spots with that canopy, since I know I can get it to a stop very quickly and safely.
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Until about jump 70 many different canopies renting (i don't remember jump numbers per canopy, but not that many), while I had a 120 Kg exit weigth: Navigator 280, 260, 240, 220 Silhouete 210, 190 Pulse 210, 190 After that (my Main canopies): Sabre1 190, about 80 jumps @120 Kg Exit Weigth Sabre2 170, about 450 jumps @120 Kg Exit Weigth Crossfire 139, about 400 jumps @120 Kg Exit Weigth, aftar that I lost about 22 Kg and did another 200 jumps JVX-119, about 200 jumps @98 Kg Exit Weigth About to order a JVX 96 (i'm putting another 100-150 jumps on my 119 until it's ready) Did several jumps on other canopies too (but usualy 1-4 jumps max, borrowing): Optimum 176 (mounting as a main parachute) Katana 150 Katana 135 Stileto 135 Zulu 132 Velocity 103 Velocity 96 JFX 99 I've always been a decent canopy pilot, did a lot of coaching and started doing HP landings on my 170 early on. But I don't recomend my downsizing, especialy the one frome the Sabre2 170 (WL 1,4ish) to a Crossfire2 139 (WL 1,8ish).
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I jumped all 3 canopies and love swooping so I'll give my experience on this topic. I had a Sabre2 -190 (WL at about 1.5) first and started swooping with this one. It's a really good canopy to start swooping and is also forgiving if you make a mistake. You can go the distance with this canopy without all the hassles of an elliptical canopy. I also had a Safire2 - 139 (WL at around 1.8) but hated this canopy for swooping. It has a very short recovery arc which makes it dangerous for swooping because you have to turn low and let the fronts go very low. Although I could get lots of speed and distance with the Safire2 I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who wants to swoop. The Crossfire2 -139 I jump now is perfect for swooping but it's also in a different league then the other two. The recovery arc is pretty long but it isn't very forgiving anymore. The distance you go on swoops isn't comparable with the Sabre2 and the Safire2. The differnce between the Sabre2 - 190 and the Safire2 -139 was smaller for me then the differnce between the Safire2 - 139 and my Crossfire2 -139. Your profile doesn't state how many jumps you have but I wouldn't recommend a Crossfire2 to someone with less then 500 jumps and a lot of canopy skills. If you have the jumps and experience I would recommend a Crossfire2. It's the best canopy I've ever flown. Blue skies!
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Recovery Arcs on intermediate canopies.
CanuckInUSA replied to DebaucheroRdrgz's topic in Swooping and Canopy Control
When you look at the title of this thread is says "Recovery Arcs on intermediate canopies". But many people (myself included) would not consider a Crossfire2 and for sure a Katana as intermediate canopies. I came up through the Sabre2, Crossfire2, Velocity and then JVX ranks. Personally I think the Sabre2 is an awesome canopy for the aspiring intermediate canopy pilot to be learning on. But they should likely keep their turns at 180 or less. The recovery arc is too low to be doing 270s for someone still learning to swoop. Once someone is accomplished doing 180s on something like a Sabre2, the next reasonable canopy to progress to would be something like a Crossfire2 starting slow on it and ultimately progressing to doing 270s. There is nothing saying someone can not skip the Crossfire2 and jump to something like a Katana. A properly mentored/coached canopy pilot who dedicates jumps towards canopy control can progress much faster than the traditional canopy nazis feel that they can progress. But the Katana is high performance (almost cross braced like) and should not be considered a canopy for intermediate canopy pilots. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over -
Guys, need some infos from someone who has tried this. Going to downsize to a Crossfire2 139 and am curious if it will fit in my Icon I5 or be too small. I have jumped a pilot 168 ZPX, which is a fair fit, Sabre2 150 (which packs a bit bigger than the Pilot) and was wondering about the pack volume of a Crossfire2 139 compared to the Sabre2 150. Has anyone tried and can tell me if it's an OK fit, loose fit (which it should be) or a too loose fit? Thx D
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But that's all, right? Let's flesh this out a little. His profile says Sabre 150 at 1.17. Let's say he put on a couple pounds since then, and is now at 1.2 as described. That gives him an exit weight of 180 lbs. Let's compare that to the Crossfire2 line, and we see that the closest thing to that WL is the Crossfire2 119 at 1.5+. So when we look at real numbers, real sizes, and the the scope of the downsize, can see that it's a bad idea three different ways. For starters, he's going from a square to a fully eliptical canopy. The rule of thumb is to make one change at a time. A square to a semi-eliptical (Sabre1 to Sabre2)? Not as bad. Semi-eliptical to a fully eliptical (Sabre2 to Crossfire2)? Also not as bad. Next, he's skipping two sizes. Again, the rule of thumb is one size per downwise, yet this guy is sailing right past the 135/129 size, and moving straight into a 120/119 size. Finally, and this is more my personal opinion, but I think the range of the downsize makes it even worse. To move up .3 lbs per sq ft in one downsize wouldn't be as bad if it was from, say, 1.6 to 1.9. Starting with 1.6, you're already on a 'generously loaded' canopy, and you have an idea of what it's like to fly a 'small' wing. The transition to a 1.9WL wouldn't be as dramatic. When you're starting at 1.2, and let's face it, there are jumpers flying at 1.2 just off student status, into a canopy at 1.5 (which many consider the 'threshold' to HP WL) is just dumb. What happened to 1.3, or 1.4? Where did those go? There are a dozen different ways this guy could be making a better choice, but really, he's making every mistake there is, and all at once. You really think getting some shit online is going to be his only problem? -
Skylark odyssey compared to same sized sabre2
Joellercoaster replied to Sabrekakkonen's topic in Gear and Rigging
I would agree totally with Degeneration - I've jumped Odyssey 120, Crossfire2 119 and they are very similar - snappy turns, steep dives, quite a lot of oversteer, fair amount of care and feeding required on opening. Generally a hoot to fly at that loading (1.9ish) but can absolutely bite. A Sabre2 120 is a totally different beast... easier to fly straight and deal with on opening, slower to roll into and out of turns (though my swoopy friends claim they swoop really well, I couldn't really comment). Disclaimer: PD do not recommend loading them as high as I did, and indeed most of my jumps are on 135s at 1.7+. Very much a matter of taste? [edit: you asked about flatness of glide, I'd say the Odyssey flies flatter in a straight line. But once you start turning and diving, all bets are probably off.] -- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? -
This has been a very good thread with tons of good information from the experienced people out there. I'm not sure how much I can help here (after all I still am very much a newbie to this sport). But if we can get more people (myself included) to slow down and think about what they are doing with their canopy choices, then maybe a few less incidents will occur this summer. It looks like I am slightly bigger than NeedToJump (Ari), but I seemed to have followed a similar (fast) downsizing progression. - Triathlon 220 (50+ jumps) downsized to a Sabre2 190 at the right time. - Sabre2 190 (90+ jumps) downsized to a Sabre2 170 likely a little early, but not critical nor dangerous. - Sabre2 170 (220+ jumps) downsized to a Crossfire2 139 without truly maxing out the Sabre2 170. I learned a lot from my Sabre2 and was able to swoop great distances with it. My only beef with it was the short recovery arc (and for that I don't regret my Crossfire2 downsizing choice). But I will openly admit that I didn't learn everything I could have learned on that Sabre2 and did downsize sooner than I should have (all except that recovery arc issue). So now I am flying my Crossfire2 and I will admit that I have been tempted to buy one of my friend's Crossfire2 129 (and another friend has or had a 119 for sale as well). But I still have NOT mastered this canopy. To me maxing out a canopy and mastering a canopy are different beasts. I say this because there has been a number of swoops which I did well and believe I came close to maxing out the canopy's potential. But there have been other jumps where I have messed up (not dangerously ... knock on wood) and bleed off a lot of my speed due to numerous factors. So instead of thinking about all those good landings/swoops I may have had with this canopy, I still can't help but think about the times were I haven't efficiently piloted the canopy. So I can see myself on my current wing for many many moons to come. Like NeedToJump, I doubt you will see me on a x-braced canopy anytime soon as I still have four Crossfire2 canopy sizes to master before I ever think about flying a x-braced canopy. Oh and for what it's worth, my 2nd rig (it'll be my wingsuit rig) has a Spectre 150 in it (a canopy I'd love to get my PRO rating with). So not every jump I make is a jump where I am looking to swoop. We should be swooping for our own reasons and not swooping to try and impress other people. Unless your name is Clint Clawson (or one of the other PST guys/gals), there's always going to be someone at the DZs better than you. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
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I don't think anyone has addressed this in the thread yet so I'll have a go. The word "elliptical" is certainly a marketing term, so you should take it (and literally anything else you read in a canopy blurb that's not a technical spec or a hard jump number recommendation or a max weight) with a huge grain of salt. But! It does have some use as a term used by skydivers to classify canopies, so I'll have a go. Ram air canopies started off rectangular - and some of them still are: Navigator, Silhouette, Triathlon are all still made and still popular. Some people (including me sometimes) still jump the original Sabre, though it's not made any more. Colloquially, we call these "square". Then manufacturers discovered that if you tapered the ends, they would turn faster (and thus dive harder) and fly more efficiently, and maybe quicker through the air due to reduced drag. This is the "high performance" part of ellipticality. When tapered in a small way, this contributes mostly only good things to an otherwise square canopy - snappier turns, better glide and possibly flare (although it tends to make openings a little more wandery). Some manufacturers refer to these as "lightly elliptical" or "semi-elliptical", and they include wildly popular canopies such as the Sabre2, Pilot, Safire2/3, S-Fire, Spectre and many others. Confusingly, some manufacturers refer to things in this class as "elliptical" or even "fully elliptical", though it's not common. Tapering beyong this point keeps upping the performance factor in terms of speed and roll and agility, but now you are starting to pay for it. Quick to roll and dive can mean quick to get into trouble - and highly tapered canopies have a tendency to oversteer and/or stay diving once you stop pulling things. If you get cut off in the pattern under your aggressively tapered Mamba, you need to have your reflexes under control and not yank on a toggle to evade, or you might find yourself in a bad place you're too low to get out of again. They are also definitely more prone to bad behaviour on opening! Popular canopies in this class include the Stiletto, Mamba, Zulu, Crossfire2/3, Katana and X-Fire. This is what people generally mean when they say "fully elliptical", or simply "elliptical" for short. There are lots of different shapes in this class, but they all have a noticeable taper on one or both edges. NOTE: Some places have hard jump number requirements attached to canopies in this group, and for strong reasons. (All modern cross-braced canopies are, of course, fully elliptical. But those are a whole 'nother thing.) There is a lot of subtlety I'm missing out here - the models in my groups don't all fly alike and there are plenty or other factors involved, like steepness of trim, reliability of opening and recovery arc, that differentiate them. But, I hope this has answered your question about the word and how it's generally used, a little more directly. -- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?
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I've had a sabre2 for 2 years and was able to pretty much get on-heading openings as long as you steer the canopy on opening. I don't understand what the problem is with off-heading openings. Crossfire2 would be a step up from a sabre2. If you don't like the crossfire2 either I would suggest staying on the safire2 and go one size smaller? If swooping is your thing...go with a sabre2. If you don't like the openings on the sabre2...stay far away from the katana. The katana would be a nice choice if you already learned some skills under a sabre2 loaded at around 1.5. The katana is a step up from a crossfire2. _______________________________________
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The no BS Honest swooping poll
CanuckInUSA replied to Darius11's topic in Swooping and Canopy Control
Swooping is fun. But it is also unforgiving of the errors that many of us will make at some point in our skydiving careers. If we are honest with ourselves in respect to our experience in the sport, our knowledge in canopy control (and seek more coaching when needed), are honest with our own risk tolerance levels and realize that none of us is immune from injury and/or death, then swooping is something that we can participate in, in a reasonably safe manner. But the important thing is to realize that swooping takes hundreds and hundreds of jumps on each canopy we jump before we move on to the next (smaller ... more elliptical ... or even cross-braced) canopy. And once we move on to a new canopy, we must realize that we need to start from scratch in terms of learning the performance characteristics of the new canopy and be patient with ourselves. All it takes is one moment of poor decision making (or worse being in the wrong place at the wrong time for whatever reason), to end it all. I'm about to tell you about my canopy progession which in some people's eyes will be aggresive, but not nearly as aggresive as others which often get's the canopy nazi's attention. Also keep in mind that my exit weight is in the 210 lb range and I do jump at 5000 MSL (meaning I come in fast and don't have much air to flare with, so you may understand why I jump the canopy sizes I do while some others jump smaller canopies). Now I was a licensed private pilot before I became a skydiver. So I was used to the sight picture of landing a wing. For my first 40 jumps, I used student/rental gear ranging in the student F-111 290 sizes down to rental ZP 210 canopies. On jump #40 through the next 50 jumps I was on a Triathlon 220 which I never really did much with except work on my accuracy and consitency with my flair. I did do some front riser work up high, but in retrospective I never did swoop with that canopy. Then on jump #90 through jump #175 I was jumping a Sabre2 190. It was on this canopy that I received my first canopy control coaching and did my first 90 degree front riser swoops (after receiving my canopy control coaching). In many respects, I should have stayed on this canopy longer, but I didn't. I downsized to a Sabre2 170. And it was on my Sabre2 170 that I learned to swoop. I did double fronts, I did 90s and 180s. I understood the recovery arc, but like any quick recovering canopy, I didn't push it because I knew my setup was low. I put 225 jumps on that canopy before I decided to move on to my first elliptical and it was on this canopy (the 170) that I came the closest (knock on wood) to pounding in. Fortunately I was on a large enough canopy that gave me some forgiveness as if I had made the same mistake I made on a smaller canopy, I likely would have femured or even worse. Anyway after 225 jumps on the Sabre2 170, I downsized again. Did I downsize too fast ... again? In reality the answer is yes. But I did so because I felt that my fast recovering Sabre2 canopy wasn't helping develop beyond the point that I found myself in. So on jump #400 I started to jump a Crossfire2 139. It was on this canopy that I did my first 270s with. In retrospective I was doing my 180s and 270s too low. Now it's not like I was constantly digging myself out, but I wasn't letting the canopy recover the way it can recover and part of this was becaused I didn't know any better and none of the more experienced jumpers around me really said much. I put another 225 jumps on this Crossfire2 139 and was pretty current with it. So after spending one long 4 day weekend last year in Eloy (feeling very current), I called up a friend who was selling his Crossfire2 119 canopy and bought his. And it was on this wing that I really began to learn the potential of this canopy. It was on this wing that I got swoop at sea level (wow jumping at altitude sucks) and it was on this canopy where I received my latest high performance canopy control coaching. The information I received about swooping after this latest batch of coaching was ... simply priceless. Coaching means everything when it comes to canopy control. Without it, we are really just guessing how to control our canopy's through trial and error. But with the added coaching, I no longer am a trial by error type of canopy pilot. Because a world class swooper has shown me how to find the performance characteristics of my canopy and he has armed with many tricks to add to my tool box in order to keep my canopy within it's performance envelop. The rest is now up to me to put the knowledge I've been given into use, to know my limits and be patient with my progression from here on out. So now I'm about to start the latest chapter in my canopy progression. During the Eloy Holiday boogie, two very experienced swoopers (one a former PST jumper) made identical yet independent comments about my swoops as they watched me. Both said that they thought I would be better off (and reasonably safe) under a cross-braced canopy. I originally was going to order a custom Velocity 103. But after I found out that it would take 4 months to make (not the 2 I thought it would take), I thought shit I won't be starting to jump this cross-braced canopy until May which means higher density altitude conditions and less time to learn this canopy before the hot summer months are here and the swooping competition circuit heats up. I could have stayed on my Crossfire2 119 from now until the fall (not a bad choice), but instead I decided to pick up a stock Velocity canopy and given myself five months to learn it before the summer arrives, to start off slow with it and to slowly start pushing myself on it until I get to the point to where I am now on my Crossfire. Plus I will be looking to seek more advance canopy control coaching with the Velocity once I learn the basics with it and learn it's performance envelop (by playing up high with it). So here I am, with a Velocity 111 in my possesion and ready to jump this weekend. And I chose the 111 size over the 103 because not only do I jump in high density altitude conditions, but I can always wear weight when I want to increase my wing loading (like when I visit DZs at sea level). Now If I crater because of stupidity, I only have myself to blame. But I do believe that while I have been somewhat aggresive with my canopy progression, I have also sought canopy control coaching, I will continue to seek coaching as I progess, I think I'm in tune with my personal skill, my knowledge and my risk assement limits. It's all about choices. If you want to become a swooper, then talk to the more experienced swoopers around you and set out a plan to get you to achieve your goals. But don't forget that the plan takes time to realize. None of the world class swoopers are people who just started yesterday. They are people with experience, with knowledge and are current with the canopies they fly. PS: If I ever find myself uncurrent on my new Velocity 111, keep in mind that I have many other canopies to choose from. I still own my Crossfire2 (I will ultimately sell it), I own a Samurai 136 (my interim Ground Launching canopy), I have a Spectre 150 (my canopy for wingsuit jumps) and I have a big 293 BASE canopy and another 303 BASE canopy being made as we speak. So I have choices towards how I want to fly my canopies and each choice will depend on the environment in which I jump, my experience and my currency. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over -
How aggressively did you down size?
YvonneWiggers replied to Nerra's topic in Swooping and Canopy Control
I am a bit of a lightweight at 57kg, about 150lbs out the door. My progression so far: 1-40: 235 down to a 185 student canopy. 40-90: Sabre 170 at 0.9 90-140: Silhouette/Sabre/Sabre2 150 at 1.0 140-350: Sabre/Sabre2 135 at 1.1 350-650: Sabre2 120 at 1.25 650- now: Crossfire2 109 at a bit less than 1.4 According to the Dutch canopy rules my downsizing is (way) too aggressive, which I don't agree with. This is partially because those rules restrict mostly on sizes and not so much on wingload, it is also not that common here to do more than 200 jumps a year (as I do). "So I jump out, look up, and think 'Oh SHIT!... It's PINK!!!'" - army guy after his first staticline jump -
How aggressively did you down size?
Shivinski replied to Nerra's topic in Swooping and Canopy Control
Jumps | Canopy | Wing Loading 0-21 | Student 260-240 | 0.85 22-45 | Safire2 189-149 | 1.05 46-90 | Spectre 170 | 1.05 91-134 | ZP.Exe 150 | 1.15 135-240 | Sabre2 135 | 1.35 241-300 | Stiletto 120 | 1.5 301-590 | Crossfire2 104 | 1.65 591-850 | Katana 97 | 1.85 850+ | Comp Velocity 84 | 2.15 The biggest and scariest jump by far was between the Crossfire and Katana, 7sq/ft but a completely different beast the Katana is much more like my Comp Velo now than anything else. Started induced speed landings at around 150 jumps (straight in's then onto 90's). First 270 was on the Crossfire at around 340 jumps. Since then most landings where the airspace is clear have been 270s. -
Well, I'm not sure how accurate Aerodyne's formula for "Planform Factor" is when used to determine canopy handling characteristics, but they advertise the PF of the Zulu at 10.0, so you can see where it fits on this matrix of other known canopies. Pf N Springo 110 28.0 8 cells tapered Crossfire2 21.6 8 cells tapered Safire2 16.4 8 cells tapered Vision 124 15.5 6 cells tapered Stiletto 120 13.3 4 cells tapered Diablo 120 10.7 4 cells tapered Electra 150 9.5 4 cells tapered Pilot 124 6.7 4 cells tapered Sabre2 120 5.4 6 cells tapered This would be the Zulu 172, loaded at 1.4...
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So now for my 20 cents ... visor: as you use a G3.. my experience is that it is not unusual for this helmet to fog the visor. I removed all liners in the front/mouth area, still foggy in cold/humid conditions. even anti-fog spray doesn´t make any spectacular changes (maybe I should use the alcohol advice for cleaning, I just used alcohol in a different way ..) my solution is to open it up during linestretch (Crossfire2) or right after checking the airspace before doing something else... but I suppose on a ride like this, you think about everything else than just to open the visor .. canopy: you fly the Skylark one? "Odyssey – modern 9-cell fully eliptical high performance canopy. Recommended only for experienced canopy pilots!" So much for the thoughts what happens with swing/shifting weight in harness, symmetry, .. Saw your cutaway with the Sabre2, similar twist but more forgiving .. RSL: can´t provide any input here, except that I only know it with the tab towards the jumper, not towards the riser.. again something new to learn and take care of .. the canopy ride (my pov): If I would pitch at 1000 meters, the opening wouldn´t be finished at 800 meters. but I fly a Crossie .. 0:25 > symmetrical risers, no tension knots visible 0:30 > twists in right steering line visible 0:31 > on the left side also why important? twists in steeringlines contribute to tension knots solution: untwist them 0:31 > you grab both risers on the left side (not only the rears) 0:34 > pull the right rear, not both .. 0:36 > release of right toggle speeds up rotation you stated to know most of those issues, that´s the good part. improvement: review your packing method may help. seeing that linetwists are not uncommon to you, keep in mind that a highperformance elliptical puts you faster into trouble. untwist your steering lines after every jump if neccessary. take a canopy course if you didn´t have it already, focus on flying HP canopies (not focus on landings only ..) practice riserturns on hop-n-pops to get familiar with that on the Odyssey (should come with the canopy course). try everything to ensure the visor to be not foggy again talk to an experienced rigger about that RSL issue, might save your life. pitch higher. get toggles in contrasting color. Note: this is my personal view and not the ultimate wisdom. maybe I saw something wrong due to the quality of the youtubevid or to the lack of coffee .. glad you survived and good that you be so open to discuss. I guess at round 800 jumps, I wouldn´t have done that because I was the best in the world those days ... and immortal of course ... -------------------------------------------------- With sufficient thrust, pigs just fly well
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Okay let's forget that AJ asked this question and pretend that someone else asked it. Having owned and flown a Sabre2 190, a Sabre2 170, a Crossfire2 139 and a Crossfire2 119, I'll bite on this one. First off we know that Sabre2s are awesome canopies which can easily be swooped by any competent canopy pilot (remembering it's the pilot and not the canopy). But we on these forms have debated this topic on numerous occasions. What is safer? The canopy with a shorter recovery arc (Sabre2) or the longer recovery arc (Crossfire2) and unless I'm mistaken, the consensus was that there is more time to react to things on the canopy with the longer recovery arc. So which one is better for the (shall I say intermediate) canopy pilot with swooping aspirations? My guess is the Crossfire2 is better. But we're all different and what might work for one canopy pilot may not work for another. I still think based on his current experience level that AJ would be better off on a Sabre2 150. But will he really be better off? I don't know him that well and I've only seen one of his landings. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
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Ever since I was a baby skydiver running around the dropzone sucking my thumb and having candy stolen from me by the big bad freefliers I have been one to ask questions of everyone I could find. I would ask the instructors of course, I would ask the skygods (well, really they'd just hear me ask someone else and come over and tell me what was right), and I would ask the people in my peer experience group hoping that they might have gotten good information from someone else. I would then take all of the different opinions, references, agreements, disagreements, and snide remarks, jumble them around in what remains of my brain (thank you high school poor life decisions) and form my belief and go with it. Usually it's easy to weed through the bullshit and recognize the DGITs and DGIT like advice, but this weekend I was presented with some information that borders on disturbing and I want to run it by the infinite wisdom that this community has to offer and see if my concerns are founded OR if I was passed on some advice that, though sounding ridiculous, is in fact valid. I have begun the first step in downsizing. I have completed all of the requirements many times over on the "Do this before downsizing or you will undoubtedly die a horrible death... probably not from skydiving, but that's irrelevant" list... or whatever it's called. My next step is to decide which direction to go, do I stay with my current planform and buy a Sabre2 150 or do I demo a Sabre2 150 for several jumps, get comfortable with the downsize, and buy a Katana 150 as swooping and ultimately expensive handkerchiefs, very thin string, long yonkle lines, and a broken ankle or two are my goal. I presented this quandary to a fellow skydiver while at the Keys Boogie (sucks if you weren't there... it was awesome) who was more than happy to discuss my future nylon choices and as he is a Velocity pilot with many years of swooping under his belt, I felt that he had the potential to be a good source of information. His response was that my best next step would be to jump a Stiletto 150 based on the fact that the Sabre2 and the Stiletto are similar canopies in that the Stiletto is an elliptical modification of the Sabre1 so I will find, though more responsive and touchy, some similar flight characteristics to my Sabre2 making the transition easier and (I think he was hinting at) safer. At this point in the conversation, I was still with him but countered explaining that I do not want to be starting my turn as low as I need to on my Sabre2 and as low as I have witnessed Stiletto pilots have to for their swoop, which is why I am considering a Katana. I recognize it's a faster, more ground hungry canopy but requires more altitude to complete the turn, that makes me think that it gives more time to notice the corner and bail out of it if it's there. (Also Icarus folks, don't get your panties in a bunch, I will be demoing the Crossfire2 as well). Here is where he lost me. The conversation then switched to "there is almost no difference between a Stiletto 150 and a Velocity 120 and that would be your next step". Exqueeze me... baking powder... It sounded like you just said I should downsize from a Stiletto 150 to a Velocity 120 because they have similar flight characteristics. At this point, I discovered I was on a now call and did not know where my altimeter, parachute, or dignity from last night were so I bailed. Never got a chance to finish the conversation, so I thought I'd write a novel to you guys and for those of you still with me... what are your thoughts. -R PS - if the person who I had this conversation with would like to weigh in as well, that would be great. In no way was i trying to ridicule you in this post, but the more I think about the conversation, the more I question that particular canopy progressions merit. Please prove me wrong, I just want to learn! There is an art, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss. Pick a nice day and try it. -- Douglas Adams
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The Sabre2 is an awesome swooping canopy. My only beef with my old Sabre2 was it's relatively quick recovery arc. But I have video of myself out swooping a similarily loaded Samurai. So instead of remarking that this canopy is too slow, maybe you should change your approach styles to get more speed out of it instead of thinking that the only way to generate speed is to downsize. I'm not going to comment on whether or not, this is too aggressive (for fear that canopy nazis will step in). But I have a Crossfire2 139 loaded at a fraction under 1.6:1 and I love this canopy. I started flying it at jump #401 and have since made 74 jumps on it and have done well in the thin air of Colorado. Once again changing your approach types (when traffic permits) instead of downsizing right away will give you some added speed and might even scare you. In other words, it wasn't until I started doing 270s that I started noticing that I was able to out swoop my old Sabre2 with the Crossfire2. This is hypocritical as I did not max out my Sabre2 before moving on to my Crossfire2, but one really should max out a canopy before one downsizes. And based on your comments, you have not maxed out your canopies. But at the same time, you will like the Crossfire2 if you decide on getting one and Icarus does recommend loading the Crossfire2 some where between 1.4:1 and 2.0:1 (of course the canopy can be flown at a lower wing loading). Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
