fcajump

You've got the idea correct as to cause, though in my (limited) experiences, the spandex pouch makes the mess extractable (though hard) while the cordura (in my case) made it impossible. YMMV JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

(Oops.. thanks for the spelling... yes Talon.) That's most of what we had when/where I started. Converted to BOC myself ~15 years back. Actually my experience was the opposite of your description. It was because the pilot chute was not held snug along its length that it was able to bunch up. And once bunched up behind that neck of elastic, the harder you pulled to worse it got. Mind you, I do believe it all started with the method of folding. I have yet to be able to pack a mess in a spandex that I could not extract... but then I'm also not trying to very often However, you may be onto another minor contributing factor... Your BOC cordura is held snug by the container. My ROL cordura was not... the rest of the pouch was not ultra loose... but not firm either... only tight at the neck to keep it from getting loose prematurely. JW PS - one thing I will agree on. Spandex does wear out and should be kept in good repair/replaced. Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

What is it about a spandex pouch that you think makes it immune compared to a cordura pouch? I've never seen an example of a PC that couldn't be easily extracted, it might be worthwhile if we discuss what it actually takes to make it happen. The difference isn't in the ability to fold it wrong, its in the ability to pry a badly folded pc from the more giving spandex. Since this discussion came up, I've been trying to remember how we packed them prior to my reserve ride... But there was (IS) a way in which it can bunch up to the point of not being easily dislodged from the pouch... I'll see if I can recreate it on the ground sometime... but believe me, at pull time when it won't come out, you quickly decide that a change is needed like fast. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Nope, not a tandem canopy. Not designed as one. Remember that while a similar size as some modern tandem canopies, it was F111 and not the modern wing designs. Not a bad Student canopy (when new). I flew them in both my static line and freefall rigs as a student. Along with the XL cloud and DC5. Always wanted to get my hands on one again. Jw Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Unfortunately as much I would like to report back the fine details of a rigger's analysis... this one goes into the unknown bucket... I was a newer jumper working with new rental gear. As there we were on a rush call, an instructor finished closing the rig for me and packed the PC. Then once on the ground, as you indicated you've seen before, the young jumper (me) and an instructor from the DZ failed to take the rig to the rigger for analysis of the cause... o-well. My log book doesn't specify the rig brand, but I think the DZ was using Tallens with the PC pouch being ROL. (initially Cordura then converted to spandex) The problem was a pack method that caused the material to bunch up... beyond that, I don't know. I fully expect that the pack method was the initial cause, but we speculated then and I believe to this day that had the material been spandex, I could have gotten it out... but maybe not. Also, while I don't have them in front of me to compare, I would hassen to point out that manufacturers have refined/improved their designs considerably. This was on a 1990/91 rig. Immediately after that I went to my own rigger who showed me a fold/stow method I have used ever since that wont bunch when extracted by the handle. It is only now (almost 20 years later) that I've started looking at new methods, primarily based on Brian Germain's technique to enable clean extraction by either the handle (normal deployment) or by bridle (in the event of a horseshow mal.) See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axCeYlY_6io JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

How's that binder work for you? I've got a traditional Paragear special... Looks like the one you have would free up the workspace in front of the foot a bit... JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

This brings up something I wish someone would create for us... an archive of things tried and why we later discarded them... With the pullout vs throwout, we at least have the design fairly well documented and those one each side that can discuss from experience what the issues are with each. Many here could quickly discuss the potentially fatal consequences of a misrouted bridle (of either pull or throw variety). But... Why are PC bridles typically a flat webbing not 550 cord? Why is the reserve high on the back, not low? Why do modern systems use a split harness (and have the "hole") versus a "sling" harness? Why not put the throw-out PC on a strap on the front of your rig where you can find it easier... maybe on a belly band...? Two words: Tape-wells? OK, so there are many here (including myself) who can answer why many of these were abandoned. But I would like to see, maybe as part of the Parachute Museum, an illustrated list of things once tried and what the general experiences were. It does happen that bad designs are revisited. When the next generation tries it again, at least they should have the opportunity to make new mistakes rather than repeat old (fatal) mistakes. And aren't we glad that some old/bad/deadly concepts are sometimes revisited by new folks who can learn from the past and improve without having to relearn/repeat old mistakes... can you say "Birdmen"? (sure... I knew you could ) Now all we need is an older jumper, retired (with lots of time on his hands), who is very familiar with the old gear and its evolution who can document this stuff... (oh Jerry... ) JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

There are... not sure if the ones I've known are on DiZzy and not sure of the experiences here... so the question... Remember, just because you are in a downplane, doesn't mean all is lost, just that you might want to take action prior to landing. Additionally, the recent student situation (as reported) does include survival of a downplane. Thanks! JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Understand. Understood... and you are correct. Unfortunately that is true of most typed communication (and even with face-2-face comms). JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

out of curiosity - why does it matter ? Because it is useful when composing a meaningful reply and/or referring people to possible solutions to know who they are, what their background is, where they are located, etc... Such as, if I knew this individual was in western SC, I would immediately refer them to MEL... PA, DeWolf, etc... If they're in Israel these people could still help via internet, but RIGGER (Slomo) would be better able to look at the machine. On this type of site, it is one of the common courtesies with which new members might not be familiar. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

I have seen a couple that flew as biplane (including mine), and have discussed with an individual that had one transition (on its own) to a down-plane*. What's your experience? JW *we got a bit of a laugh at the coincidence... he was experiencing this two-out turned emergency at the same time many of the rest of us were attending a "what to do if you have a double deployment" seminar at the PIA symposium 10 miles away... Guess our class should have taken a field trip Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

There is at least on fatality that I can think of where the jumper went in under a spinner (extremely small canopy from 14k)... common belief was that he blacked out from the G's. Under a normal small canopy, dunno... JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Yea... UTP folks know the PD canopies very well... the companies are so close, their owners have to share the same first name Both great companies with good products whether used together or with other companies products. Advice here is free and worth every penny, but a call to the mfg is always a good final step. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

There are other uses for a packing paddle than making a fold. However per the pic, it would appear to be how it was being used when left... Flags, larger tools (still be appropriate to the task), and check lists all help. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

For all that is said about this generation of jumpers (what's wrong with kids these day)... I've got to say that many have embraced the idea of confession of sins being good not only for the soul, but also for keeping others from making the same mistake. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

I thought about asking this privately, but thought someone else might benefit from the discussion. When PRO packing first came out, I heard that the danger was that one "could easily pack a line-over". So I flat packed for 10 years until I got my first ZP. Then I learned to PRO pack, and was shown some tips along the way that aid in one way or another. But mostly I keep doing what I always did, hoping to get what I've always gotten... (OK its not always pretty, but its always worked well ) However, the one thing I've never seen (knock wood), is what the bad thing(s) is (are) that causes a line over in a PRO pack. And (knock wood), I've yet to do that bad thing... So... esplain!!! Several gray hairs out there say that they know the wrong thing when they see it... So, how can we see the wrong thing when it is right there in front of us... what are the rest of us lookin' for... - please fill in this gap - JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Nice touch. I keep them filed with the rig's spec sheet in my customer files myself. But I like that too. JW

My first mal was a hard pull from a Cordura pouch (two of us, standing on the ground, played tug-of-war to remove it from the pouch afterward... that sucker was not going anywhere...) I can't speak to how it was packed as an instructor had packed it for me... (last time that happened...) To the DZO's credit (IMHO), by the next Saturday, all student rigs were converted to Spandex. Like many things, Spandex pouches must be inspected and maintained to remain safe. I've seen people keep jumping with worn-out pouches, and one who had the potential to have his PC come out of a hole in the pouch. This is not unlike continuing to jump with worn out velcro, elastic, lines, Slinks, closing loops or anything else that should be replaced (including the whole rig). I am not saying that Cordura pouches are death waiting to happen, and Spandex/Spandura have their limits. But I've not seen a undeployable hard-pull from a properly maintained pouch made from these fabrics. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

During my Sr. course, in the interest of teaching you to resist distractions and not assume that an interrupted job was as you left it, some of the instructors would sneak tools/etc into unattended rigs that were in the middle of being serviced. Most of us managed to keep our rigs from being messed with. Some had a wrench or paddle "dropped" to the rig once and learned the lessen. One student not only ended up with most of his tools in his unattended rigs at various points, but after finishing one interrupted pack job, later found his log book in the rig. He eventually got the point... but it took a while. To this day, I use a tool checklist and do not let rigs leave my loft until I can account for all tools/weights/books/etc... JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

One airport I visit had an interesting hanger system for emergency rigs, though they should work fine for sport rigs too... They had mounted an iron pipe (with pipe base fittings, to wall studs) similar to a hanger pole in a cloths closet... Before hanging the pole they had threaded onto it several rig hangers (see attachment) made of 3/4" plywood and heavily varnished. (You wouldn't necessarily need the stylized cross bar that makes it look like an anchor.) Worked VERY well, and they also had a place to hang up jump/flight suits and jackets on normal hangers next to their rigs. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

First - Before sending money to the seller of any used gear, get YOUR rigger (or the factory) to inspect it on your behalf. Will cost you a bit up front, but will often save you a lot in the long run. http://www.chutingstar.com/usedgear_en http://www.sunshine-factory.com/store/home.php?cat=34 Call the manufacture's of the gear you want, sometimes they have used stuff for sale. Classifieds here on DiZzy (I've got a pair of larger Jav systems, complete for sale in the classifieds if you're interested.) When you are getting desperate... you can call Ralph. He has most everything... but various people have reported different levels of satisfaction. Ebay* - remember what I said about inspections before sending money, it counts triple if you are thinking about buying off EBay. I have, and I've gotten some good stuff. I have also had many people bring their "great find" from EBay to my shop, and often what they've bought were somewhere between "crap" and "death waiting a plane to happen". Also, when you buy new the harness/container is usually made for your body size/shape as much as to fit your canopies. Make sure your used gear fits properly too. The good news here is, if the container fits the canopies, a re-harness (custom sized) is not too expensive (~$250) JW Master Rigger Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

SS aint cheep... but there are cheaper prices around... If memory serves, I went with this brand setter: http://www.csosborne.com/ Don't remember if I bought it direct or through a reseller. You do need to verify that you are getting one intended for SS. You'll ruin a normal setter with SS grommets. Seattle fabrics also sells this setter. http://www.seattlefabrics.com/gromsnap.html#C.S.%20Osborne%20Spur%20Grommet%20Setter Also, make sure you get the one for Spur grommets. Remember that Leather and Sail/Boating supply shops carry many of the hardware items that we use. Just be careful to get like parts when going to outside vendors... you a little bit on your own there... JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Yea... I'd stay away from that myself... My rig is similar to Wendy's. While I hate to admit it, I'm not sure I would have forseen his outcome, though in retrospect it seems clearly obvious... I would suggest being very careful when doing intentionals with that rig that you don't get into a two-out situation. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

To ensure we're talking about the same things: FXC 12000: http://www.paragear.com/templates/parachutes.asp?group=140&t2parent=5&parent=19&level=3 Older unit, pin puller, mechanical. Control unit generally (that I've seen) mounted on the Mud-flap. Must be removed/serviced every 2 years. Pin Puller's are subject to failure if pin is bent or other wise a too hard-pull. We were always told to allow a cushion zone of 1000'-1500' above the firing altitude due to the inprecision of the unit. (BTW - I would not expect this to be unaffected by water immersion. Water and mechanical bario's don't get along well.) FXC Astra: http://www.fxcguardian.com/astrindx.htm "Modern" AAD. Introduced around the same time as the Cypres. (It was not considered as precise as the cypres by the local community at the time, and honestly I've not followed it much.) Was used as the AAD of choice to ensure the deployment of Former President Bush's AFF main canopy. (I understand that a Cypres was used on his reserve...) Can't speak to any water protection. Cypress II - #1 Market choice. Service every 4, replace every 12. Anecdotally the least errant behavior of the modern AAD's on the market (by number of problems per number of units in the field). Designed to survive brief immersion in water. (field replaceable part required afterward... requires openning the reserve, but then you did just get your rig very wet...) JW PS - guess which one I have . Not saying its perfect... just seems to be the best option for the money. Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Condolances for her (and you.) Wendy mentioned that her cameraman was able to stay with her intentional downplane. Wonder if the speed is such that this skydiver was still somewhat belly to earth due to terminal velocity wind/air-resistance? Or, is it possible that the "formation" of the two canopies was transitioning/unstable enough to be bouncing her from position to position (belly/back/etc)? Thanks for your input. JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...