RayLosli

crwpj if only there were some way these students could get the MESSAGE about this PERSONAL issue you have. hmm,... hmm,... . Yes Is this not the reason people respond to posts and Threads ? because people have different points of view ? If Everything was agreed upon when writen & when Posted on a Public Forum. Then everything would be to Lovey-dovey wouldn't it ? You make Personal Issue with my points of view on the way I think Students should voice themselves. Therefore you make Your Personal Issue by response to me. Is this not true ? The Students that are Publicly Complaining of Bad DZO student training. Are trying to voice a message of Personal Issue. Are they not ? - Just because people think I am a hard-ass on my View. They make personal response. My View (personal issue) Is that Students in Training are not held hostage by the DZ they are honing there skills at. Student skydivers are only held hostage by there Personal Needs an Wants. There need and want to become experienced enough to Pick and Chose were they want to Skydive at any time they wish. This is the core of why a Students desires Training. If this is the ONLY DZ that they have to go. Then maybe they should Suck It Up a little till they able & can leave the DZ and there PERSONAL ISSUE with the DZO and his student safety training. If there is another Dz They can take there business to force change is the better in my Personal Issue. Rather than public crucifixion of a DropZone & Un-Safe Training safety in a public forum for all to see. That is all I am trying to say. So I am sorry if what I said possibly angers you. Please feel free to Post your Personal Issue in a response/post. .

andy: It's not always easy to figure out what the hell you're trying to say, but I'll give it a whirl. Are you trying to say that Back In The Day dropzones, equipment & student programs were less safe than they are today? The fact that jumping as a student when we were noobs was less safe than it is today doesn't in any way excuse any DZ today which treats its student in an unsafe way. - You might have been a, Noobs. but as a student. I know I was a Bigger noob than you for sure. I know that gear and training have progressed. Things might have been a little less safe for you (back in the day) -BUT- I got a funny feeling that you like others. even though unhappy at times with your DZO. Did more Jumping. Than Whining and Crying. I'm not saying it's OK for a DZO to walk on it's Students. I know this is Bad. I am all for students safety. . . andy: "we had an asshole DZO who treated novice jumpers shitty ." - Then what are you to do ? How did you handle it ? Did you call everyone you know in the Skydive community and tell them your DZO sucked-ass ? Did you call the FAA and tell them your problems ? Or maybe. Did you Grab any Rig you could get your hands on. Pack and Jump, then Pack and Jump, Pack and Jump again. Every chance you had till something better came along.? Or Did you Quit or temporarily give up Skydiving ? . . andy; I've read your posts in this thread, and also read the way you just raged and raged at those criticizing "that other DZ" in the related thread (This one: http://www.dropzone.com/...post=1868070#1868070) I have to tell you, I find your agenda puzzling. - Yes I would say it bothered me what was being said in that last thread. Even though I am in favor for proper safety for Students. It is True. I did -RAG- on them for pushing there homeDZ as a messed-up Safety hazard in public. I just have a hard time seeing it on there level. I also have a hard time seeing That there DZ is as bad as they talked about it being. I would say that I was more upset with them crucifying there home DZ in Public. Than there act of self-preservation and What to do about it. I am about being safe but I guess everyone has a different threshold inside him. I guess I am just weird and F##ked-up because I never was bothered by any DZ's business practices. When I was a student and learning to skydive. I was there for the same reason I am at any DZ today. To Skydive. Any DZ. What ever plane is going-up. I am getting on it To Skydive. . . andy: ...By the way, that same middle-sized DZ had 4 fatalities in 2 years, including 1 novice jumper who in my opinion went in because he wasn't supervised adequately. That DZ is no longer in business, and the DZ which sort of "replaced" it is a damn fine DZ run by great people. - That's kind of the way I am thinking. The example you Quote for that DZ's safety record is BAD. There is always going to be different levels of DZ quality out there. It's free-enterprise out there. If you can Scrounge up a piece of aircraft, some gear & a place to park it all. You got a DZ started. Every DZ owner has a different (view) of What his DZ standards will be. I have always felt that a DZ is more a reflection of the owner that it's Jumpers by far. Like your statement says. The DZ was shit and was gone & out of Business. Then it was replaced by a damn fine DZ run by great people. If this DZ that is being crucified publicly for not taking care of it's students is that Bad. Then It to will be. Out of Business. then replaced. ( I have always felt ) Things like that have a way of taking care of themselves. The way those students in the other thread are doing it publicly. May be there way to solve there issues. For me it's Not and that is just a personal issue that I have. Is Student training all about making the Student Skydiver safe ? YES. Is it for the Student Skydiver to decide what is safe for his/her. to become a Skydiving ? YES. Is it all about Making Every Student Skydiver that walks through the DZO's doors Happy ? NO . . Basically I guess, what I am trying to say is . If you want to learn to Skydive. I feel you should Pack it up. Get on the Plane and Jump. Then Pack It Up and Do it again. If you want to CRY about your HomeDZ. Don't crucify them in public. Go Jump Somewhere Else. Give them your Money and Time. Things Will take care of themselves and change will be made by doing just that one single action. .

Wow, Most of the Posts on this Thread are from Skydivers who have way over twice as many years in Skydiving as myself. Councilman, Johnrich, Nickdg, sundevil, wendy, crwpj, andy908. I got to know the truth. As Students learning to skydive. I got to know the truth about something. Did you -Feel Safe ? Did you feel mistreated as Students ? Some of you guys/gals, 20-30-40 years. Looking back with what you know now and Today in 2005 with the BIG advantages of all the New Gear and HUGE Advances made in Training Students ? Did you feel -Maybe- you Didn't have it so good as a Student getting trained-up and learning to Skydive back then ? What did you do when NOT getting the Personal Attention. You as a new Student Deserved ? Maybe you complained about the wind conditions. You might have been put-out-on as a students under Rounds ? Or maybe. As a Student. Did you whine and cry when you were. Told to Pack-Up the Rig you just finished Jumping ? -Even Though- you might not have been as Confident in your skills as a new Student Skydiver ? Did you Guys ever experience or Fear as Students Mechanical problems with a Plane. Or experience Problems on the Runway or Maybe even in the Air ? . Because From the way you guys talk. I Find it REALLY Hard to believe that Student Skydiving was all that FUN and Sure as hell could not have been safe being a Student Skydiver back then.... You must of had a lot of Complaining to do to ? To the DZ owners or each other. I know you had no DZ.com to voice all your Safety concerns. So maybe you just reported all your Safety Concerns as Students to the FAA or the USPA when you got Pissed-Off with poor safety coditions as a student ? .

cbrnick: "If you freeclimb it with a rig on your back, im not sure what commands more respect from me. The fact you jumped it or the fact you freeclimbed it..." ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, It will be a COLD day In HELL, when you catch me FreeClimbing that HUGE Dust-Pile. I did not pull lead on setting those Ropes. I only Tagged Along. By Jugging up behind with my gear and once with some extra rope for a pitch. The real Bad Asses that deserve Credit for me being able to go to the Top is Lee & Chad P. On one day we left all Jumping Gear Tied and secure on the 3rd pitch. It made the climb to the Top a breeze to haul-ass up to the top and jump the Next Day. . I did see some interesting & skilled Climbing while we were on the way to the top the 1st day. I did see a Climber do the beginning bolt-ladder and free climb the chimney to the 2nd pitch we were at a couple times. I could not help be notice he was having a little difficulty towards the top of the dusty and crumbling Chimney. When I saw him use His -FACE- as well as Hands and Feet to make a Hold and not Fall Off..... . After watching all the fun He was having. I decided. That's Not for me my friend. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, cbrnick: ..."And obviously you have to climb to the top, so what do you do with all the climbing gear you use to get there?" . It's not as hard as it Sounds. You just wear your Jacket and Climbing Harness. Then put all you hardware inside an oversize Fanny-Pack and strap that on. Then pit your Rig on over that. then Jump. I Hauled all the gear Like Rigs, Protective Hard Gear,. Water etc. On a simple Personal Pull set-up behind me. With a Tib-loc & Beener and some 6mm line. Fixed to the 11mm that I Jugged up on the first half of the climb. If a fat, old & lazy basterd like myself could do it. You will have NO problems. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I bet the view is fucking awsome from up there :) . The View and the Jump was Worth the Wait and the work to get there. Also the Signing of the Log-Book on the top is pretty cool too. There are NOT that many #'s of BASE Jumpers in that book ahead of US. I felt pretty Lucky that day. .

Ahhh is see, RL is you...Me so-Dumb ! He must be looking some Intelligent conversation then. Or Possibly Needs a little - Girl Talk - maybe new fashion colors or Shoes...... .

Hey how's your phantom ? Treating you well I hope ? . I most likely will be doing some 182 Hop & pops with mine to get used to it. Is F##King Cold @ higher altitude right now.

Note: Yes RL, I am knocking them! ...... dude are you talkig to me / dont get it ??? .

I actually never took a test jump or even saw the Phantom WS before buying. I only read the flight numbers and the Feed-Back. The Formed and padded leading edge of the Wings & the Shoulder Vents I read about in the feed-back sounded nice. But It really never came to light until I saw it and put on the WS. WAY-F##king COOL design. Also the Flat bottom skin of the wings in relationship to the Body/Torso of the WS. I can hardly wait to climb Out the Door with that thing. I can feel the Anxiety building..... .

MUD pile ! Ya for-sure that is a pile of Mud. That think is SICK SOFT not rock @ all. After the 4th pitch then the free-hanging Jug with all my gear on my back. I tied myself up to this ledge and took a Leak. before starting on the next Pitch. ( No BS ) dude. I could SMELL the FEAR in my Urine..... Dex. thanks for the Lesson in Climbing. It was defiantly worth all the work. .

I think you can see why I'm still smiling..... . thanks, DEX & LEE Chad still had a big smile on his face from Moab last night. I could see it in Free-Fall as I was looking up........ .

johnRich Oh my god! That's the final straw! How dare they risk their student's lives with something so dangerous! ,,,,,,,,,, Ya but don't forget you were Raised on Rounds with a Round Reserve. They were the Standard of Safety..... I came into skydiving when Squares were becoming the accepted norm of Safety. with Round reserves as the Standard practice for students. Velosity96, came in when it was Square on Square as the standard of Safety for learning students. You know how to survive on a Round.& I was taught to handle a Round and have had a few Round Reserve rides. today in 2005 Rounds are never even taught or mentioned. Basically it the only the accepted Norm. for pilot bail-out Rigs. (don't you know ?) Today in Skydiving Round Canopy's are Black Death........ You would not believe all the people that I run into in BASE who want to do water jumps with a Round in the summer.but they don't know how to Pack it up. Once you give them the low down and show them once to Pack it. ( all of 15 minutes ) there off and Jumping & Luving them. .

Nice Work, Dan For Sure, 100 Different objects is Way Much harder to get. Most times. Than to get to 1000 BASE Jumps. .

.... . Thanks to MORPHEUS Technologies for the Quick order - 4 weeks to there shop in Florida. Then shipped to me. Robi P. your a bad ass....... .

Let me ask a few civil questions here before I run off to the job for a few hours. you say: " Thats absolutely true. But, in this case, we're not talking about paid packers. We're talking about students with 5 or 6 jumps packing, completely unsupervised, for other students." ......... Is there a Ticketed Rigger on site @ this DZ ? Do you think a DZ should have a Ticketed Rigger standing and looking over shoulder at every move when There Packers are packing all the student Rigs, Mains and Tandems Mains from there Days Work ? Are you saying that These students are Packing Canopy's Without Monetary-$ compensation. ? Do they Just Pack canopies for Fun or because they just need the Practice ? Are these Student Packers that are Packing students Main's.without a Rigger looking over there Should. Getting Compensated with Jump Tickets for there Work ? Because if they Pack for FREE-$$. Then I am going to Jump @ Your DZ........... .

but Mommy he Started it First. He called me a SkyGod. (you can't see me but) There is a tear in my eye. because my feelings are hurt also. I will say .."I'm sorry.".. first. If that will make you Feel Better Sparky...... .

vel-96: "this sl.i put his student out in these conditions but thought it was too dangerous for himself!! so he abandoned him! very sad, i still cant believe it! " ... WuuuuHu Ha HA ..Wow, I can believe it though. That sounds like a Possible DZ Safety Problem For Sure. The SL student was OK though and that is Good. Do You Think Anyone @ the DZ you (did not mention ) realized there was a Possible ADZ Safety issue ? Or do you think you were the only one there who Questioned there practices that evening ? . Or do you think they were all in just Skydiving in ( Ignorant Bliss ) just a DZ out there Skydiving and having Fun and doing all the jumps they Can Get ? .

OK, What is the most Un-Safe DZ ( but not name publicly ) in a thread? I would like this thread to stand for the Purpose of Teaching new skydive graduates Recognize REAL safety infractions. Not just the bending of a few BSR's. That drawn out thread of Safety conscience dribble ( USPA and FAA reg violations ) I read and Posted in. Got me thinking of DZ's in the past that I had seen - Questionable ! ... DZ safety related behavior. Now DON'T be shy. Post your Stories. I have heard some stories from lots of Skydivers with thousands of jumps and Years under there Belts. It would be entertaining to say the least. Plus a real learning experience for the new and up-coming jumpers. No need to name (names) or Even the DZ. Just make accusations and Name the Infractions You think You Saw while skydiving there. . First off I will tell you I was pretty much raised @ the defunked DZ called Sheridan. Where I did my first few hundred jumps. That DZ kind of folded up under a BLACK Cloud of legal and USPA action. This story would Stand-Up to some of the best of them I saw and heard about there though. So here goes. OK I was in the state of Lxxxxxxa in about 1995 or 96 and went to a little DZ called xxxxxxx xxxxx. When I drove up to the little field with only a wooden shake with a few windows broken out. There was a Grass Runway and some wire fences to set off the rural setting of a typical weekend DZ operation. So I did not think much when the Car drove-up about a half-hour later. Then a few guys piled out of it and threw a couple tandem Rigs on the ground with there personal Gear and threw it in the Shack. While that was going on a Cessna 182 came flying by then hooked back around and slipped-in and Parked. I made Idle chit-chat with the usual ..."I am bla-bla. I am from bum-fuck." and glad to meet ya. and I manifested up on a Load with the Tandems and a couple of Fun jumpers that showed up also. While I was on some loads there was a Couple AFF's up on jump Run. When all was on the ground and I noticed that the JM's were wearing street-cloths while they were doing a AFF Level-1 or 2. After I got back down from a load and was Packing the 1st thing that caught my eye that day was a Jumper that was coming on final on a used NOVA he picked up for 90-$. He was just getting ready to cross over the Barbed-Wire fence. When he Front-Risered that thing and it Folded up and He Crumpled up and was moaning from a deep ditch behind the wire Fence. A couple people ran over and carried him out. So everything looked under control and I went up on another load with some fun jumpers. When I landed my Canopy and was walking back to the Shake. There was a Fist-Fight just ending and somebody just got thrown out the front window of the Shake. Well It usually takes some really bizarre behavior to get me worried. So I just walked over and packed then I got back on another Load and Jumped like nothing ever happened. The day was starting to wind down and the few tandems and AFF students left. So I Paid my Tab and started Talking with the Staff there. They Whipped out a couple bottles of Champlain and started passing the bottles till gone. while Splitting the Cash-$ up between them and throwing all the Gear back into the trunk of the car. In the conversation and bull-shit skydive stories.I found out that None of them had any USPA Ratings for AFF. Which explained the AFF Dives with street cloths & no jump suites. I also really doubt that any had Current Tandem ratings or ever had them at all. So that ends One of Many fun Skydiving days I had in my life. @ xxxxxxx xxxx in the state of Lxxxxxxa and Names of Tandem masters and AFF-JM's that I can not mention. ...The End .

fuuuuuuck sorry bout that...... I threw my contacts out for the night. . also edit to add: Ok I will rephrase that. I guess I can still like you somewhat. even though you are not a Chic..... because I am secure in my Manhood. and I will restate. Damn, Dude you were Whining so hard I thought I was reading my own Writing ! .

I like you........ So tell me what you really think ? . edit to add: Damn girl, you were Whining so hard I thought I was reading My Own writing. .

popsjumper: ..."To belittle someone for jump numbers is bad enough but to invalidate his observations too?" ,,,,,,,,,,, Any & All Jumpers have the right to take control of His or Her own Safety @ a DZ no matter what there level of jump #'s. Dude I'm not trying to belittle him as much as you Think. Plain Fact is it just pissed me off. The guy has 75 jumps and is trying make it sound like His Own DZ is a Death Trap by Roundabout, Back-Hand Accusations of Gross Neglect of Jumpers and Student Jumpers Safety by His Own DZ. To just throw that SHIT out in the public Forum under the Disguise of ( Seeking Advice For Safety ) & ( what should I do ? ) is Bad Conduct & pretty fucking Lame. Also the biggest Fact that you are not looking @ is that This HUGE analysis and Judgment call of unsafe behavior of the DZ. Is only made in the Time Period aim.of What ? His first year or less of Training of Free-fall skills.Fact is the Guy Has 75 jumps and is setting himself up as the Looking-Eyes of what is the Proper & safe way to Run a DZ and the Basterd is barely off AFF or Static-line. It would be a rarity if @ that level of Skydiving. That he can barely keep himself alive Skydiving while having fun at the same time. Let alone grasp what is, Safe Conduct for Operations of a Working Drop Zone. also: The guy calls himself, Pimp-Daddy in his profile....... ................. popsjumper: ..."Reeks of skygod, to me." . Far from it buddy! So lets get one thing Perfectly Clear. I just put a Rig on and do One Jump @ a time. With the Goal, to be Alive & Smiling when I Land a Canopy. like everybody else out there doing the same thing as Me with Thousands of Jumps more than I. I also Know that I Hold no big importance in the World of Skydiving. I only know that Skydiving is Important to Me. So Please don't be a fucking Idiot and call me a SkyGod. For-Sure I can be a Cocky mother fucker but I have few more jumps Than Pimp-Daddy Kevin there does. I also got a few more acquired jump skills and Knowledge to back my mouth-up. So because of this small amount of Skydive Knowledge I have acquired over the years. I have Learned NOT to throw out Half-Assed Accusations of unsafe business practices of My Drop Zone.or ANY Other Drop Zone I have ever Jumped at .Especially in Public Chat Forum open to any fucking Non-Jumping ass-hole in the world out there to Gaze at. but Hey in my opinion It doesn't take a SkyGod to see that this guy is full of Shit. .

After reading the accusations of You-Kevin (pimp daddy) Made of his DZ being a poorly run and a menace to Jumpers physical well being. I would be TRULY interested with the opinions of other jumpers with a few more years of experience and jump #'s who skydive there. before making any decision of blatant Negligent Safety of jumpers. Kevin you sound REALLY pissed off. I will tell you something when Looking back to the time when I myself had 75 jumps. I did not know my Ass from a hole in the Ground. But Hey Now, look at you. All grown-up now. Quoting Regs. and passing judgment of your DZ's operations. I would be really interested in you posting some hard facts of what the Injury rate is there or even death rate @ YOUR DZ in question. Which is ? and WHO runs it ? Now this is only my opinion but that list of petty self-inflated infractions is nothing and with only 75 jumps. You do not know enough to lay judgment on any DZ operations. No DZ or jumper likes a Nark and If this thread you started is not for a Troll..... (i smell Troll). Then you are well on your way to being Branded just that. If you don't like things there on that DZ then Hey like stated before in a post. "You are a paying customer." so maybe you better Move-On. If you are not happy then maybe attach your Newly Acquired jump skills and new found ethics of a sport and life style you have only started to dip your Big Toe in. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, exnavykds: If we are dealing with ONLY the violations I witnessed first hand, we can start with these... BSR section H, item 3 states that manned ground-to-air communications are to be present on the dropzone during skydiving operations. BSR section K, item 2.d states that all students are to be equipped with a functional automatic activation device (AAD) that meets manufacturer’s recommended service schedule (this is also mandated in FAA regulations, section 105.43.c). BSR section K, item 2.f states that a steerable reserve canopy appropriate to the student’s weight be provided. BSR section K, item 2.g states that a freefall student must be equipped with a ripcord-activated, spring-loaded, pilot-chute-equipped main parachute or a bottom-of-container (BOC) throw-out pilot chute. FAA regulations, section 65.111 clearly sets forth the criteria as to who can and cannot pack a main parachute. FAA regulations, section 105.43 states that a reserve parachute must have been packed by a certifificated parachute rigger within 120 days before its use. . Man That List really cracks me up.......... Hey, What's your Hard-Core Statement @ the end of all your Posts ? exnavykds: "Don't give me those pussy-foot, girly landings. I wanna' land like I live, hard and fast. It’s not a man's landing unless you break something or you can pick grass outta your teeth afterwards!" . Now that sounds a little loose and fast with your safety & Saftey of all other jumpers around you. Maybe your should slow down a little before you have to much fun and hurt yourself. Sounds like you need to Harden-Up a little Tiger or Move On. .

,,,,,,,,,, Most likely the bastard is in Mexico because he can't Warm his COLD Heart. Busting BASE Jumpers, Oppressing Climbers or Ticketing anybody else in the public park in December. HOPEFULLY there are some fine Mexican BASE Jumpers I know down there. That will read this and realize that He is now on there Local-Turf. Then Track his Ass down Just Like He Would To Them For BASE Jumping in his Self-Appointed Domain.. Then Show him there Gracious Hospitality that he So Much Deserves. .

,,,,,,,,,,, Hey, JJEXP. You would not know why this guy chooses to do what he does would you ? I mean choosing to be over zealous in his duties as Dirt-Police of a Public Park. In prosecuting a BASE jumper who pays admission to be in it ? I have had a couple friends over the years that were police officers that also BASE jumped. I am pretty sure they would probably turn a blind-eye to a BASE jump they saw as long as there was no militias or Vandalism involved in making the jump even though there my have been a no trespassing sign stepped over by a jumper on the way to exit. They I am guessing recognizes prosecution of BASE jumping as a non-victim crime for Stealing Air. Unlike Ranger Link, who will run you down and hold you for prosecution for stepping of a cliff and landing a parachute on public property that the jumper has the right to be on . . Hey are you sure that (clicky) you posted to Ranger Link is him ??? That guy looks like his Mom got Hooked-Up with a Howler Monkey or something. Even though it looks like the guy in the Pic. looks like he has two opposing thumbs. That can not be him because obviously Any Decent, Real human being would not Do what he is doing to BASE jumpers. Also I would think the guy would get tired of Sucking the Public-Tit for a living As Dirt-Police and go for a Job that he seems to be more suited for. Like how about - IRS Agent - Porta-Potty toilet superintendent or how about moving up in life to a Security guard for A Sperm Bank ? Might be a Possibility of him getting fired from Security Guard. If the Sperm Bank finds out that he Drinks on the Job though .

No I think this must be him...... .

Ahhhhh yes - LINK - his reputation precedes him. I have heard climbers and jumpers talk of him. Is this the young man and Federal Employee that is loved by Climber and BASE jumper alike ??? Is he the one that I have heard about that will go out and remove Hardware & Climbers Ropes that he has determined have hung on the wall to long ? Even though they my be useful in future climbs or possible use for emergency aid or rescue ??? I heard that there is nothing that Tickles his Ass more. Than to sit on a climb and Waaaaak his Pud while waiting to see a BASE jumper exiting from a wall. Then radio down for reinforcement to move in make there big Crime Fighting bust. Is it true that he even climbs with his holstered Hand Gun ? .