Pendragon

Shouldn't be anything wrong with the flare on a Pilot. The microline control lines do shrink considerably on use - I had to have the toggles moved 2" from 300 jumps use (IIRC, it was a few years ago!). If that's the case then you won't be getting the power of a full flare. I'd first check the line lengths back to the manufacturer's manual. If the line set has done 350+ jumps you may need to replace the lot - or it may be a case of making sure the toggles are roughly correct. If the lines check out ok, then get someone to watch you land. You might just be flaring too late -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

I know there's a bunch of threads on it. In my belief, whilst the concept of freefall drift is correct, the proposed solution (fast fallers out after slower fallers) is wrong for a variety of reasons - and there's a whole bunch of DZs that agree with me. My home DZ is one. To infer that it's a closed discussion is rubbish. The skydiving industry is full of opinion that's constantly recycled. Putting freeflyers out after RW flyers out of a larger capacity skydiving aircraft (Twin Otter, Grand Caravan etc) increases the chance of large numbers of skydivers deploying at the same time - and it's pretty obvious to conclude that must be increasing the risk of collision under canopy. Correct separation on exit can be managed by leaving an extended gap between freeflyer groups (out first) and the RW groups when upper winds demand it, whilst maintaining vertical separation between groups and minimising the risk of canopy conflict. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Hardly. If the aircraft run-in is fast, then differential wind drift isn't a problem because the wind down jump run is minimal: there is no real advantage to putting RW flyers out first. If it's strong, then run-in would be slower and the gaps would need to be longer - but you wouldn't be so far from the DZ. Also, due to drift, RW flyers will want to be deeper than Freeflyers. Furthermore, take an example where it's 10 seconds between groups and freefly speeds imply 45s freefall rather than 1min RW. Deployments would be 25 seconds apart: the preceding group would be far away from their opening point by that point. Besides, what about a go-around if you get too deep? Skydivers still retain a personal responsibility to get out in roughly the right place to be able to make it to a suitable LZ. Putting RW groups out before freeflyers gets more skydivers opening on the same level, which in turn increases the chances of collision under canopy, and is done to solve another (largely theoretical) problem that can be addressed in other ways. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

You can manage that easily enough by leaving the appropriate amount of time between groups in the door - and for the first RW group after the freeflyers to leave a little extra time (which usually happens anyway given the inevitable faffing! ) It's far more difficult to manage lack of vertical separation once everyone is under canopy, and where the smaller (faster) and larger (slower) canopies are mixed across the various groups -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Which is why it is always counterproductive to put freeflyers out after RW groups - the vertical separation between groups is massively reduced and so the probably of a collision is increased -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Too right! Looks like the markets have already factored in the "in" vote, given the rising FTSE-100 index... 0.7% up at 10am! -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

That's not quite true - speeding the turn up (within reason) can reduce the height loss for a given rotation. My observation on this thread is that the OP is turning too low already with a fast rotation when he should be taking longer. On a Katana, I'd expect a 270 from around 650-700ft; 100ft higher for a Velo. Similarly, the OP is on a Katana @ 1.5 - so why do a 450? Going beyond 270 isn't going to get you anywhere as a non-crossbrace can't keep the additional pressure and energy that the higher turn provides, so it's really marginal over the 270. Coupled with the increased difficulty in sighting it, it's unlikely that any benefit will ever been seen - the OP would probably get a better swoop using a 270. To the OP: concentrate on perfecting your 270 @ 1.5, then get comfortable on the Katana @ 1.8, then move to a crossbrace. Then worry about 450s - which will be several hundred jumps away. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

I think what might have been advised to the OP is that they should consider what many people consider a semi-elliptical (ie tapered corners) canopy (eg, Safire 2) at the same size before downsizing, which is good advice as they will turn more easily at the same wingloading. Obviously coaching is key - I'm a little concerned at someone with 150 skydives doing 180 front riser turns though; bit too soon for that. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Me too. My Skyflyer was one of the originals given to Airspeed; still got it. Very easy to put into a spin! The S3 OTOH was really quite easy to fly, and should be credited with paving the way for bigger suits as the industry figured out that bigger armwings alone was not the way forward -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Although you've got something now, I was going to mention the Safire2. Many options people give aren't that fun if you're into HP landings. My wing loading is 1.6, and I've used it on c. 600+ wingsuit jumps up to my current large(ish) suit, an Apache Scorpion. I like to swoop when I can, and it planes out of a 270 nicely; I previously had a Pilot and it recovered too fast. Occasionally I've had line twists, and it's been stable enough for me to kick out at my leisure. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Whilst dqpacker's post made me laugh... I used a Safire2 129, which I was loading at 1.6 when I started using it - although 1.4-1.6 is fine on that canopy; whatever you're comfortable on. I suggest this canopy as it's not as aggressive as a Sabre2, but it will dive and recover well enough (I found a Pilot wanted to recover from a dive too quickly) and predictably. The biggest thing to remember is that, as you progress, you get better at making the canopy dive. So start high - and don't worry about planing out too high! It's all to easy to think that you've got a consistent turn early on, when in fact you're still learning and developing the dive and resultant power of the swoop. Also, break it down into elements. So, start with straight-ins, but recovering from deep brakes (eg, for me, I used to release from deep brakes @ 100ft, canopy would surge forward then recover, then I'd flare). Then add double fronts higher up (deep brakes, double fronts, recover, flare), then add turns - starting with small. So deep brakes, double fronts, let one up slowly to carve 45 degrees, recover, flare. etc. Steadily move to 90 then 135 then 180, then 270s. Obviously spending tens if not hundreds of jumps on each. I started the process at jump 200 (on a Pilot 150 @ 1.4); I had a consistent 270 on a Safire2 and Xfire2 at 800. It takes time! You can go all the way up to 270s with a Safire2 - and I still use mine @ 1.6 when I wingsuit. You should seek lots of advice along the way - and treat it as a voyage of discovery. Also, only ever change or add 1 (new) thing at a time! Hope this helps! Richard -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

LOL! My thoughts too. Seems like someone is trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist - stows, PC porosity, bridle line length, good PC throw technique and body position are far more important. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Good flying with you Jeremy. After you all left I realised that our sunset beach jump was my 1,500th skydive. Thanks for sharing and making it a good one! Richard

I'm here at Sebastian now and have been for a week or so. Yes, they now ask that wingsuit jumpers have a D licence and deploy by 3,000 ft. I haven't had any problems though; the staff are their usual friendly selves and the vibe is quite relaxed. Many DZs around the world have a 500 jump minimum so it's not that out of kilter, and no-one should really be deploying at less than 3,000ft without good reason on a normal wingsuit jump anyway. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

There's no right or wrong answer here, but a general rule of thumb is that if your wingloading in lbs/sq ft exceeds your jumps/100 + 1 (so at 200 jumps that would be 1.2), then you may attract some attention. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Hopefully the following points might help. Don't go for a Stiletto. They're trimmed to be responsive on toggles, but they have a short recovery arc. There are better canopies to perform high performance landings on. Something elliptical for swooping, like a Katana, Crossfire2 etc needs to be loaded at least 1.6 lbs/sq ft to get any real benefit out of it above a semi-elliptical canopy such as a Sabre2 or Safire2. 1.8 is a good place to be on a canopy like that. Higher and you need to be going crossbraced. Lower and you won't get the benefit. Better to work up to a higher loading on a Sabre2 and make the transfer onto the crossfire when you've got more experience. FWIW, I wingsuit with a Safire2 129 @ 1.6. I get the good openings I need and it still swoops very nicely (270s and using my rears). -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

The point regarding downsizing 20% and changing planform simultaneously still stands... Oh, and yes, I'm well aware of how different canopies fly. I've flown enough of them. Actually, wearing lead can help to increase the wingloading on the larger canopy - but I don't expect this was done here. I'm sorry, but why defend a silly decision? Also, why would someone post on these forums such a history? I also realise that it is often the way that people can downsize in waves (currency also plays a part). However, a simple rule of thumb is that your wingloading (in lbs/sq ft) shouldn't be too far from your total jumps divided by 1,000 + 1 (so 1.0/1.1 when you get your "A" licence; 2.0 at 1,000 jumps). If it is, then it's always interesting to find out why. Maybe this person has 600+ hop n pops and is an experienced paraglider pilot... or maybe not. Canopy progression here says it all really... -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

I'm with Yoink on this one. Going from a 120 Katana to a Velo 96 is just dumb. Could the person in question really do 270s and adjust for differences in height loss during the turn to ensure that they executed a perfect swoop each time (and on target) on their Katana first? I doubt it. The Katana may have been a little big for what the individual wanted to achieve, but it would have made more sense to pause at a 109 Katana first for a few hundred jumps, then go to the Velo. There's a big jump to crossbraced canopies that should never be underestimated. For instance, my experience with initiation heights for a 270 degree turn the way I do it (btw, wingloading isn't much of a factor in these differences, more the planform): Safire2 129 @ 1.65 - 600ft Crossfire2 109 @ 1.8 - 680ft Velocity 96 @ 2.0 - 800ft Velocity 90 @ 2.2 - 800ft Yoink gets the point... -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Discussed this with Scott Roberts years ago. What we came up with was: You do get a slight increase (as pointed out) in density air altitude as a consequence of moist air being less dense than dry air. This is because the same number of molecules occupy a given volume at a given temperature, and that water molecules (H2O = 18 g/mole) weigh significantly less than the main constituent of dry air (nitrogen, N2 = 28 g/mole). However, this effect would make the turn higher and not lower, but as pointed out, the effect is small. What is overriding is the change in air viscosity. Moist air is more viscous (like treacle) than dry air. As a consequence, the drag on the canopy is increased. Compared to the canopy, the suspended weight (the canopy pilot) has little surface, and so is little impacted by this change when compared to the canopy. After the turn has been initiated, the canopy will decelerate faster in humid conditions, causing a the pilot to travel a sharper arc under the canopy, thereby allowing the wing to recover to level flight faster. I've had similar experiences myself with the difference in turn initiation height this makes; back when I was jumping a Velo 90 or 96, I was doing the same 270 degree turn roughly 80-100' lower in Florida than back in the UK. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

That may be true, but what is considered acceptable does change (and therefore so should the poll). It is timely too. You may not know, but the British Parachute Association has just raised the minimum opening requirement by 500ft. So it is now 2,500ft by which one needs a fully open main here and not 2,000ft for all skydiving disciplines. For most modern canopies, this means deploying by a minimum height of 3,300-3,500ft anyway. Interestingly, given wingsuit flights are quite long - especially with modern suits - any "need" to deploy low should have been negated. I've only pulled on the low side during big-ways where collision avoidance was also a concern, but never below 2,500ft (or 4.7147652 × 10^37 Planck lengths for Prof. Kallend ). Richard -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Nice!

Sebastian probably has more going on. Why don't you come during the Invasion? They'll be a bunch of wingsuiters. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

I'm already here... Weather has been good last few days. A cold front is due Mon/Tue bringing the possibility of some rain and cooling things off a little, but the weather should be reasonable again in time for the start of the invasion.

My experience is similar to yours, although the exact moment to use the rears to get the best out of the technique takes some practice. I have several hundred on a XF2 at 109 1.8-1.9. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13

Who knows. Sometimes these things just happen. In umpteen hundred wingsuit jumps, I've had 1 experience where the final locking stows of my main wouldn't come undone, leaving me with the bag towing behind. This cleared as soon as I looked over my shoulder - the air rushing past me at that point was enough to finish off the job and I had only a line twist as a consequence (result of going asymmetric at that point). It's quite reasonable for either a bag or reserve PC in tow to be experienced for a few seconds in a wingsuit. -- BASE #1182 Muff #3573 PFI #52; UK WSI #13