NeedToJump

DeLand and Sebastian are within 1.5 hours of Space Center, ZHills is probably about 2-2.5 hours from there. All three of them are great dropzones. IMO, Sebastian has the nicest view of the three (great for tandems). DeLand has the nicest restaurant/bar with AC and is open every day. Call all three, explain what you're looking to do and see which sounds the best for you. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

I'm not talking about creating a perfect system. I just think that a system putting out coaches who, not only have nothing to offer, but are in fact dangerous to the people they are supposed to be coaching needs fixing. Again, this isn't to imply that all the coaches are like this, but the fact that someone who is dangerous to a student can get a coach rating is a big red flag to me. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

That's great, that's exactly what I think the course should be. I agree with this completely. I think that there are good examiners and good coaches, but there are also really crappy examiners and coaches. If all the examiners took the course seriously and made sure the students put in the time and effort to become a good coach, then I think the problem of poorly qualified coaches would be eliminated. I have no problem paying a coach to work with me. I also coach quite a bit and generally don't charge anything. If someone comes up to me wanting a 1-on-1 coached jump and doing that jump keeps me from doing something else I was planning, then I'll ask for them to cover my slot so it doesn't cost me anything. Most times I pay my own slot on all my jumps whether I'm coaching or not. I completely agree. Again, I completely agree. I wish that more people gave back to the sport simply to give back and help people, not because they want $$$. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

From what I understand, the C license / 125 jump rule was implemented earlier this year (maybe March or April) after an incident there. I called them this morning and they confirmed C license or 125 jumps. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

I agree completely. I think the coach rating is a great idea, but poorly implemented. I do know people with a coach rating who are fantastic coaches, but I also know people with a coach rating who have no business coaching. They would be dangerous to a student and have absolutely nothing else to offer anyone else, yet they are paid money to coach simply because their check cleared and bought them a coach rating. For the people saying that a coach rating proves someone has taken the time and effort to learn how to teach, I disagree. The only thing it *proves* is that the person giving the course signed them off for the rating. If everyone with a coach rating put in the time and effort to learn how to teach and applied this knowledge for the sake of helping others, then I would not have any problem with the coach rating. My big problem with the coach rating is the people who have it who are awful coaches and dangerous to others, yet still sucker students who don't know any better into paying for a 'coached' jump. This is NOT to say that all people with the coach rating are bad. There are many fantastic coaches out there. It is the bad ones who share the exact same rating that are the problem. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

Huh? I do not understand how your reply has anything to do with what I wrote. Am I missing something? Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

As other people said, Spaceland is a dropzone in Texas, Space Center is in Florida. I just called Space Center (Florida) and was told that experienced jumpers need a C license or 125 jumps because there are very few outs. I was specifically told "we don't want skydivers from out of town with 50 jumps visiting and getting hurt because they had to land out." If your profile is accurate, it looks like you will not be able to jump at Space Center. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

Skydive Space Center in Titusville, FL flies to 15K regularly and you can pay extra to go to 18K. I hear that they require a C license to jump there and are not very friendly toward fun jumpers anymore so be sure to call them first. Space Center, DeLand, Sebastian, ZHills and Lake Wales are all within about 2.5 hours of each other so there are a lot of choices in central Florida. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

There's also the Crosskeys invasion in Sebastian, FL. If you're planning on going to ZHills you may want to check that out as well. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2908384;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

I completely disagree with you on the differences between the Stiletto and Sabre2. How many jumps do you have on each? I have about 600 jumps on Stilettos and probably 300 on Sabre2s and I find them to be completely different canopies. What is your perception of being faster under canopy? Most people consider a canopy that is more responsive to input to be faster. I personally think that the Stiletto is faster than the Sabre2. The Sabre2s that I have jumped take more time and altitude to open than the Stilettos - I consider that to be a softer opening. My Stiletto openings were not hard, but they were definitely more brisk than the Sabre2. I agree with you that the Stiletto is more responsive, but I find it to be significantly more responsive, not just a bit. As far as altitude loss goes, you are incorrect, that is not an opinion. The Stiletto has a much shorter recovery arc than the Sabre2 and loses a lot less altitude in a turn. The reason the Stiletto gets referred to as a "Spinetto" is not because it spins up all the time, but rather when it does spin up it can get pretty ugly. I had to cutaway from line twists from the canopy to my risers. The risers were pinning my head to my chest and the canopy was spinning pretty violently. I'm not trying to say whether you or anyone else should or should not be jumping a Stiletto; that's up to the people who know you and is ultimately your decision. I just felt that you did not give a good comparison between the two canopies and wanted to put my experiences out there. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

They wouldn't be qualified to compete for the UK as is, but they can still win the world meet slot and then replace the members of the team who cannot compete at the world meet. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

45 minutes to 1.5 hours depending on which of the four I choose. There 5 within 1.5 hours, but only four that I go to. Ah it's nice living in Florida Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

Perhaps that's because of comments like these that don't contribute anything to what could have been a very informative thread. Instead people feel the need to find things to bash instead of contributing anything toward a positive discussion. How about if you don't have something constructive to add (disagreements are constructive) you just don't post? I still don't understand why so many people have so many problems with the original post. Ray is advocating separating different landing styles and offering insight into *some* of the possible ways this can happen. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

Here are some pictures from yesterday's launch taken from Sand Point Park in Titusville, FL located about 12 nautical miles from the launch. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

It sounds like your question was already answered before you posted it on here. Stick with the advice you've been given by the people who know you and have seen you fly your current canopy. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I replied to Kallend just above about my interpretation of the "share the air" quote. I agree with you that swoopers and non-swoopers sharing the same time and space is extremely dangerous. If that is what Ray was saying, then I disagree with him. Do you think that the separation can be attained by time only? If the swoopers are the first to land before any non-swoopers enter the pattern, does that adequately result in a lack of shared air? What if the swoopers hold in breaks until the rest of the load has landed? I see your point about education and agree. I do think that better education will help with this and that education for everyone should never stop. I completely agree with you; I don't think either turn is safe in a standard pattern. I think that a 180 is more dangerous than a 270 in a standard pattern, but neither have a place. I don't think one is "safer" than the other, but I do think one is "more dangerous". The dotcom wizards who did well were the ones who convinced everyone else that their new economic model would work and then sold out before the bubble burst. My point here has absolutely no relevance, but I just had to throw it in there Forgive me if you have already answered this question in a previous post as I do not read everything written on dz.com, but what do you suggest as a solution? Most of what I have read (in general, not specifically from you) seems to only address the issue of separating high performance landings from the standard pattern. That is only one part of the canopy collision issue. I see far more close calls from standard pattern jumpers than I do from swoopers. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

If this means sharing the same landing area at the same time (a reasonabe interpretation of hos words), I believe it to be incorrect and dangerous, for reasons that have already been explained over and over again. Just relying on knowledge, experience and training has also been shown not to prevent collisions. I agree with you completely on that. Swoopers and fun jumpers sharing the same space at the same time is extremely dangerous. However, I do not believe that Ray was trying to say it is ok. Here are some other quotes from his original post: "The jumpers with the smallest canopies land first, and in return the jumpers with the largest canopies land last", "Proper separation, and finding a slot in the landing pattern can work", "High performance landings can be safe but doing them in a crowd is just a bad idea.", "It’s a trade off for safety, if you have to swoop, then you have to pull higher. Want more freefall, then don’t swoop." I interpret Ray's quote that you mentioned above to mean that swoopers and fun jumpers can share the air together (exit from the same plane load) as long as they separate themselves by distance or time. Ray very specifically talks about avoiding landing in the same "landing window" as someone else so I do not think he was implying that it is ok to share the same landing area at the same time. I obviously could be wrong since it is not my post, but I know Ray and know that he does not advocate sharing the same landing area at the same time. What do you think about the rest of his post? You mentioned that you found his thesis to be incorrect in "parts", which other parts? Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

Since this forum is for discussion and learning, could you please let us know which parts you feel to be dangerously incorrect? I am genuinely interested in learning becomig safer. In rereading all the posts from you and Winsor in this thread, the only points I see Winsor arguing are: * A 180 has the potential to be safer than a 270 in traffic, but neither are safe (I don't think Ray was saying either of these should be done in traffic) * Swoopers and fun jumpers should have clearly defined and separated air spaces (again, I don' think Ray was saying otherwise). Other than those two points, the only thing I got out of either of your posts was that since Ray does not have a degree in physics and has not studied the physics of canopy collisions that his post is completely devoid of merit. I highly respect the knowledge and education you both have and would like to know specifically what is so incorrect and dangerous from Ray's post, and what would you both suggest? Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

I let the tunnel staff know when I'm going to do a downwinder too Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

I jump at a dropzone that has a "first person down sets the landing direction" rule and I like to swoop downwind and tend to land first. Here's what I do: I ask manifest / S&TA / DZM if it's ok to land downwind if I'm the first person down. I make sure to tell EVERY person on the load that I'll be the first person landing, I'll be landing downwind and let them know where I'll be landing and NOT to follow me and that the second person down will set the landing direction. This method of communicating what I'd LIKE to do (if for some reason I am not the first person down then I don't do it) has worked quite well and neither the dropzone management nor any jumpers have complained or had any problem with it. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

I have them and I like them much better than my old risers. I find that I can get more power out of a front riser turn and that it's easier to control the dive. I have them on my secondary rig which has become my primary rig partly because of how much I like the risers. Thanks for the new riser design Louie!

Nice post Ray. I really don't understand why some people are picking apart and attacking this. Ray is not advocating that high performance landings be done in traffic. In fact he said "You need to use your judgment to decide when it is safe to swoop and when it is not. High performance landings can be safe but doing them in a crowd is just a bad idea." One of the things I really like about Ray's post is that it goes into details on many of the OTHER reasons that canopy collisions happen apart from swoopers showing bad judgement and swooping through traffic. Exit order within the same discipline (doesn't always have to be biggest to smallest), landing order within a group. By far, most of the close calls I've seen under canopy occur with people who are NOT attempting high performance landings. Jumpers who get target fixation, jumpers who need to land in the peas, people paying more attention to the wind flag on no wind days than the first person down, people not paying attention to traffic, people racing to be the first person to land, etc. This is not a swooper vs. non-swooper problem; this is something that every single person under a parachute needs to be aware of. One of the ways to avoid canopy collisions is to separate high performance landing from regular landings by time and/or space. I don't think there is anyone who disagrees with that. There is more needed than only that and Ray gives a lot of good insight into some of the other issues as well. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

I missed it the other times it was posted too so thanks for posting it this time Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

edit: Changed my mind and decided to PM instead Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

Yup, it just won't count as a point until you go from the exit to the first point. If you do exit a different formation than the first point, you don't have to break grips going to the first point. To see what I mean, go here and select "Exit Random J (Donut)" from the dropdown list. You'll see that the formation that Fastrax exits is not a donut, but they quickly change grips as soon as they are out of the plane. Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com