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grayhghost

Tonysuits can fly up!

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We've also seen tracks from the eiger showing the jumper first climbing 20 meters after exit (I think that was also Matts?)...the angular look of the track suggests its more likely an issue with a less accurate GPS reading than an actual climb.
For sure, positive angle of flight can be possible, but even 150 mph dives in all of paralogs tracks with V's, X's, Apaches and more, dont show a climb or even a second of possitive lift after much longer/harder diving...
I suspect this is just awesome video and flying to watch...for which Ill press play once more in a secondB|
The video doesnt need the funny GPS data to impress...:)
JC
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2:58 - 3:02 is definitely flying up. GPS data can be off, but that's some rock solid visual evidence. Denying that makes it seem like you can't get past the suit it was done in[:/]

Nah, I'd have to disagree. Looked at that a few times. It looks more like the changing angle of incidence combined with gaining distance from the wall is revealing more of the top of the ridge, giving the illusion of going up. I've had a similar visual/feeling on far lesser flights, but similar terrain (granted I never got that close), by just looking under/behind me. Not to mention GPS tends to foul up altitude data the most when crossing drastic elevation differences at speed. It's a very good glide, but "up" I'm not really seeing -- and I'm not biased towards any manufacturer (my next suit is a TS).

That said, this video is amazing. Really fantastic flights. Some of the best lines I've seen.

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great vid amazing flying almost thaught it was one of those r/c plane videos unitl you show the shot with the ws in view, any reason why the tonsuits leading edge always seems to be colapsed and flapping when chasing terain? does it affect the suits stability (one arm doing it more than the other)?

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There is a foam pool toy in the Tony and Phoenix arm wings that gets dislodged from time to time but it doesn't really affect handling.

I am not sure you fully understand the effect of thermals on a hot day Jarno, they are very powerful forces, especially near the edge.

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We have all seen gps data of suits achieving verly low vertical speeds after a flair (5mph or less). Combine this low freefall speed with a strong thermal = positive climb rate. No black magic at work.

What we need now is to work out a way to do this in the performance comps, more evidence in a controlled environment needed.

It's of limited use to the 'landers' though, you still wouldn't want to put your feet down :)
BASEstore.it

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We have all seen gps data of suits achieving verly low vertical speeds after a flair (5mph or less). Combine this low freefall speed with a strong thermal = positive climb rate. No black magic at work.



Not related to any brand oriented thing, but those flares are all after 150 to sometimes 180 mph dives straight down. I'm not sure thats the kind of diving speeds he's doing here. Matt posted GPS data of his Eiger jump showing similar gain in altitude, but directly after exit. The angle of the terrain makes it hard to judge the actual 'climbing' angle. Again I have no doubt people can climb with any type/model wingsuit, but here just am far from convinced simply because these kind of GPS errors show up more often, and the dives/speed far from
match even the most agressive of flares in the PPC database...added thermals or not. Ill stick to just the video itself being an awesome one to watch.
JC
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Check the tracks Matt posted here to see him climb straight after exit...

GPS data is not an accurate science.
I see climbing 'relative to the angle of the terrain' in that video, but think you guys are putting a tad to much work into this one, in terms of whats actually happening there..Ive seen several 'climbs' in some of the videos I edit for PF, but none where actual climbs..

Moberta, I have no need to bash any suit, model or make. If anything Matt seems to do that himself on his website in more recent posts...critisize him for it...not me..
JC
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Cool video and some nice flying no doubt. However, I'm not buying into the hype here. What we are seeing in the video is no different than what we see when people break off from a flock and punch it out and appear to be going up to our relative position. In this case and almost all of the proximity flight videos, the flyer is in a classic delta body position with the arm wings angled back so he can get closer to the deck. An inefficient way to fly a suit in almost all cases, unless you are diving to a formation or in this case, trying to get closer to the deck and have still have an "out" or lift in reserve so to speak.

The reason the jumper appears to go up is quite simple, he went from inefficient flight to efficient flight by moving his arms back into the correct and efficient flying position. Had the jumper been wearing an old school classic, the effect would have been the same as the suit is now converting that speed generated into the lift it needs to fly efficiently, hence it looks like he goes "up" or corking is another way of looking at it.

Again, nice flying and a nice line, mad props, respect to the pilot, but lets not invent some shit out of nothing that isn't seen/done on a daily basis in a wingsuit. Is it a cool visual? Yes it is but there is an explanation for it and it has nothing to do with what brand/model suit the jumper is wearing.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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I came across this quote:

Quote

The rest just suck, and if you’re wondering what I think of your wingsuit video, then the answer is: I probably haven’t seen it and wouldn’t like it anyway, unless I’m in it.

Trust me when I say that our time is better spent watching baby animals sneeze and fart, or cats attacking and wounding animal control officers (click), or clumsy people crashing.



That attitude sucks. Guess I'll stop watching his videos.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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This is kind of a fun thread :) Lou you are not making a very good comparison :) People in free fall as opposed to a cliff which has a fixed position are not even remotely similar in any way :)

Probably a better comparison would be leaving a Sky Van at high speed and on exit popping up above the aircraft. How many people on this board have done this? I know I have. What about people leaving the plane and hitting the tail? Is this a phenomena you believe impossible? Wing-suits can and do go up with enough speed generated :)

You guys are right, GPS data is not always accurate but when GPS data supports what video is showing then it's a bit easier to believe the numbers are reasonable.

But don't worry your selves over it to much. There is more video coming :) Where this phenomena will be easier to see :) Just wait, things thought impossible seem to be happening everyday now in these new generation of wing-suits. If you had told me we would be doing the things we are doing now 10 years ago I would have said, "your on crack, that's impossible" and you know what's funny, i would have been very, very wrong :)

Jeb

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2:58 - 3:02 is definitely flying up. GPS data can be off, but that's some rock solid visual evidence. Denying that makes it seem like you can't get past the suit it was done in[:/]



IMO going up cannot be done in ANY brand of suit. This claim is not new. I read a post from rec.Skydiving from Yuri's early days and they saw some gps data of altitude gain following a dive. They concluded that it was ierror from the instruments.

This happens more easily on pressure based gps systems but can also happen on purely Satelite based GPS.


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am i wrong in thinking that this 'gps' data is a mixture of position data (from a gps) and altitude data (from an altimeter built into the unit)?

Or

do the gps sattelites somehow figure out the altitude of the unit aswell?

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Let's explain this in a way that even non-believers can understand. Thermals can get stronger then 10 m/s+ which is equal to about 22mph. Say he flared his suit out to 15mph (easily doable coming out of a slight dive on the bigger suits.) Do the math and you can see how climbs (with the aid of big thermals) are entirely possible, as the video demonstrates.
I like fuzzy bunnys!!!

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am i wrong in thinking that this 'gps' data is a mixture of position data (from a gps) and altitude data (from an altimeter built into the unit)?

Or

do the gps sattelites somehow figure out the altitude of the unit aswell?



It depends on the unit. Some of Garmin's receivers use a barometric altimeter to augment elevation measurements; other receivers, e.g., the FlySight, do not.

A position track alone probably wouldn't convince me that someone was flying up. The published specs for GPS receivers give position accuracy on the order of 2 metres, but this cannot necessarily be achieved in dynamic conditions. One thing in particular that caught my eye is the "lift" immediately after exit. This is probably best explained by the fact that the GPS receiver suddenly loses half the satellites it had been using. This results in a bit of a discontinuity in measurements, and it wouldn't be too surprising to see a sudden jump up at that point.

One piece of information comes to mind that could corroborate a claim of lift... In addition to calculating position based on the travel time of satellite signals, a GPS also keeps track of shifts in the signal due to Doppler effects. This information can be used by the GPS to calculate your 3D speed, with no need to take differences on inaccurate position readings. Not all consumer units record this, but a few do.

Published specs give a speed accuracy of about 0.1 m/s, but, again, in dynamic conditions this could be as bad as 1 m/s or so. The GPS receiver can use its internal model to estimate the accuracy of speed measurements, which gives us some idea how big the "error bars" are on any speed measurement.

So... Putting it all together... First, the data should occur in a place where there is not a sudden change in visible satellites. Second, the position track should show an upward trend. Finally, the vertical speed measurement derived from Doppler data should show upward motion greater than the reported speed accuracy.

Michael

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There is more video coming :) Where this phenomena will be easier to see :)



Would love to see it. Outside fixed cam POV (like the ones of you buzzing the balloons, except from a side perspective relative to flight path)... with either the horizon in the background, or a level in the foreground (to prove our perspective is level). And the pilot flying through the frame, going up.

That would certainly end all the arguing. :)
I do agree though that comparing a fixed object to falling bodies to explain away a visual trick (which I do still think that footage probably is) is incorrect.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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I'm buying it... Here's my reasoning. Mattt generated a ton of forward speed at very low vertical speeds and the key part is he transitioned that into horizontal flight efficiently. The head down method of diving creates greater 3d speeds but you waste too much energy overcoming the downward speed to ever have enough energy left to glide up at the end. His flight is much closer related to a high spped skyvan exit, that wingsuit pilot doesn't have the downward vertical speed to overcome either. Combine that with any bit of aid from thermals and you can glide up.

How fast are high speed skyvan exits? And wingsuiters were gaining altitude on those long before the current generation of suits...

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Lou you are not making a very good comparison
Jeb



Yeah, go figure, aerodynamics never support hype.:S



The comparison Jeb refers to has nothing to do with aerodynamics, only very basic relative motion.

The comparison was:
moving object relative to a moving object
compared to
moving object relative to fixed object

The comparison doesn't really provide evidence for either side of the argument.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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