DSE 3 #1 February 11, 2011 This is really a question for DZO's but curious about this audience's feedback. A foreigner shows up on your DZ with an S-bird, a logbook signed by a "WSI" and 157 jumps. His home county's rules on wingsuiting asks for 500 jumps. Although it's not part of the considerations, he also has a 12' bridle, never jumped. Do you let him on your plane or not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #2 February 11, 2011 Quote Do you let him on your plane or not? Regarding his insurance: if its through his own countries organization, which he is bound to by the rules they issue for skydiving (and in this case wingsuit flying). Ignoring those rules means he is probably also at risk of not being insured. As well as not sticking to the BSR which (I think) also reads '200 jump minimum. Seems like the DZO has more reason to not let him on his plane than you'd have. But thats just talking money, and not safety. The model you mention seems to be rated as an experienced suit (at an awesome 75 wingsuit jumps) on the website of the manufacturer. If that's what the WSI trained and/or sold him at those jump numbers. Just wow. Id wouldn't want there low experienced flyers on loads where they could potentially get in other peoples way and hurt other besides themselves. I remember the excact same problem from the AN72 boogie...sadly there the wrong decisions where made by people from who I expected a lot better...Sad to see this same issue popping up again and again. All these guys without patience to invest time and effort into learning something proper..and sadly, money hungry individuals who assist them through sales and payd instruction. Who 'issues' these WSI rating btw? I keep seeing that name pop up, but hear two to three different sources regarding who issues them. Probably the start of a long thread with bitching about why and who. But sadly again just ignoring basic safety and advice regarding experience needed to fly a wingsuit, and experience recommended to fly that certain model. I guess Ill grab some popcorn...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeteS 0 #3 February 11, 2011 Nope, please try your call again. All operators are busy helping "Pre-Qualified" customers......Thank you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #4 February 11, 2011 I would sell him 25 coached tracking jumps + an Intro/Prodigy/Access suit scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #5 February 11, 2011 QuoteThe model you mention seems to be rated as an experienced suit (at an awesome 75 wingsuit jumps) on the website of the manufacturer. If that's what the WSI trained and/or sold him at those jump numbers. Just wow. I don't want to see the thread devolve into a discussion of suits/qualifications...but I'm constantly surprised by the number of very low jump number BASE wanna-be's that are showing up with Xbirds at 10-15 WS jumps. There is no "WSI" rating. It's a bullshit rating created for bullshit ego. For purposes of clarity, there is a massive difference between the old "200 jump recommendation" and the new BSR that states quite clearly "200 jumps minimum REQUIRED." You didn't answer the question. Would you let this person get on your plane in a wingsuit based on the information before you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #6 February 11, 2011 where i jump he would most likely be asked to either drop the suit or fly it at another DZscissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeemax 0 #7 February 11, 2011 QuoteThis is really a question for DZO's but curious about this audience's feedback. A foreigner shows up on your DZ with an S-bird, a logbook signed by a "WSI" and 157 jumps. His home county's rules on wingsuiting asks for 500 jumps. Although it's not part of the considerations, he also has a 12' bridle, never jumped. Do you let him on your plane or not? Simple answer. No. Just because another dropzone has allowed him to jump under the minimum requirements, doesn't mean I have to. If the jumper has a problem with that, i'd be happy to talk it through with them, but they're still not jumping a wingsuit.Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #8 February 11, 2011 QuoteWould you let this person get on your plane in a wingsuit based on the information before you? The aforementioned event, I was 'overruled' by two more experienced people who did allow the (similar low experienced person) to jump and even did the FFC a few months before, knowing the low experience. We just took our group on different loads/plane to not be in the same airspace. A high deployment, bad navigation or shit exit can mean someone falls through your group. Im all for not treating anyone as babies, and someone having full say in silly or even downright stupid things he or she may wants to do. But when it adds a factor to my jump or the group Im playing LO for that makes me worry. Than Id rather skip that load. But with the BSR now in place. How does it work when you have done 1 jump elsewhere? If I throw someone fresh of AFF from a plane in a WS for 1 jump just to 'get one in'. Does that mean the person is clear of any rules the BSR has regarding wingsuit jumps? As its not an FFC. Its the 2nd flight. The UK system is very strict, yet at the same time has loopholes the size of the moon with regards to who teaches what and how. How does this 200 jump rule compare?JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeemax 0 #9 February 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteWould you let this person get on your plane in a wingsuit based on the information before you? The aforementioned event, I was 'overruled' by two more experienced people who did allow the (similar low experienced person) to jump and even did the FFC a few months before, knowing the low experience. We just took our group on different loads/plane to not be in the same airspace. A high deployment, bad navigation or shit exit can mean someone falls through your group. Im all for not treating anyone as babies, and someone having full say in silly or even downright stupid things he or she may wants to do. But when it adds a factor to my jump or the group Im playing LO for that makes me worry. Than Id rather skip that load. But with the BSR now in place. How does it work when you have done 1 jump elsewhere? If I throw someone fresh of AFF from a plane in a WS for 1 jump just to 'get one in'. Does that mean the person is clear of any rules the BSR has regarding wingsuit jumps? As its not an FFC. Its the 2nd flight. The UK system is very strict, yet at the same time has loopholes the size of the moon with regards to who teaches what and how. How does this 200 jump rule compare? The UK system isn't worth the paper it's written on. Make some wingsuit jumps away from a BPA DZ and you can technically do what you want when you get back. It's still down to the CCI at the end of the day, but the rules say it's possible. The sticker system here also needs some work. A long serious of jumps that used to be successfully completed with an FFC.Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kleggo 138 #10 February 11, 2011 not under the listed conditions. i don't really care about "him", but do care about overall WS activity at the DZ. and this" foreigner" has the potential to screw the pooch for other enthusiasts. 12' bridle???????????? is he my size? i'd like to try an S Bird.......... kleggo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #11 February 11, 2011 Quote This is really a question for DZO's but curious about this audience's feedback. A foreigner shows up on your DZ with an S-bird, a logbook signed by a "WSI" and 157 jumps. His home county's rules on wingsuiting asks for 500 jumps. Although it's not part of the considerations, he also has a 12' bridle, never jumped. Do you let him on your plane or not? Depends on the plane too. I would not risk a low tail, but tail gate would be OK. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #12 February 11, 2011 Quote But with the BSR now in place. How does it work when you have done 1 jump elsewhere? If I throw someone fresh of AFF from a plane in a WS for 1 jump just to 'get one in'. Does that mean the person is clear of any rules the BSR has regarding wingsuit jumps? As its not an FFC. Its the 2nd flight. The UK system is very strict, yet at the same time has loopholes the size of the moon with regards to who teaches what and how. How does this 200 jump rule compare?] Seems to me the BSR is pretty clear/clean. 200 jumps before any wingsuit. You can always go to a non USPA dropzone. I don't know what a non-USPA DZ would allow. Phoenix-Fly coaches must obey the USPA rule, however. Additionally, if you're a USPA Coach and a PFC and you disregard the BSR, even on a non-USPA DZ...kiss your USPA Coach rating goodbye. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DARK 0 #13 February 11, 2011 QuoteQuote But with the BSR now in place. How does it work when you have done 1 jump elsewhere? If I throw someone fresh of AFF from a plane in a WS for 1 jump just to 'get one in'. Does that mean the person is clear of any rules the BSR has regarding wingsuit jumps? As its not an FFC. Its the 2nd flight. The UK system is very strict, yet at the same time has loopholes the size of the moon with regards to who teaches what and how. How does this 200 jump rule compare?] Seems to me the BSR is pretty clear/clean. 200 jumps before any wingsuit. You can always go to a non USPA dropzone. I don't know what a non-USPA DZ would allow. Phoenix-Fly coaches must obey the USPA rule, however. Additionally, if you're a USPA Coach and a PFC and you disregard the BSR, even on a non-USPA DZ...kiss your USPA Coach rating goodbye. whats the difference between a wsi(i assume that means wing suit instructor) and pfc (phoenix fly coach)? and why is one bullshit adn the other not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #14 February 11, 2011 WSI is a 'self-tagged' individual label that has no program, syllabus, peer review, etc. PFC or BMI is a manufacturer's rating that have a written syllabus, consistent training program, and is recognized (in general) by the skydiving community. In other words, the differences are fairly obvious to most. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #15 February 12, 2011 QuoteDo you let him on your plane or not? When it comes to foreign jumpers, rules that follow them from their home country are put in writing, reserve repacks being a good example. Because it's not a matter of following the local regs for a jump made in that locality, it's an exception, and put in writing because of it. Anything not specifically down in writing as being an exception just falls back to the default position of following the rules/regs for the locality where the jump is made. A USPA DZ in the US needs to conform to the regs of the USPA and the FAA, so all jumps made there must toe those two lines. In the end, the DZO really only has to answer to the USPA and the FAA, so they do what it takes to make them happy, not the odd visiting jumper looking for some special treatment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DARK 0 #16 February 12, 2011 QuoteWSI is a 'self-tagged' individual label that has no program, syllabus, peer review, etc. PFC or BMI is a manufacturer's rating that have a written syllabus, consistent training program, and is recognized (in general) by the skydiving community. In other words, the differences are fairly obvious to most. cool that makes sense, sorry to hijack the thread. what does bmi stand for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsalot-2 2 #17 February 12, 2011 I don't have a copy of the BSR's, but don't you also need 185 jumps in the preceeding one year to be current enough just to take a First Wingsuit Course ? No matter how many jumps you have ( over 200 ) ?Life is short ... jump often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #18 February 12, 2011 QuoteI don't have a copy of the BSR's, but don't you also need 185 jumps in the preceeding one year to be current enough just to take a First Wingsuit Course ? No matter how many jumps you have ( over 200 ) ? No. The BSR is a flat 200. It would have been preferred to have it read 200 in the preceding 18 months, but that wasn't gonna fly. So... The BSR is 200 jumps. Period. The recommendation remains 200 jumps in the previous 18 months and with a coach, or 500 flat with or without a coach. BTW, we/I didn't let this guy fly either. We had a good talk about his bridle as well, and he's having it shortened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #19 February 12, 2011 QuoteBTW, we/I didn't let this guy fly either. We had a good talk about his bridle as well, and he's having it shortened. Is there any legitimate reason to have such a long bridle? Assuming not... why would any rigger make one for somebody?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #20 February 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteI don't have a copy of the BSR's, but don't you also need 185 jumps in the preceeding one year to be current enough just to take a First Wingsuit Course ? No matter how many jumps you have ( over 200 ) ? No. The BSR is a flat 200. It would have been preferred to have it read 200 in the preceding 18 months, but that wasn't gonna fly. So... The BSR is 200 jumps. Period. The recommendation remains 200 jumps in the previous 18 months and with a coach, or 500 flat with or without a coach. BTW, we/I didn't let this guy fly either. We had a good talk about his bridle as well, and he's having it shortened. This opens an interesting can of worms because the BSR's state: "Any person performing a wingsuit jump must have at least 200 skydives, and hold a current USPA license." So I think the jump number question is clear. You need 200, and that's it. Technically, a person with 200 jumps does not need an instructor at all. And, it doesn't matter if a person has 500 wingsuit base jumps and 100 WS from a plane, if they don't have 200 skydives, it's a no go. Now for the interesting part... A USPA licence is required to jump a wingsuit at USPA drop zones! I've read it a bunch of times, but this it the first time that little item regestered. Hmmmm.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #21 February 12, 2011 QuoteThis is really a question for DZO's but curious about this audience's feedback. A foreigner shows up on your DZ with an S-bird, a logbook signed by a "WSI" and 157 jumps. His home county's rules on wingsuiting asks for 500 jumps. Although it's not part of the considerations, he also has a 12' bridle, never jumped. Do you let him on your plane or not? What does the type of suit and length of bridle have to do with it? It's just as much against the BSR if he has a Classic II and a 7' bridle.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #22 February 12, 2011 QuoteWhat does the type of suit and length of bridle have to do with it? It's just as much against the BSR if he has a Classic II and a 7' bridle. Going 5mph over the speed limit is also against the law, but not likely to get you pulled over. Your point is valid, but the counterpoint is that it's much easier to be the bad cop when the person in question is miles beyond the limit.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hjumper33 0 #23 February 12, 2011 The biggest and most sited non-uspa dropzone is pretty darn strict about the 200 rule as well. Also, you have to get a briefing and a signed off by an experienced pilot that your dumb ass isnt going to land off and ruin wingsuiting for everyone. What if he did his first WS jump when it wasnt actually a BSR, is he grandfathered in? I did my first with slightly less than the recommended, but Im a super hardcore badass, but that was then there wasnt a rule. What is I had 40 wingsuit jumps when it was fine, but only a total of 190 jumps? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #24 February 12, 2011 Quote Now for the interesting part... A USPA licence is required to jump a wingsuit at USPA drop zones! I've read it a bunch of times, but this it the first time that little item regestered. Hmmmm. Forgive me for not understanding your point, Ed. A USPA license is required to jump with or without a wingsuit at a USPA GM Dropzone. You must join USPA or possess an FAI (reciprocal) equivalent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #25 February 12, 2011 Well, it doesn't say: "be the holder of a current USPA license or its accepted foreign equivalent" Maybe it should, as it does in other parts of the SIM.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
