What would *you* do?

[ORGASMO 0]

Please do not infer my posts are ever meant to be logical...... logic and common sense are not very common
I do see your point and I would really hate to try and fit 300' of bridle in my BOC.

ORGASMO RODRIGUEZ
If your gunna be dumb
You better be tough

[BlindBrick 0]

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~PCA="Pilot Chute Assist." A static line for BASE jumpers.

Actually, PCA is more like IAD for BASE. I know BASE jumpers who did actual static line stuff on sub-200 ft. jumps and they were using some type of break cord.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[DSE 3]

True enough. I wasn't considering using a break cable as static line and PCA as IAD. That's a better comparison.

[jtnesbitt 0]

Technically, an IAD is more like a FFA in BASE.

FFA - FreeFall Assist - Someone tosses your PC after you to ensure it's not gonna get snagged. (This also happens accidently sometimes when someone means to give a PCA but "drops" the jumper.)

PCA - Pilot Chute Assist - Someone holds the bridle and PC of the jumper while they exit. Once the pins have popped and the canopy is extracted and beginning to inflate the PCAer lets go. (Also known as the chick shit assist.)

SL - Static Line - Jumper uses breakcord (typically 80lb) to assist in a solo jump when there is no PCAer available. They essentially tie their bridle to the breakcord then to th exit point. They jump, pins pop, lines stretch, and the breakcord breaks at 80lbs of pressure.

SLs arent necessarily just for sub 200 stuff, it's mainly used when you are jumping by yourself and arent comfortable with a freefall. I use it frequently at a 160ft bridge because no one ever wants to climb down from the 190ft platform to give me PCA.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[BlindBrick 0]

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breaks at 80lbs of pressure

Thanks. I was thinking it was 80#, but I wasnt' sure and didnt' want someone going in because they'd got a wrong number from my post.


-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[jumpsalot-2 2]

I haven't heard this said yet, so I'll say it. Bottom line, make SURE to get your pilot chute into clean air. Grab it without hesitation, and throw it Vigorously out to the side into the clean air. As for the Off Subject of "Break Tape" I have done alot of them (static line), I always use my largest PC ( 48 inch ) as a back up, just in case of miss rigging or low tension breaking of the tape (less than 80 #) due to sharp edges or using a long section of tape. There should be NO SLACK in the tape. Tying the Bridle directly to the object ( loosen the Knot alittle where bridle meets PC and thread the break tape thru that bridle knot and re-tighten, then tye the two ends around object Tightly = no slack) Asylum BASE sells a great Static Line Adapter that I use also. As for GoPro, I've used one on the back of my Left heal on lots of WS jumps and never had a problem, but did have one S/T guy say something about it last week. Entanglement problems. It does get great video in that position.

Life is short ... jump often.

[kallend 1,621]

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A S-Bird is isn't over any limit.

Sure it is. Not all lines in the sand ("limits") are drawn by the USPA. Someone looking to enforce safety at a DZ has to consider ALL the aspects.

The situation as presented:
A guy with 150 jumps is crossing 3 lines:
1) A wingsuit under 200 skydives (USPA line)
2) S-Bird under 50 wingsuit jumps (wingsuit mfr line)

You assume too much. He may have made 50 S-Bird jumps for all we know. Maybe he's done a lot of WS BASE in a S-Bird. The OP said nothing about how many WS jumps he has, and BASE wouldn't be in his skydiving log book.

No idea of how many BASE jumps he has, nor do I care how many WS jujmps he has.
A-Objects don't have relative wind of 80kts or faster (saw one "hot shit" base jumper unable to exit an aircraft very well with their Xbird, after bragging about their 500 BASE jumps).

B-USPA BSR is 200 jumps.
Was an easy, easy call to make. Especially when the bridle was seen laid out on a packing mat.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't see how the TYPE of suit affects the issue as stated in the OP. It's a BSR violation even in a BM Classic.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mccordia 73]

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I just don't see how the TYPE of suit affects the issue

If I sell a Stealth to a newby with 201 jumps or a Prodigy, both are not a violation of any BSR. But the first one is clearly a whole other issue (related to the experience level each model/type demands, which said flyer didnt have).

Be it his choice or the dealer who sold it to him...not BSRs...just not smart..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[DSE 3]

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I haven't heard this said yet, so I'll say it. Bottom line, make SURE to get your pilot chute into clean air. Grab it without hesitation, and throw it Vigorously out to the side into the clean air.

Minor point, but it is also possible to throw "too hard" and create an off-heading opening.

[The111 0]

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Minor point, but it is also possible to throw "too hard" and create an off-heading opening.

Not sure I buy that, just thinking about it hypothetically.

Nor have I seen it actually happen... have you?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[LouDiamond 1]

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What is the perfect length then? Mine is 9.5 feet. Do you think it is the length or a combo of length and handle type?

I wonder if it is a freak thing that could happen on any bridle length. I don't have answers here, just questions.

Tom Aeillo had a few threads on this when the BASE forum used to be on this site circa 2004-5.This subject came up in this forum and Tom had this input on Long bridles.
One might be able to find more of Tom's knowledge on this over on the BASE forum via a search I believe.

Coincidently, I have also had the opportunity to be involved with testing bridle lengths out for a military system that we used a longer than 9' bridle to try and alleviate the spring loaded PC getting caught in the burble. We also applied the longer than 9' bridles to a BOC type system. We've also tested out bridle lengths for cargo loads and again we discovered longer was not better. As has been stated, it creates different issues( entanglement on itself,on other parts(while in freefall and once under canopy), increased whipping around (delay)while inside the burble, etc). We also ran some CFD scenarios on the issue and whether it's a man or a large piece of square/odd shaped cargo, 9' seems to be the magic number where you get a more consistent and predictable air flow around/behind objects that allows the PC to get the optimal inflation for PC or for drogues.

Now does that mean 9.5' or 10' is too much? I would have to say it's probably not too big of a deal but I do know that once you go past 10' things can get interesting and I wouldn't advocate using anything past 9' as a rule of thumb.

In the same thought process as this, PC size can get to the point of being too big for skydiving and again Tom has some really good info on PC sizes. In fact, there is a BASE PC "guide" of sorts that I've seen a few times that is really helpful in BASE but again, bigger/smaller isn't necessarily better in the skydiving environment.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[kallend 1,621]

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I just don't see how the TYPE of suit affects the issue

If I sell a Stealth to a newby with 201 jumps or a Prodigy, both are not a violation of any BSR.

Irrelevant. The parameters of THIS thread involve someone with <200 jumos, not 201 jumps.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DSE 3]

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Minor point, but it is also possible to throw "too hard" and create an off-heading opening.

Not sure I buy that, just thinking about it hypothetically.

Nor have I seen it actually happen... have you?

Not only have I seen it happen, made it happen...there is also video and photo, one of which is on the wall of the wingsuit room in Elsinore.

Speaking with John Leblanc about it today, he pointed out several "corrections" that appear when testing canopies and changing how hard the PC is tossed, why pullouts have particular problems from the angle of the PC when it inflates, why even different methods of folding the PC can have an impact on the opening and centering of the PC/bridle at opening.
Similar comments from a few others as well.

[bodypilot1 0]

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Minor point, but it is also possible to throw "too hard" and create an off-heading opening.

And how would that ever happen? After pin extration from the closing loop, the pilot chute would still have to be traveling at the right angle of your throw? I'd pay to see a throw that hard.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[DSE 3]

You can pitch your body to one side if you generate a greater intertia on one side over the other.

[bodypilot1 0]

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Because it can pitch your body to one side if you generate that sort of inertia.

How would that be, if you are pitching symmetrically with both arms as taught?

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[DSE 3]

you truly think you are of equal strength in both arms?
Not likely.

[bodypilot1 0]

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you truly think you are of equal strength in both arms?
Not likely.

Absolutely yes, if your asking me directly. Even if your throw was harder with your right arm, you should be able to fly stable through the opening. If not, there are other stability issues that may be the cause of an off heading opening.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[The111 0]

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You can pitch your body to one side if you generate a greater intertia on one side over the other.

I misunderstood your original point... I thought you meant the PC could be pulling from an angle if you threw it hard enough.

Now that I understand what you meant, I think I'm with Ed. I understand that throwing too hard could cause *someone* hypothetically to go unstable... but this is more a skill/stability issue than an issue of physical deployment dynamics.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[DSE 3]

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Now that I understand what you meant, I think I'm with Ed. I understand that throwing too hard could cause *someone* hypothetically to go unstable...

I'm glad you understand my point, even if you disagree. Video, photos. and input from folks like John LeBlanc, Bill Booth, and several others support what I've said. I won't call it conclusive, but certainly a point of consideration.

[michalm21 0]

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What was your concern regarding the biriddle length?

You wouldn't be concerned about a 12' bridle?

[edit to add photo]
Here is what can happen with a bridle that is too lengthy. It's not all that can happen, but is one thing that can easily happen. I wish we'd gotten video of this one, because it was so strange (only 2 days ago)

Spot, I believe that's also the cause of death of 2 BASE jumpers so far (If I recall one was wingsuit, was was tracking), but it most likely has nothing to do with the length of the bridle, but the technique of the pitch...

here is a post from Tom Aiello:

The cause of bridle knots (and bridle-over malfunctions) is almost invariably pitch technique, not bridle length.

If you are getting knots in the bridle, the problem is how you are throwing the PC, not the length of your bridle.

If you flick your wrist as you release the PC (99% of the world's skydivers and 95% of the world's BASE jumpers do this), you will spin the PC so that the "flailing wad of bridle" precedes the PC to bridle extension. When this happens there is a small chance that the PC will interact with the bridle in a negative way, usually developing a bridle knot (but very, very occasionally causing a bridle/PC entanglement).

The fix to this problem is to improve your pitch technique so that the PC/bridle bundle moves to full bridle extension in good order, with the PC leading, apex first, followed by the bridle. Most people find it's easier to achieve this by making one of two modifications. They either:

a) switch their grip to "underhanded" so that they are wrapping the "web" of their hand around the "bulb" instead of palming the apex of the PC, or;

b) cocking their wrist backward as they release the PC, to create a shot putting type motion rather than a flicking motion.

It can also be helpful to think about delivering the PC toward your feet (only if you are flat--this can be quite dangerous if you are still head high), rather than your head.

I spend about 30 minutes on this material in my First Jump Courses, and I believe that everyone should know (and review) it.


edit to add: Note that there are also possible packing, rigging and gear modification fixes to this issue, for example packing the bridle into the pouch before the PC, or creating a "bridle pocket" that stages the bridle behind the PC and separate from it.

http://www.basejumper.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2920216#2920216

[Sam_Adams 0]

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The cause of bridle knots (and bridle-over malfunctions) is almost invariably pitch technique, not bridle length.

If you are getting knots in the bridle, the problem is how you are throwing the PC, not the length of your bridle.

true! there have been documented incidents with bridle knots with standart length bridles as well. and thinking about the laws of physics the above mentioned explanation makes absolut sense.

i use myself a longer than standard bridle and bigger pilotchute from upt and it works perfect for me.

You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?"

[mccordia 73]

Bridle knots in my view seem to be more related to the type of handle and its weight (usually heavy hackeyball, with single attachment point) than the bridle length or throwing technique.

Every single deployment has some weird moments regarding what the pilotchute and bridle do. The moment it has something to catch/grab while it does so...thats where things gets scary....

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Bridle knots in my view seem to be more related to the type of handle and its weight (usually heavy hackeyball, with single attachment point) than the bridle length or throwing technique.

I did switch back to standard WS deployment method when I started to jump my Stealth. After I had couple of knotted deployments I switch to full flight deployment. I have not get knotted bridle anymore. Same gear: Triathlon 160, Bird-Man PC with long bridle and leather hackey. I think cleaner air-flow is better on deployment than a huge burble.

[kleggo 138]

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What was your concern regarding the biriddle length?

some possible concerns that come to mind;
1. possible increased risk of entanglement / knotting during extraction from the pouch?
2. increased snatch force that may lead to canopy bridle attachment point damage?
3. it's different and not well tested?
4. bad idea for after deployment CReW

just answering as an exercise because i don't know definitively why 12ft is bad.

Craig