What would you prefer in your jumping partners regarding attitude towards AADs

[mccordia 73]

Whats all this about?
In the past years, Ive seen several incidents in wingsuit flying. Be it on video, or seeing it happen in front of my own eyes in freefall. People getting hit, and loosing conciousness for a short while or breaking limbs. People going into unstable spins and not taking the correct (timely) actions to get out of it. etc. etc.

In three seperate events, I later heard that the subject didnt have an AAD. And in all cases, their wingman later commented coming very close to the point where they would fly into their buddy. Trying to help, stop the spin, pull or do whatever. With the very concious 'I knew he/she didnt have an AAD'

Some background information
First, know that in any form of skydiving, there are safety margins.
In AFF, a jumpmaster will only chase a student so low. But at some point he has to save himself. And hard-deck is hard deck.
Though the intent may be good, placing yourself in harms way to try and help a friend is only adding more danger to the outcome.

If someone is spinning, diving into them will not fix things. It may even make things worse, as you may know both him and you out cold. or break arms, legs or worse...necks or backs (plural!).
So I do hope everyone does the smart thing here. Let your buddy fix his/her problem, and you deal with yours.

But that said. Seeing a friend incapacitated, or unable to do anything, I have no clue how I would react in a real life situation.
And that brings me back to the above point.

Getting to the point..
Do jumpers trying new suits, manouvers (or even 'regular' formation jumps) ever think about what risk and emotional burdon they (unwillingly) put on their jumping partners shoulders, in case of an emergency.

If you dont jump with an AAD, and expect people to let you 'spin to the ground' following a bump or unstable situation in the worst case scenario. And could you honestly say you'd do the same if it happened to your friend? Doing the wise thing, and doing nothing?
Or would you still do the stupid thing, and dive after them to try and get a canopy out, or stop the unconcious person from spinning in hopes they regain control over their skydive?

Some final words
Im not trying to condemn or judge anyone.
I have made non AAD jumps in the past myself, for various reasons (practical ones...) but use an AAD (brand not important) on 99,999 % of my skydives. The reasons for using a not using one are not what I want to discuss.

But what I do want to ask/raise, is....do any of the non AAD jumpers ever concider the above scenario, and the moral (and safety) dilema they are putting friends in, when they get into a tight corner themselves?

Is this something known or discussed among jumping partners?
Jumping with non AAD flyers, do you ever think about the emergency situations that may arrise?


very interested in hearing views and oppinions.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[tjm 0]

I'd say well over 80% of the jumpers I jump with (small dz in Louisiana) jumps with no AAD. So, If one gets knocked out, try to save him only if there is sufficent altitude other than that hes on his own. Sucks but a choice we all make for various reasons. Skydiving isn't a carnival ride, you must save your own arse. If it was safe everybody would do it.

If one of us gets close to smashing into another or does in fact smash into us with noone harmed, we sternly remind him of the possible outcomes that could have happened due to us not wearing an AADs then say its not a big deal and go have some more fun and learn from it.

Although it would be a hell of thing to watch your friend go in.

If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

[DSE 3]

You're at 7k. Buddy is attempting backfly in his big suit. He starts to spin out of control. You watch him til around 5k and choose to dive in to stop his spin.

At about the same point, he decides the smart move is to get under canopy regardless of the line twist risk, and either pitches main or reserve. There is no way to know when a panicking person might deploy one or the other canopy.
There may now be two injured/dead skydivers instead of potentially one.

This is precisely why coaches are not allowed to assist students and in my opinion, this carries over to wingsuiting/spins.

I don't have an opinion on whether people should or shouldn't have an AAD. I have one in my rig, but that's partially because I travel a lot and many DZ's require them.
But if you're not using one, I believe the risk should remain exclusively your own and others should be playing hero.

[mccordia 73]

Im on the same page with DSE here. As that was the issue I was most concerned about. Seeing someone 'assist' a killing him/herself in the process.

The choice to jump with or without an AAD is not mine to make. Though being aware of that, it COULD be a thing that has me back out of organising a big load.

Though AAD's should for sure not be manditory, I do think they are a piece of must have gear on bigways and other similar flocking mayhem with high potential for collisions..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Stuuu 0]

The question that arises is- the jumper may have a AAD but who makes sure it is turned on?

[yeyo 1]

Quote

Though AAD's should for sure not be manditory, I do think they are a piece of must have gear on bigways and other similar flocking mayhem with high potential for collisions..

I dont have AAD and thats the only reason Im not participating on medium/big ways. Im ok with 6-8 ways, but bigger than that I have to pass. I took this decision about 2yrs ago after a near-miss that was gonna hurt. ye I know, Im a BIg PusSIe.

This is also a way so that my friends dont have to think if they go after my unconscious ass or not.
I broke my rule 6 months ago with a 12way and I survived

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[kallend 1,623]

The risk/benefit ratio clearly gives advantage to the AAD. If you can afford one, not using one is pretty silly.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[piisfish 135]

to me, it's "to each his own".

now I know people who have an AAD (same brand as you and me Jarno), and who don't want to turn them on on WS jumps as "you usually pull lower with a WS and don't want to risk a 2 out"

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Titanium_Gecko 0]

Good thought provoking topic, Jarno!

I have only ever jumped with an ADD and bought a secondhand unit this month to keep jumping as my current one life expired.

For me, it's a personal choice, an ADD is mitigation only with training, experience and equipment inspection/maintenance providing the prevention and protection. I also have to have an ADD to jump in funny places.

It's not something I hear discussed often unless people are suddenly required to have one for a demo jump or similar etc.

Have I ever felt an emotional burden or been in a situation deciding to help others? No
How would I react if I ever was in that situation? I don't know
Have I ever been helpless watching an event unfold (from the ground)? Yes and an ADD provided the save.
Have I been on the recieving end of help? Yes, on my 23rd jump when a instructor had to help my main deploy, whilst 2k about ADD height.

Ross

www.gathhelmets.co.uk
www.flyyourbody.com

[tjm 0]

This is a video with me and a buddy I filmed last weekend. I got hit hard enough to get knocked out.

Judging from the beginning of the jump, that floating bastard wouldn't have been able to save me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MT_7dAZN_U

If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

[notsane 0]

If you have a wife and kids, an AAD is CHEAP life insurance, as opposed to the DEATH insurance that companies sell.

If you're single ... well, there's no one to miss you for that long. I made probably 1500 non-AAD jumps.

Don't expect to be chased to the ground, though. If you pass 2 grand, you're on your own.

I've watched several people spin like tops in freefall while I thought "I wonder what I'm going to tell his wife?"

[BenediktDE 2]

Quote

do any of the non AAD jumpers ever concider the above scenario, and the moral (and safety) dilema they are putting friends in, when they get into a tight corner themselves?

Moral aside there is also a legal dilema. If you hit your buddy out and he lands (maye injured) under his AAD deployed reserve you legaly might have commited bodily injury. Likely your buddy won't sue you.
If he hits the ground still blacked out without any canopy out things appear different: There WILL be an investigation! And you are in.

So the question is not only if you want to put your buddy in a bad situation emotionally but also in a judicial one.

Too bad you can't check two boxes in this poll...

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

In case any of you do not know me personally, skydiving instruction is what I do for a living. I have been a rated jumpmaster/instructor since 1982. I possess an AFF-I, SL-I, Tandem-I (three manufacturers), am PRO rated, and am an S&TA. Never mind the fact that I am instructor rated by three wingsuit manufacturers and am BMCI/Examiner rated by two.

At any rate, coming from that frame of mind I can tell you in no uncertain terms that jumping without an AAD these days is akin to telling a gay guy that it's cool to fuck without a rubber. If your life is worth less than $1,200 dollars then go for it. If not, then buy an AAD. If, God help you, you DO get hit so hard in freefall that you get knocked out, would you rather the recovery party find you intact under a fully-deployed reserve, or would you prefer they find a ball of jelly on the ground. I, for one, have walked up on both scenarios and I can tell you with 100% certainty that it's much more pleasant to recover a body which has landed under a canopy.

I jumped for 18 years without an AAD and it didn't bug me one bit. The AAD options back then were not ellegant, misfired often, and were generally scorned by experienced jumpers. it's been over 13 years since the introduction of the CYPRES AAD. They are small, work EVERY time, and are not so expensive that a skydiver can't afford them. I got my first one 13 years ago when my Dad got his first one. He was getting older, was having occasional "faint" moments, and realized that he ought not be jumping with students without one. That Christmas he bought him one, me one, and my youngest sister one. That first unit "expired" about a year ago and I just replaced it with another AAD (a Vigil 2).

At our dropzone if you are working with students you must have an AAD in your rig. No exceptions whatsoever. If you cannot afford one, then the DZ will buy you one and you can pay them back.

As far as wingsuiting goes, the very-first BirdMan wingsuit FFC brief included a blurb about how it MIGHT be possible for you to fly right through your AAD "wake up" altitude and for it not to function due to the low vertical speed in a wingsuit. In the decade since that original course sylabus I will tell you that there have been a total of zero incidents where a wingsuit student has flown through that altitude and had an AAD not function. Quite the contrary: If you go tumbling through your arming altitude in a wingsuit in a spin then your AAD will absolutely function. The ONLY time I can recall where an AAD may not have saved an individual is the death of Chris Martin who, at the time, was the 2nd most experienced wingsuit pilot on the planet. He was unconscious under a 21 square foot canopy which brake-fired upon opening. That is an absolute anomoly though because he did not intend to land that canopy.

Ultimately, you are doing yourself a disservice if you are too cheap to buy a modern AAD. Your life IS worth the cost of the device. I know MINE is. I own five rigs and all are equipped with AAD's.

That is all,

Chuck Blue, D-12501

[SuperGirl 0]

Quote

At any rate, coming from that frame of mind I can tell you in no uncertain terms that jumping without an AAD these days is akin to telling a gay guy that it's cool to fuck without a rubber. If your life is worth less than $1,200 dollars then go for it. If not, then buy an AAD.

couldn't agree more.
also... for all who like to whine that you don't have 1200 for an AAD... ya know, you don't need to always buy a new one. my cypres is expiring next month... no I don't have money for a brand new one at this moment, but I will not jump without one either. so I just got another used one, a few hundred bucks and it'll be good for another 4 years or so... then I can worry about either a new one or another used one, depending on how money goes... with the combat wingsuiting we do, I couldn't imagine jumping without one.
seen too many close calls to want to take that risk.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Thanks for the back-up Andrea and Scott. It's common sense. We, in wingsuits, are adding an added level of complexity to our skydives. You know, my deployment altitude for my first 800 wingsuit jumps was 4000 feet. I still don't normally deploy much below that because the meat of the skydive is over and I like to dump high and get my canopy configured for the swoop.

Wingsuit jumps are much like AFF instructor jumps or tandems in that we have that additional factor to deal with. At least that's the way I deal with them as a life-long instructor. January 13th 2011 will be my 30th year anniversary in skydiving. I plan on jumping another 30.

Know what I'm sayin, See what I'm sayin, Feel what I'm Sayin? What are we doing, having a know-what-I'm-Sayinsus?

[SuperGirl 0]

Quote

January 13th 2011 will be my 30th year anniversary in skydiving. I plan on jumping another 30.

holy shit, dude!

let's have a big boogie for that one.

I can already see the boogie ad:
- super otters...
- cool wingsuit jumps...
- demo suits...
- FREE hookers and blow :)

[VectorBoy 0]

- FREE hookers and blow :)

[PhoenixRising 0]

Quote

- FREE hookers and blow :)

The hookers would be complaining that their lives are ruint.

[Zeemax 0]

Chuck Blue ruint my life

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies