low-timer wingsuit flights

[Zeemax 0]

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to tell the truth, I feel quite guilty for breaking them myself; but it happened, and I cannot turn back and change it

You kind of can... Hang up the wingsuit and get some more 'real world' skydiving experience?

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[mccordia 73]

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but at the same time we all know some examples of people who started flying having around 100 jumps, and who've made decent careers in the discipline.

And with one or to exeptions, looking back 99% of them all say the same thing.. It was way to soon, and they wish they would have waited...

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and I believe that many good experts here can admit that people with lower than 200 number of jumps can try and start flying. and I even believe that it's possible to learn things and progress in wingsuit, not in ff or rw suit - just being much more careful and doing slower steps in it.

A lot of things like exits, and once you get into formation flying, aproach, breakoff etc are a lot more demanding than RW/FF, due to much bigger distances and higher relative closing speeds. And made even worse due to a much smaller circle of awereness in terms of visual range.

Explain to me why there is a senseless rush to get into wingsuit flying, yet you want me to believe that when it comes to all the other 'cool' things like flocking/BASE, suddenly those people will develop the sense and patience to do it with the right basis and preperation?

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welcome to crucify me for the rebel against gods and for the unpopular opinion (though I know that some experts agree with me - even though they don't say about it loudly).

There are some people who choose to support you in the path you had already chosen and turned on to. Which is vastly different from having asked them for advice before you started flying, had you supplied them with all the info about your ability to cope with new things within skydiving, and all info about your level at that time.

Though Im sorry I didnt want to do your FFC, and somebody else took you up. I felt even more sorry for you, seeing you come down crying from your first few jumps. And those werent tears from happyness...
Which is sad, as thats not the first jump memory you should have...

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ps. right now I highly recommend my fellow skydivers to wait a little (till the 200)

Thats when you decide with your brian, instead of with your emotions..

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at least not to damage own reputation. but I've had so many arguments with someone having absolutely opposite opinion that I just don't care anymore and just want to express my stupid idea of the question.

That person would be me, and I applaud you for being open about this.

I just think its weird to see someone who seems to totaly breathe and live for wingsuits. Having read every word there is available, and telling everyone exactly how things should be, and wanting to teach this stuff at some point, and then doing a 180 degree turn when it comes to your own actions..

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ppps. I can imagine that by 1000 jumps I'll change the opinion completely. well, then by the time I'll be able to laugh reading the bullshit

As long as its laughing all is fine...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[pilotdave 0]

I bet if you put away the wingsuit and focused your next 50-100 (or more) jumps on RW, you'd be a better wingsuit flyer in the long run. Wingsuit flocks are a form of RW. One problem I've seen is that most of the experienced wingsuit jumpers (the ones that have done pretty much nothing but wingsuit jumps) have no RW background or experience. The principles are the same... But easily ignored when you only focus on flying your suit.

Dave

[NSEMN8R 0]

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And this is where you, that individual and I had this discussion in person for a good deal of time at the bar. It was evident to me during that conversation that the individual mentioned clearly did not know what he did not know based off of his responses and facial expressions during the entire conversation.

Are you serious??? That's the way you remember it?
It's amazing how 2 people can be part of the same conversation and come away with such different memories of it.

Can you give me an example of something that his facial expressions told you he didn't know could happen? Seriously, if there's some giant hole in the training I give I would really like to know about it. Did I really miss something important or do you think you may have misinterpreted his facial expressions?

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In the end, it was clear that he and I shared the same outlook on safety and an instructors responsibility to his students be it WS, tandem or even BASE, which is quite different than yours.

Again, I can't believe this is what you took away from that conversation! I'm starting to wonder if you're one of those guys who wants to be right so bad that they only hear what they want to hear?

He & I both share your outook on safety and an instructor's responsibility to his students when it comes to tandems, but I'm pretty sure you misunderstood something he said (or maybe his facial expressions) if you thought he agreed with you about who can safely fly a wingsuit. In fact, after Summerfest he and I took the other guy I mentioned in my previous post for his first flight together!

As far as Instructor Responsibility in wingsuits and base, you and I will always disagree. IMO the Instructor's responsibility is to give the person ALL the information and the RIGHT information. But it ends there. Everyone is responsible for his own ass once you step out the door or off the edge. They are not tandem students anymore. This is the way it was laid down to me by the people that taught me and I'm really clear about it with anyone I teach. If they can't accept 100% of the responsibility for their performance and the outcome of their actions, I don't want to work with them. They'll have to go find a BMI to teach them cuz as an EGI I'd want nothing to do with teaching someone who isn't ready to accept personal responsibility.

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If being concerned with others well being and safety on skydives makes me uncool then I'm resigned to being uncool.

I know you don't believe it, but I too am concerned with others well being and safety on skydives. That's why I seriously hope you will reply to my question about this supposed huge flaw in the training I gave Dennis. If I left something out I want to know so I can be a better instructor. Because I really do care.

And I still think you're a pretty cool guy. At least in person if not on the internet.

[Bill_K 0]

[ soap box ]
One year ago, I was sitting at something like 150 jumps and found out that Scott G. was going to be coming in 6 weeks to do a FFC and wing suit weekend at my home DZ. There were a couple of guys that said I'd be fine, don't worry about it... I PM'd Scott and talked to him and he asked me a few questions and said we'll see.

I did more reading and long story short, by the time Scott showed up 6 weeks later, I'd met the 200 jumps in the past 18 months requirements and there were no questions. I got to make 6 or 7 WS jumps that weekend. That 200 goal was the carrot that drove me to get'r done.

Having had two interesting WS jumps in 29 that spun me up to the point my risers were crossed and having almost chopped it twice in a WS now, I'm glad that I waited. I'm glad that I spent more time learning to track and learning present and fly my slots on RW jumps better. I'm glad that I'd seen some hard core line twists and the like before I was there in a WS see it for the first time.

I'm still so new that I don't know yet what I don't know, but I do know that I'm learning and I feel like a good foundation to build on and learn from was laid by waiting and making myself 'work' for it to get there, rather than starting earlier. I waited until after 200 to put a camera on for the first time too... I do appreciate Scott G & C, Chris, Sean, Jeff, Marion and all the others that have been coaching me, and teaching me. I listen when they say to try this or do this or do that. I really want to learn a LOT more and I want to see WS'ing become more popular and safer at the same time.

[/ soap box off ]

PS. I'm selling my Acro to fund a new WS btw if anybody is wondering...

[bodypilot1 0]

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I think when it comes to big boogies and formations, more experienced flyers should just pay more attention to newcomers' experience. if you believe that someone if not ready to group flying - just don't let the person in the flock. isn't that simple? (or just sounds stupid?)

It is that simple. Unfortunatly some people that are weeded from the flock, for inexperience, get pushed out of shape.
Though the goal is for safety, it is also the goal to have a successful formation.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[bodypilot1 0]

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I bet if you put away the wingsuit and focused your next 50-100 (or more) jumps on RW, you'd be a better wingsuit flyer in the long run. Wingsuit flocks are a form of RW. One problem I've seen is that most of the experienced wingsuit jumpers (the ones that have done pretty much nothing but wingsuit jumps) have no RW background or experience. The principles are the same... But easily ignored when you only focus on flying your suit.

Dave

I agree 100%. Learning the basics for RW will help alot, but learning how to fly on larger RW formations will help immensely. From exit and getting to the formation, flying off of the base, to breaking off in the right sector. Unfortunalty alot of people that put on a wingsuit at 200 or so jumps, never feel they need to learn any other discipline.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[VectorBoy 0]

From exit and getting to the formation, flying off of the base, to breaking off in the right sector. Unfortunalty alot of people that put on a wingsuit at 200 or so jumps, never feel they need to learn any other discipline.

[bodypilot1 0]

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Agree, and I highly recommend ATMO as the other discipline!

Yes, group tracking should help in the bacis as well.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[LouDiamond 1]

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Can you give me an example of something that his facial expressions told you he didn't know could happen? Seriously, if there's some giant hole in the training I give I would really like to know about it. Did I really miss something important or do you think you may have misinterpreted his facial expressions?

Tony, I don't want to re-hash the conversation we had in person as it would serve no purpose. It's not your quality of instruction to him that was in question. It was you decision process as a mentor to him and your implied responsibilities that you felt you had no obligation to follow through with. It was during that portion of the discussion that it was apparent to me, that he and I had a similar outlook as opposed to your stated outlook.

It's not a question about being responsible for your own ass, it's about that individual biting off more than he can chew and the mentor/instructor not telling that person that they aren't ready yet. Just because someone steps up to the plate and says I wanna go, doesn't mean they necessarily know what they are getting into or if it's beyond them at that point in time. There is no question that everyone is ultimately responsible for themselves but as an instructor or a mentor to a person you have a responsibility to look out for that persons best interest,especially when it is clear they don't know what they don't know yet. Thats all that I am saying.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[JohanW 0]

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.. it's just not that hard to do it without dying. Even when things go badly. With the right gear in the right environment it's just really no big deal.

I do not agree with you on this point. Empathically very much *NOT*.

It's not just another jump.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[mccordia 73]

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in the right environment it's just really no big deal

If skydiving (and to a much bigger degree BASE) was a static environment..maybe..

But its quite dynamic, and there will always be something unexpected..be it a high canopy, cloud, tumble on exit, other flyer in the air (who does stick to his flight plan when your new flyer doesnt, and sets up for collision) etc. etc.
And in the hands of the un-experienced, these factors can develop into scary or even potentialy lethal situations...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[NSEMN8R 0]

When I said no big deal I didn't mean it was totally foolproof 100% guaranteed nobody is going to get hurt... I just mean it's no more dangerous than alot of other stuff that goes on up there.

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high canopy, cloud, tumble on exit, other flyer in the air (who does stick to his flight plan when your new flyer doesnt, and sets up for collision) etc. etc.

All that stuff can happen to a freeflier too. I've seen people trying to learn to fly head down cover HUGE horizontal distances. In fact I'd say that for someone with low jump numbers learning HD flying is way more dangerous than wingsuiting.

But we don't tell them not to freefly. We tell them to get coaching.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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All that stuff can happen to a freeflier too. I've seen people trying to learn to fly head down cover HUGE horizontal distances. In fact I'd say that for someone with low jump numbers learning HD flying is way more dangerous than wingsuiting.

But we don't tell them not to freefly. We tell them to get coaching.

Very well said.

If he(she?) did not have the suit of his(her) dream I'd recommend some suit like Birdman Impact. They have amazing performance and fun to fly. That can be the closest thing to wing suit flying and they can be in a flock.

I got some flocking with Impact flier in the base. It was great fun and challenge to fly formation with her. Only a snob would not fly with Impact fliers. Who cares about freefall delay and performance if you can flock?

[mccordia 73]

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In fact I'd say that for someone with low jump numbers learning HD flying is way more dangerous than wingsuiting.

But we don't tell them not to freefly. We tell them to get coaching.

100% agreed...you tell them to get coaching in their flying, untill they reach the skilllevel where they can safely fly HD, with full awereness of whats happening around them..

Just like I tell someone with barerly any skydiving experience at all to get some more jumps and/or coaching...just not in a wingsuit yet...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Hagen 0]

[NSEMN8R 0]

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you tell them to get coaching in their flying, untill they reach the skilllevel where they can safely fly HD, with full awereness of whats happening around them..

This is weird. I actually agree with you 100% too. That's what any responsible instructor or coach should do.

And if a guy with 100 jumps and a solid sit wants to pay a FF coach to teach him head down, how many FF coaches do you think would tell him to come back when he has 250 jumps because he doesn't have the awareness yet?

Do you think the FF coach is going to worry about Scott's "Butterfly Effect" and what happens when he goes home to practice it at his own DZ? I think most coaches would give the guy a good briefing tell him to stay perpendicular to the line of flight when he tries it alone and explain that he can cover a lot of ground very quickly if hes backsliding or something... take him out the door and hold him upside down so he can feel what it's supposed to feel like and send him on his way hoping he takes the advice about not sliding into other groups.

At least that's what happened to me when I was coming up on 100 jumps. And I doubt anyone would call the guy who taught me irresponsible.

Why is what we're doing now so much more dangerous? I still say that with the right gear and in the right environment, it doesn't have to be.

[bdrake529 0]

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And if a guy with 100 jumps and a solid sit wants to pay a FF coach to teach him head down, how many FF coaches do you think would tell him to come back when he has 250 jumps because he doesn't have the awareness yet?

Actually, all the really good/respected FF coaches I've met at Elsinore and Perris (I've been to quite a few of their freefly coaching camps) require you to have your sit nailed before they teach you head down. Same with tunnel instructors. Not only do they claim this is a safety thing, but they also recognize that anyone who jumps straight into head down without mastering head up flying is cheating themselves. Their stated opinion, not mine (though I happen to agree).

Brian Drake