Spotting

[Butters 0]

I will be receiving my first wingsuit (Phoenix-Fly Phantom 2) in a couple of days and would appreciate some advice on spotting. I would currently determine the spot by ...

Winds:
12,000ft, 26mph @ 310'
9,000ft, 28mph @ 320'
6,000ft, 25mph @ 305'
3,000ft, 20mph @ 335'

Winds Average:
24.75mph @ 317.5'

Freefall:
8,000ft, 2min (Is 2 a good estimate?)

Freefall Drift:
0.83mile

Freefall Fly: (Is 1.5 a good estimate?)
1.51mile

Canopy:
5,000ft, 5min

Canopy Drift:
2.06mile

Spot:
~3.23mile @ ~317.5'

Is this correct?

PS: If you have question regarding my numbers please feel free to ask.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[mccordia 73]

Its all stuff that should be covered (be it with less math involved) in a first flight course (regardless of which experienced flyer or instructor is teaching you).

The internet is a great resource, but I would highly recomend finding an experienced flyer who can teach and show you these things first hand before the jump, in the door and debriefing after the jumps based on somebody seeing you fly and/or having video.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[JohanW 0]

With those numbers, I wouldn't mind a spot at 317° or 319°.

Much, much more important is to keep in mind you can really fly yourself to a bad opening spot (as opposed to exit spot) if you go off flying into the sunset, instead of keeping an eye on the ground. A mile and a half is conservative (2 minutes is wildly optimistic), the exit spot doesn't really matter. Fly (a pattern) towards your opening spot. Keep in mind you will have drills to perform during your first flight also. On the other hand, going wildly unstable will cost a lot of potential distance, so you should not rely on being able to fly back.

Yes, a coach or instructor should go over this with you beforehand.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[bodypilot1 0]

Like stated above, this should be something covered in your FFC. Dont over analyze it with miles out and degrees of flight, unless your carrying a GPS with you and have a VERY cooperative pilot Find an experienced ws pilot at your dz and go over a flight plan for the typical jumprun at your dz, then talk about possible changes in the jumprun that may happen. Most of all, FIND ALL YOUR OUTS, should you F'up and can make it back to the landing area.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Butters 0]

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Much, much more important is to keep in mind you can really fly yourself to a bad opening spot (as opposed to exit spot) if you go off flying into the sunset, instead of keeping an eye on the ground. A mile and a half is conservative (2 minutes is wildly optimistic), the exit spot doesn't really matter. Fly (a pattern) towards your opening spot. Keep in mind you will have drills to perform during your first flight also. On the other hand, going wildly unstable will cost a lot of potential distance, so you should not rely on being able to fly back.

Ok, I'll scale back on the 2min and the 1.5 glide ratio. Do you think 90sec and 1.0 glide ratio is a good estimate (considering I will be doing drills)?

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Yes, a coach or instructor should go over this with you beforehand.

I won't have a coach or instructor but I should have an experienced wingsuit pilot. Regardless, I'm trying to understand how others determine their spot on a regular (L-Shaped Pattern) dive.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[phoenixlpr 0]

Don't analyze too much! Don't expect too much!
Your instructor will help you and plan your pattern. Don't really expect lot more than a tracking dive and more than 70-90s of free-fall with high opening.

[Butters 0]

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Don't analyze too much! Don't expect too much!
Your instructor will help you and plan your pattern. Don't really expect lot more than a tracking dive and more than 70-90s of free-fall with high opening.

I regularly get 75-80sec tracking (in regular clothes) ... I sure hope I get over 90sec in a wingsuit. Then again, I'm not trying for anything other than a safe dive practicing the basics: spotting, exit, pattern, practice pulls, practice emergency procedures, altitude awareness, and deployment.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I regularly get 75-80sec tracking (in regular clothes) ... I sure hope I get over 90sec in a wingsuit.

I got 64s from 4000m with opening around 1500m for the first flight. I was flying almost in tracking position which seemed to burn in a bit and quite vertical.

Phantom is a really nice and stable suit, I could not manage to get unstable so far.

[LouDiamond 1]

You've already received some good answers about what you should be concerned with if this is your first flight in a WS(although your post doesn't read that way),but to address your ciphering question. The way you figured it appears to be for a HALO (using DKAV)and in a wingsuit it is closer to a HAHO. You also have to remember that you will have a total of 3 legs that you have to figure for as you will be flying a Wingsuit flight pattern and not a ballistic path/wind cone back to the DZ as both HALO and HAHO calculations figure for. Good job on the effort though, most people don't take the time to even begin to understand this stuff.
If it's not your first flight the answer to your question is dependent on you skill level to fly efficiently and your flight pattern. What you calc is good for is the Aircraft magnetic heading and release point from the DIP(desired impact point)which may or may not be what the pilot is flying jump run on. More often than not, Skydiving operations fly a heading and release that differs from what you just figured for. 2 miles past the normal skydiver spot is a good place to start with if you've already have a few WS jumps under your belt and the winds are in the 20kts range at altitude. Again this is just a ball park SWAG until you get familiar with what you are capable of in your suit.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[pilotdave 0]

Like others have said, there's just no need to be so exact. I wouldn't want to plan to open 2 miles from the DZ. Starting off over 3 miles away is really pushing it. Remember, you have control... You don't have to plan everything that precisely because you can fly to where you want to be. Also, don't expect to be maxing out the suit on your first jump. You'll want to play around with it and see what changing your body position does. You're not going for a distance record.

Dave

[Butters 0]

Thank you for the replies.

PS: Yes, it will be my first flight.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[lurch 0]

Agree 100% of the 3 miles part just for emphasis here. 3 miles doesn't sound like much when you say it and its easy to think its no big deal when you get the Florida and Flock U crowd reporting 5 and 6 mile flights...
But the only ones who've done 6+ around here are myself and Justin, both with a lot of time in, a big tailwind, got out 6.5 miles upwind while being flown downwind so we got thrown in the direction of the DZ, huge wings and we barely made it. Under normal conditions for a new bird 3 is waaaay too far, man. 3 miles is far enough that even with a 30 knot upper at your back, if you don't fly very efficiently and with a LOT of wing out you'll see yourself coming up a good mile short and by the time it becomes visible it might be too late to do anything about it. Stick close to home until you get a feel for how far you can go with different flight styles, then venture further from home as your confidence grows.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[JohanW 0]

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Ok, I'll scale back on the 2min and the 1.5 glide ratio. Do you think 90sec and 1.0 glide ratio is a good estimate (considering I will be doing drills)?

For a first flight, I'd let the coach figure that out. Yes, I'm chickening out on giving advice here ..

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I won't have a coach or instructor but I should have an experienced wingsuit pilot.

That's what I meant by 'coach'.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[ScottGray 0]

As a guide, I typically put students out a little over two miles, perhaps less depending on winds. The reason for this is that I have seen a number of students either loose a lot of altitude on exit or in one example fly a cork screw pattern for 5,000 feet. Students should pull high (e.g. 5K), thus 2 miles is fine for a first flight.

I would strongly suggest finding a local instructor or expr wingsuit pilot to do your first flight with. In addition, there is no substitute for jump expr and formal training. Link below is a list of PFIs. From your profile, looks like you are in Wisconsin.

http://www.phoenix-fly.com/pfi_instructors.htm

WSI-5 / PFI-51 / EGI-112 / S-Fly
The Brothers Gray Wing Suit Academy
Contact us for first flight and basic flocking courses at your DZ or boogie.
www.thebrothersgray.com

[Balu 1]

Don 't think too much about distances to fly back to the aerodrome. Take a close spot and if you are stable fly a U-pattern. The first leg leads away from the jump run, the second leg is opposite to the jump run and the third leg leads back to it. By doing this you can balance height versus distance to fly, by varying the length and heading of the tracks. And if even if you get instable and losse some altitude you won't be far out when you open your chute.

And talk to the pilot. Tell him in which direction you want to fly. He shall turn to the other side. Otherwise there is a high risk of getting to close to the plane. Also talk to other wingsuiters one board. If one goes left, the other one goes right.

Enjoy!

1300 Sprünge, 100er Wingsuit Formation, viele nette Menschen kennengelernt, keine Unfälle. Schön war's!

[Zeemax 0]

Why'd you bring up a thread from over a year ago?!

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[The111 0]

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Why'd you bring up a thread from over a year ago?!

Aren't we supposed to applaud him for using the search function?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

NEVER deviate from the planned flight path. NEVER should you, as an individual or as a flock, fly anything other than a 90/90 flight path. the ONLY exceptions to that are if you are a rank novice and you blow your exit. In that circumstance, then, yes, you should right yourself and fly straight back to the DZ. The ONLY reason you would do that is if you blow an exit, are below the flock, and simply cannot make it back to the predetermined opening spot.

Feel free to come to Z-Hills and learn all of this without paying $100 for a DVD

Chuck Blue
D-12501
BMCI-4
AFF/SL/TM-I, PRO, S&TA
Z-Flock Wingsuit School

[Zeemax 0]

Quote

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Why'd you bring up a thread from over a year ago?!

Aren't we supposed to applaud him for using the search function?

Nah, this is the wingsuit forum. In here, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[scottygofast 0]

Feel free to come to Z-Hills and learn all of this without paying $100 for a DVD



But you cant take Chuck or I home with you Like you can with the dvds, and you can always fast forward the dvd when we get boring~ so id say its still worth doing both~ :P

Z Flock #11; Muff #1909; PFI #15, USPA Lifer
Commercial Multi-Inst. Airplane/Rotory
www.flyteskool.ws Aerial Photography

[DSE 3]

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NEVER deviate from the planned flight path. NEVER should you, as an individual or as a flock, fly anything other than a 90/90 flight path. the ONLY exceptions to that are if you are a rank novice and you blow your exit.

I'd respectfully suggest that if you're on a load of wingsuit-only skydivers and the organizer has determined a flight path, that you fly that path, whether it's a single, double, or triple 90.

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In that circumstance, then, yes, you should right yourself and fly straight back to the DZ. The ONLY reason you would do that is if you blow an exit, are below the flock, and simply cannot make it back to the predetermined opening spot.

Had a wingsuiter do exactly this only three days ago, and found himself opening amongst the tandems. Again, I'd respectfully suggest that this isn't an "only, always, never" scenario.
I don't have an 'nth' the experience Chuck does, but it seems that changing your pattern from the flock would be the safer alternative. ie; flock is left hand pattern, you blow the exit and are below; fly a right hand 90/90 instead, to assure avoidance of not only the flock, but other skydivers that may be in the air.

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Feel free to come to Z-Hills and learn all of this without paying $100 for a DVD

Not only does the DVD have a rewind button, but it also won't consume any beer when visiting your home. Bu yeah...if you can make you way to Zhills to learn from Chuck for a few days...it's likely better than learning from a DVD.

[QuietStorm 0]

Butters:

I have a few questions. I am curious about what you were taught about the Basic Parachuting Skill of SPOTTING when you graduated AFF. I'm not picking here.....

Have you ever thrown a Wind Drift Indicator from 2,500 FT and watch it hit the ground downwind? What was the extent of the training provided to you as a student / beginning skydiver on determining "THE SPOT".

How and what where you taught? As part of your training, did you under several varying weather conditions ( different weekends) have to determine your own exit point....or was this made for you?

I'm not picking on you.......just trying to raise an point for discussion. I'm curious what the answer would be for this question posed to ALL of us on this forum.

It just seems to me we have all these turbine planes these days with GPS, the light goes yellow, door opens, look down, and if clear.....we go on green. At some point the light turns red and if necessary there is a go around.

Many people have not had the opportunity to really learn how to "spot"; not their fault.

The aspects of the wingsuit flight path are all very important, making the wingsuit jump more complex than a standard belly fly or freefly skydive.

But learning and maintaining the skill of determining where to get out of the airplane to begin with, without having to rely on a pilot or GPS seems to be a "Lost Art" these days; that really should not be "Lost".

Twenty years ago EVERY experienced skydiver had a solid command of this vital skill and the only people asking questions of how to spot.....where the students.

Most skydivers will just go into oblivion....relying on a pilot and a green light.

But as WINGSUITERS there is a "higher level" of airmanship required.

So this is a good topic for discussion and learning.

[Balu 1]

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Why'd you bring up a thread from over a year ago?!

Because my answer wasn't given, and there might possibly be one more first flight wingsuiter somewhere in the future who is seeking advice here.

The U-pattern is what Rolf taught me on my FFC. So i suppose it is the best for first-time-fliers, even if it might not be the best for experienced wingsuiters and flockers.

1300 Sprünge, 100er Wingsuit Formation, viele nette Menschen kennengelernt, keine Unfälle. Schön war's!

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I like white women,,,,,,,and DVD's

[mnskydiver688 0]

He is an Turbine baby! The only WDI he knows is that green thing by the door that most of the time lights up at a time when he ends up back at the airport. Ha!

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters