Wing Suit Instructor Ratings: Split from Z-Flock Thank You

[VectorBoy 0]

One of the posts that got transferred was relevent

Mccordia wrote:

think (no matter what sport or dicipline) you'll always have these kind of people.
I've seen people with ratings that couldnt fly next to a student if they wanted to...but in the end...the ratings do help sorting out the 'bad apples'.

I replyed:

I disagree on this one. For wingsuiting its not the rating it was time that made the difference. Time proved it was more lucrative to haul meat or do AFF instruction than the pyramid of the BM instructorship/regional dealership if you were not really into it.

Don't get me wrong there is very high quality instructing in wingsuiting available from professionals that do it every day. They have invested in it, their resources are available to you. The Instructor roster may not be your only guide, though be aware.

A good wingsuit instructor probably is really into it, does vast organizing, has many spare personal suits, is immersed in the whole wingsuit scene. Check these items.

Actually I even tease some of my new PFI friends a little. But lately when I go to an event and see some old friends again unless they come up to me and announce their newly minted PFI/BMI I can't tell. See to me they are like they always were, guys helping each other out, giving each other tips, sharing the use of their extra suits. And back at their home DZs getting a new guy in the flock on one of those extra suits. I know beer is being exchanged but I can't say for sure if money is. Just like it was before their rating.

Without boastful grandstanding about their "mad" skills and their open lamenting the shear stupidity of anyone not instructor rated conducting a FFC to anyone in a position of real authority on the DZ who will listen ( recommending to the S&TA what suit a jumper should or should not fly, even though their brand sold that that jumper that suit, already -whoa too late) or their mandating the prescribed proper procedure, even though its pretty common sense stuff and already covered in the manual, to the not so educated rest of the flock, it is getting harder to tell. Because most of these guys are like they were before. In fact they remind me of our group and how we were. A few guys, a few extra suits and the promise, if we continue, of no love from the guys that started it all.

I wouldn't change a thing!Wink

[Buried 0]

Hmm well there is a lot in this thread that deems a reply, so you may need to bare with me for a post or two.

few points to start off with -
-This is a discipline. No other discipline has 'rated' instructors, just what chuck is referring to as 'coaches'.

we are not teaching people who've never skydived or have <150 jumps. (AFF-I and TI ratings are out of scope and do not relate/ is irrelevant to wing suit instruction, other than maybe the idea of a structured instruction/course. Also remember that these recognized USPA ratings were not there 20+ yrs ago. So if it makes you feel better to call it "beginning coaching" other than "instructing" fine by me, but I see no difference.


-I would not endorse people without any thought about training material or little experience instruct a new WS student.

-This 'rating' we are talking about is not recognized by the USPA or other organizations. And these also are experiences skydivers, not skyvirgins so this does not fall into a 'calvin post'.

-Flying a smaller wingsuit, isn't rocket science (yet)

-By no means am I trying to offend those who've done the [initial] work, creating, promoting and training others in the past.

-First people set of people to receive WS 'ratings' were just jumpers who had/shared a passion with some proven skill and vouched by the manufacturer, itself. Sure some people need structure and the comfort of a 'rating' in order to learn from, but there are many who dont.


--------------------------------------------------------------
ED

Quote

this thread should be marked as repost, or in Bonfire.

why you say that? I've found two threads which touch on topic and already do not focus on what we are talking about here. Just seems like some BMI's are specifically bitching and protecting their 'structure' and work.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1312576;

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1304750;

Quote

if skydivers are going to instruct other skydivers to fly wingsuits, have a plan, teach them safely and thoroughly. If you do have a rating or not, and something happens, your probably going to get sued by the relatives anyway, it's the US.

Well, I would doubt it, but in the event it did happen I doubt it would hold up in court.
1) The person would have probably met min requirements set by manufacturers.
2) You training them falls within USPA guidelines/recommendations
3) They pilot accepted the risk going into it. They would have a little time in the sport and at least 200 jumps.
4) This wouldn't be considered 'experimental' especially if training on a tested and proven suit released by manufacturers.
5) You can point to other disciplines and show that there are no ratings, just "Coaches"
6) If you took some time to develop your own training program, that would further help prove it wasn't "i'm going to throw you in a suit and then out of a plane"
What limits PFI's and BMI's liability? Pretty much all of the above and I'm sure the company ties can help too. Not like they make their students sign a waiver, do they? You could easily create one of those too.

Of course people should have a plan when training, if you didn't that would just be ignorance on both parties.


Jarno

Quote

the people currently training new PFI/BMI's are doing top notch work as far as Ive witnissed..

I'm sure they are, but I'm talking about training new WS students, not those who have experience and are trying for a 'rating'.


Mark

Quote

Jeff has first dibs on the WSI program.

I was joking... or was I? Can always call it "BBI" - Body in a Bag Instructor. makes no difference.

Quote

one USPA rating along with brand specific rating to address the uniqueness of the brands.

Sure, maybe one USPA rating, but gain this is a discpline, Wouldn't they just be "manufacturer reps" if they didn't have a "rating". There are some current BMIs (note, not BMCIs) and PFIs know less about that what is going on with their chained to company and how to fly certain suits than experienced fun flyers out there. If they had a brand 'rating' i would expect them to know more.


Ted

Quote

They have to go on credentials, be it either an endorsement from experienced jumpers, or a rating.

sure one or the other. Endorsements from others are usually easy to get for some.


Chuck

Quote

I promise you that Jason Weisberg (AFFI-I, PFI, etc) will tell you that ratings are in fact important.

Certain ratings are important (AFF-I), but WS-I ratings are not. This isn't a discussion about ratings but non recognized WS-I 'ratings'. I dont think he would really disagree with that. They are as important as others make them.. and from what I've experienced around the country, it's not a big deal if you have any form of teaching and a good amount of flying experience

Quote

If you are just out there inventing your own shit without any concept of teaching structure,

Coaches (ie unrated) have 'teaching structure' too, I'd hope, they just dont have ratings.

Quote

If you show up here with the right qualifications (read: real ratings, like my AFF, tandem, SL ratings, and my PRO ticket), then yes, I might run you through the course for free (actually, my cost). Personally, I don't really want to train guys that don't have other ratings these days; It "cheapens" the course. I relish the opportunity to train guys with "names" (like I had as early as 1999) ..........These days, If you have no real ratings, and are not a dealer for the company I evaluate for (BM), then no, you are not going to get rated for free, if at all, even with proven airskills.

To my knowledge Jeff has no ratings - just proven airskills and now i guess dealer/creator, yet you offered to him a BMI rating for free. There's a double standard, i'm not understanding here. way to keep up the 'cheapening'.

Quote

Yes, I believe Jeff has every right to instruct qualified students to fly Tony Suit products.

Sure, I'm since there aren't many differences between Tony, BM, PF suits that a monkey can't comprehend I'm sure he (and others) would do just fine teaching on those suits. You are telling me there a PFI or BMI has never taught (includes post 1st jump training) on a suit other than what their related company sells (maybe they purchased it before training)? Even on an unplanned teaching? doubtful you guys being elite and if you are, that's a shame.

Quote

It was myself and Scott Campos who put the program in
to a logical sequence and testing process that made it the course it is today.

so others can't do the same? I'm sure you taught James and Robi on the sequence/process too, right?

Based upon Mark's (and your) posts, it seems like it would be acceptable to create a Tony-WSI rating. Seems to me that if i start producing my own suits, then take the time to create a instructional program, i can create a 'rating' which would be acceptable to most, yet, it seems that it would make some BMCI's uncomfortable since they are so focused on [their] 'structure'. who's to say that an acceptable structure can't be created by someone else?


If you were going to be at a DZ anyways and someone wanted to be come a BMI that is there, you should offer to train them and offer your skill & knowledge for the cost of your slot and maybe $5 for 'paper work'. The problem with these 'ratings' is that it has turned into more of job for you guys and less of a hobby (truthfully, I mostly see this on the BM side of things). It's about sales, promotion, etc. Some of you guys are just becoming gear peddlers. What's wrong with the reward being a free jump, having another bird in the flock and a seeing a grin ear to ear on the student? There are people like me on here and around the dzs who are happy with that form of promotion for the discipline. I know in the past you started like and then shifted it more of a "job". When you initially moved to zhills it seemed like you were moving back to your original passion and away from the ball and chain, but what you are posting here is quite the contrary, or maybe you are just conflicted or putting on a 'public' dz.com face. You are a BMCI after all.



oh and chuck, I thought you were cool Buy you a beer for your tears at 3.0


*edit since i can't speeeeeeel

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[Buried 0]

Quote

and its mostly the people complaining who are looking at it way to brand-specific...

eh, maybe, yes and no. I think mine and other's comments can both support your and challenge that comment. I'm trying to stay on the lines of the 'rating' vs a specific manufacturer rating. Any reference to a specific rating is an observation of my own and should be taken separately from the 'rating' convo

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Jeff has first dibs on the WSI program.

Jeff may have dibs on that, but I still reserve the right to create the Atmospheric Seagull license program and to found the 1st School of Modern Skyflying(as soon as my trademark on the word Skyflying goes through and I stop this one guy from using that term to describe freeflying).

Aside from the trademark issue, the only thing holding the above back has been finding enough lawn darts for the in air license testing program. Apparently they were banned back in 98 and it's been a real struggle finding enough at garage sales to create a flock of the suckers that testees can maneuver around.

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

why you say that? I've found two threads which touch on topic and already do not focus on what we are talking about here. Just seems like some BMI's are specifically bitching and protecting their 'structure' and work.
http://www.dropzone.com/...um.cgi?post=1312576;

http://www.dropzone.com/...um.cgi?post=1304750;

It's the internet..... People are going to bitch, or seem like they are bitching, just like you are, about instructing without a rating.
Go do it and have fun.

Quote

Well, I would doubt it, but in the event it did happen I doubt it would hold up in court.

Nobody said it would hold up in court. The costs to defend yourself though can be tremendous though.

Quote

Of course people should have a plan when training, if you didn't that would just be ignorance on both parties.

I've seen ignorant people....


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[stratman05 0]

Ed nailed it with the defense costs...it's absurd how much you can lose even when a case gets thrown out.

The manufacturers probably spend an insane amount on insurance because of that (guessing from experience with outdoor companies).

[Buried 0]

Quote

Nobody said it would hold up in court. Crazy The costs to defend yourself though can be tremendous though.

sure, but there are other clauses and such you can include in a waiver to limit your exposure or could get setup as an .INC.
I'd just ask favours from friends

Quote

I've seen ignorant people....Wink

yeah me too.. BTW the noun works fine there. If you would like me to explain it or show you in a grammer book let me know

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[Buried 0]

Quote

Ed nailed it with the defense costs...it's absurd how much you can lose even when a case gets thrown out.

people can represent themselves. sure it may not be wise, but it is a possibility.

Quote

The manufacturers probably spend an insane amount on insurance because of that (guessing from experience with outdoor companies).

possible, but i i'm not sure how this relates. I highly doubt that it would cover BMIs or PFIs, maybe at the BMCI's level, but i doubt that too

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

sure, but there are other clauses and such you can include in a waiver to limit your exposure or could get setup as an .INC.
I'd just ask favours from friends

My wife is a CPA. I think I have that under control....

Quote

yeah me too.. BTW the noun works fine there. If you would like me to explain it or show you in a grammer book let me know

Thanks anyway, or maybe I should change it to "I'm seening more and more ignorant people".....

Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[normiss 622]

e-bay usually has a set...I want them!

[VectorBoy 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1304750;

[Buried 0]

Quote

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1304750;

Riggerrob predicting the future. Check his post in this tread.

[VectorBoy 0]

Oh I did, completely, You are right on man.

The old thread reference where Cloudi tears me a new one was the best most direct ass chewing I've ever experienced on DZ.com. I really love that girl. I hope she is still as passionate about wingsuiting today as years ago.

[Buried 0]

ah, I see. my mistake
yeah well he did/does have a fair prediction and I could see that happening, but i surely hope it doesn't come to that. At this point, at least, I'd actually imagine a decline in new jumpers if it did come to that or these bandit rebal 'instructors' we hear so much about. He was at least right about Tony entering the market. Bev would be interesting tho she doesn't have the infrastructure as tony does so i dont see that happening. Alright this is getting a little side tracked with misc future things and I dont really want to think about the future of instruction right now. we can use another thread if you want to talk about that. I'd like to keep this to PRESENT/NEAR future and about these so called mystical badges of knowledge.. i mean WS 'ratings'

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Just a quick caveat to say that I think it's only proper that anyone who is doing any type of "coaching" in the USA ought to at least possess the bare-minimum USPA Coach rating. You want to call yourself a "coach" because you refuse to allow yourself to believe that manufacturer-specific "ratings" are valid, then at least get off your ass and get a Coach ticket.

I won't train a guy for BMI if he does not possess at least that level of "official" recognition. Not these days anyhow.

Chuck

[voodew1 0]

Chuck makes a very valid point -- if you don't have some sort of USPA rating you really shouldn't be training anyone
Not that you can't as per the USPA SIM but in case of incident you really shouldn't
And by the way we do have 1st time students sign a waiver (from the manufacture)-- the waiver you sign every year at the DZ should cover that for what its worth.
I used to use some BM suits for training but since we (myself,Bob,Theo,& Jenn) have got every size Prodigy known to man and a few Phantom demos on the way we have sold off all of our demo BM suits.

Ed-----I knew I could tweak you, your so easy, I should nickname you Lou


Zach I have the ratings you talk about now but you are still correct and that was a very thought out post above.

If there was ever any doubt about what the ratings are for look at demographics, where the PFIs are the PF suits are sold, where the BMIs are BM suits are sold.
A good example would be ZHills -- they have PFIs and BMIs/BMCIs...............those fuckers have every suit under the sun.

Once again Chuck is not the enemy, over the years he has gone from BM is the only suit to, I fly what ever the fuck I want to whenever I want to --- and I think that is the way it should be. I bet he gets shit from other BMI/BMCI about his Vampire purchase - it seems he has started to fly for him and his fun.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[VectorBoy 0]

Once again Chuck is not the enemy, I bet he gets shit from other BMI/BMCI about his Vampire purchase.

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

Ed-----I knew I could tweak you, your so easy, I should nickname you Lou

Dont worry, you didn't.......

Quote

If there was ever any doubt about what the ratings are for look at demographics, where the PFIs are the PF suits are sold, where the BMIs are BM suits are sold.

I gotta agree with that, though I sell alot more PF suits these days.

Quote

I bet he gets shit from other BMI/BMCI about his Vampire purchase - it seems he has started to fly for him and his fun.

I dout it. I have never been given shit for owning a V2 or any other brand suit for that matter.


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[VectorBoy 0]

I doubt it. I have never been given shit for owning a V2 or any other brand suit for that matter.


Be safe
Ed

[notsane 0]

ohmygodarewestillhavingthisconversation?

and manufacturer wars too?

that's so 2004

[dragon2 0]

LOL well I'm a PFI and jump a S3S

Who cares (well, James might )...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Gadget 0]

Well, for me it's the other way around.I am a BMI with a patch on my V2

If people from Poland are called Poles, why aren't people from Holland called Holes???
My logbook

[dragon2 0]

Euh, since trading suits definately won't work, let's trade patches?!

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Gadget 0]

Nope i'm waiting for James to send methe pfi patch.
Sorry

If people from Poland are called Poles, why aren't people from Holland called Holes???
My logbook

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

What makes you think other BMI's haven't tasted the sweetness of the awesome power of the vampire and want their very own?

That's where you got it wrong, Glen. I go no faster or farther in my Vampire than I do in my S6. My arms don't get as tired in the S6 either, but that does not mean that I don't really like my Vampire. I swap back and forth fairly regularly just to mix things up. I am going to get a Tony Suit as well; I just haven't decided what model I want. This, of course, is totally off-topic and has nothing to do with "instructor ratings."

PS: as someone else has already stated, this horse has been beat to death many times.