First Time Cutting Away Wings

[WatchYourStep 0]

Well this weekend I had my wing cutaway. I have about 15 wingsuit jumps and am jumping a PHI. All of my jumps this far have been getting comfy in the suit. Just flying, no rolls, loops or anything.

On this jump I wanted to start trying new stuff. I had a normal exit and went into flight. I decided to try barrel rolls on the ground. After exit I opened up the wings. I then collapsed my leg wing, and then collapsed my right arm wing. I rolled and opened the wing back up. I thought it felt very good. I tried it again and this time I went into a crazy spin when I opened back up. I balled up for a bit and regained control then opened the wings.

I was at about 6500-6000 so I decided to try it again. The same thing happened except the spin felt faster. I balled up but knew I was getting close to pull altitude. I decided to chop the arm wings. After I did I opened up my arms and kept the leg wing closed. Got stable quickly and deployed. In the saddle by 3500 so no worries (Sabre 2 loaded at 1.08 to 1).

Any ideas why I spun all over the place? I did save the handles so that's good.

"You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out."

[mccordia 73]

Spinning usualy happens when you dont completely close the legwing.
Could it have been that you focussed less on closing the legwing on your 2nd and 3d try?

If you're on your back, and the armwings are closed, the momentum of the roll you started can turn your legwing into a giant propellor, pulling you around like someone took you by the legs and gave you a swing..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[WatchYourStep 0]

Thanks. That could be it. Should I collapse the leg wing to barrel roll or not? Should I reopen the leg wing and whichever arm wing was closed at the same time or not?

Thanks again.

"You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out."

[mccordia 73]

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Thanks. That could be it. Should I collapse the leg wing to barrel roll or not? Should I reopen the leg wing and whichever arm wing was closed at the same time or not?

Thanks again.

Video: How to do Barrel Rolls View Download

Check www.flylikebrick.com for more

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[phoenixlpr 0]

What is the base of the spinning problem? Is that the lack of forward speed?

[WatchYourStep 0]

Thanks Jarno. I don't think I ever closed my other arm wing. The video helps a lot since I don't have any other wingsuit flyers here. Don't worry I do plan on going to get more coaching in the near future.

"You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out."

[mccordia 73]

From what I get, its just the legwing giving you lift (or drag) as you are on your back. And due to your armwings being collapsed, your upper body pulls you into a dive.

If you are perfectly straight, it should just end up being a dive, but most of the time, the body is a bit skewed, and one arm-wing might be opened up a bit more then the other one. And you also have some twisting momentum left from the roll you where making.

Usualy this only ends up giving you a 180 degree turn.

But if your body is also ofset (not lined up with/pointing towards the direction of flight) then your rotation ends up not being a roll, but more like a corkscrew, which just steepens to the point where you are corkscrewing towards the ground on your back (et voila...flatspin)

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[LouDiamond 1]

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I decided to chop the arm wings

I am curious to hear why you felt chopping the arm wings was necessary in this situation. From what you have described, it doesn't sound like it was necessary. Please elaborate.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[WatchYourStep 0]

Because I wasn't comfy in my position. I cut my arm wings and kept my legs together (maybe I closed them more. Maybe the leg wing wasn't collapsed fully and that started the spin.)

Is it ever a bad idea to cut away the wings if you aren't comfy? Could me cutting away my arm wings only caused more problems?

"You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out."

[LouDiamond 1]

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Because I wasn't comfy in my position....s it ever a bad idea to cut away the wings if you aren't comfy? Could me cutting away my arm wings only caused more problems?

Only you know the extent of your spin on that jump and that is why I asked you to elaborate. I am assuming it was a flat spin and not just an unstable tumble. If that is not correct please let me know.

Chopping the wings is a very last resort if you cannot come out of a FLAT SPIN after having balled up and physically attempted to return belly to earth. The key is that you have to make an attempt to roll over belly to earth while balled up as balling up alone may not return you to that orientation. Cutting the arm wings away effectively frees your arms but gives you ZERO control of the arm wing fabric that is flapping around. There is a good example on skydiving movies of a flat spin where the jumper didn't roll over while balled up and cut their arm wings away while in this position. In the video you can actually see the INCREASE in the rate of the spin once the arm wings are cutaway.The people who are still under the misconception that the first thing to do when in a flat spin is to cut the arm wings away, end up spending more time on their backs spinning while fighting to grasp the cutaway handles. Balling up in the fetal position is the first thing one should do as it quickly stops the spin and one can continue flying with minimal altitude loss.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[bch7773 0]

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Cutting the arm wings away effectively frees your arms but gives you ZERO control of the arm wing fabric that is flapping around.

Thats what I was told this weekend by another BMI when I was jumping a Phi too. She said that wing cutaways are last resorts.

EDIT: When I jumped the PF Beginner suit (Prodigy?) and did barrel rolls, I had a wing disconnect on its own. On that suit, I just dropped the opposite wing and pressed them both against the side of my body, and pulled as normal.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[The111 0]

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When I jumped the PF Beginner suit (Prodigy?) and did barrel rolls, I had a wing disconnect on its own.

If you hadn't already figured this out, that wing was almost definitely hooked up wrong.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Martini 0]

I demo'd a Prodigy last year for fun. First thing I did was roll over for a backfly. Both wings instantly disconnected. (someone else had hooked them up, probably incorrectly) Interestingly the suit belly flew just fine with just the legwing extended and the armwings trailing.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[fab777 0]

I had recently my first flat spins, on two consecutives occasions, while exiting hte otter in a back loop facing tail. Strange enough, it used to be a common manoeuvre to me, and I didn't feel any pb with it before.

I assume this is related to the same legwing issue, since closing the arm wings accelerate the spin...

Anyway, no big deal in getting out of this, but it hurts the ego ( twice in a row )!

Fabien
BASE#944

[phoenixlpr 0]

I had about 40 flights and no flat spin so far.

Is that depending on the type of the suit too?

[fab777 0]

Maybe. This is a Vampire, which has a pretty big legwing.

Don't worry about your first spin, it's coming soon. I was beginning to believe flat spin in a WS was an urban legend, or a special for those who can't fly. It took me some time to experiment by myself...

Fabien
BASE#944

[phoenixlpr 0]

I'm not worried at all. I had some back flying and back flying exit too, but nothing even close to flat spin yet.

[bch7773 0]

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When I jumped the PF Beginner suit (Prodigy?) and did barrel rolls, I had a wing disconnect on its own.

If you hadn't already figured this out, that wing was almost definitely hooked up wrong.

nah they were hooked up correctly. I had a wingsuit instructor doublecheck my setup.
Its just that the prodigy is not designed for aerobatics... I just wasn't told that before I tried barrel rolls in it.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[The111 0]

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When I jumped the PF Beginner suit (Prodigy?) and did barrel rolls, I had a wing disconnect on its own.

If you hadn't already figured this out, that wing was almost definitely hooked up wrong.

nah they were hooked up correctly. I had a wingsuit instructor doublecheck my setup.
Its just that the prodigy is not designed for aerobatics... I just wasn't told that before I tried barrel rolls in it.

Look at this photo. I see no possible way for that to come undone while backflying, or doing anysort of acrobatics. I agree that the Prodigy is not intended for acrobatics, but that does not mean it will fall apart if you attempt it. Perhaps somebody from PF can chime in. James? Am I overlooking something?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I don't know, bro. Do you think that Perry Trowbridge was not qualified to hook up the wings of his own Prodigy demo when he shit came undone at SkyFest last year? Personally, I think that is the only suit that Robi makes that does not make sense. I don't like it at all. I think all the rest of the PF suits are very nice though. I would MUCH rather put a first flight student in an Acro than a Prodigy; that's a clever suit.

Chuck
flying wingsuits since April 2000. Zero flat-spins.

[TomAiello 25]

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Personally, I think that is the only suit that Robi makes that does not make sense.

It makes perfect sense once you realize that it's not for skydiving.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Then why is it marketed as their "training" suit? Likewise, if you are intoning that it's actually a BASE-specific suit, who in their right mind would want to jump a suit in that environment which has several, for whatever reason, documented cases where at least one wing has released in freefall?

I am not Robi bashing at all. I really, really like all the rest of his suits (wait, is that a Vampire hanging on a rack in my camper three feet from me? Yes, it is). I just don't agree with that suit. YMMV.

Sorry for the tangent, but what I just brought up is what I consider the only reason that I would potentially pull my wing cutaways. That said, I have been on wingsuit jumps where I have blown out, on different skydives, every single type of zipper, but managed to keep the suit flying straight. I have blown out an arm zipper, a leg zipper, blown out both booties, and blown out a main body zipper. On each of those jumps, the act of simply tensioning the suit, modifying my body position to fly straight, or collapsing all my wings and falling straight down to a safe opening altitude led to safe, on-heading openings.


Chuck

[vidiot 0]

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Look at this photo. I see no possible way for that to come undone while backflying...

I have never seen this suit in RL, so I might be totally wrong, but judging by this photo, this setup must come undone when backflying: When bellyflying, load is in line with the tape, loading the snaps sideways. When backflying, the wing will create tension perpendicular to that direction and pull of the snap.

My Logbook

[The111 0]

Thing is, between the wing attachment loop and the snaps, there is a very tight nylon web loop/slot that the snap strip must slip through. The one I handled, it seemed pretty much impossible to undo the snap by pulling on the wing in any direction.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Professor 0]

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judging by this photo, this setup must come undone when backflying: When bellyflying, load is in line with the tape, loading the snaps sideways. When backflying, the wing will create tension perpendicular to that direction and pull of the snap.

I've done plenty of backflying in a prodigy, and the wing stays on fine. I've also pulled a wing during a high speed dive toward a formation. It's a very secure system, but I wouldn't trust my life to it.

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.