Buzzing people under canopy?

[LouDiamond 1]

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Regarding WS canopy buzzing, it does not endanger someone elses life/well being without their consent. Instead it does scare someone else.

I think you're over looking an important point here...it's about the consent/knowledge. Your example of clapping your hands behind someone may scare them but it clearly doesn't endanger them in any way(unless they have a heart or medical condition). However,the act of buzzing someone has a very high probability of death or injury if something does go wrong and therefore endangers them. In either case, the person is probably going to be upset and in the later is rightly justified on many levels. I think a majority of people realize this and the thread in the other forum on this subject gives a good idea of that.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[voodew1 0]

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They should have copies of my book Skyflying Wingsuits in Motion

Hey Scott you wrote a book? What a great idea how come I haven't heard about this sooner? I'll have to see if I can find it somewhere --- To think I once flew with an author -- man I feel like Forest Gump

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[bodypilot1 0]

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My new home DZ has a no tandem swooping policy but experienced jumpers are fair game

The tandems at the DZ I normally jump at ask me, every load I'm, on to fly by them so I usually oblige, given they are flying in a straight line in the direction I've asked them to But what's more fun is to BUZZ the other wingsuit pilots already under canopy that I was flocking with.


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[yuri_base 1]

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the act of buzzing someone has a very high probability of death or injury if something does go wrong and therefore endangers them

If you flyby in front of a slow canopy at ~90 degrees to its flight, keeping the tangential closing speed zero (that is, the component of your velocity in the direction of canopy's flight is equal to its speed), in max-glide position, and aim below the canopy, there is absolutely, physically, NO WAY to endanger anybody. If you're in control, the canopy can't reach you (unless tandem master and passenger both pull the fronts with all their might to miraculously achieve horizontal speed beyond your range). If you lose control, you end up tumbling below as you lose your max glide. Well calculated buzz is safer than the rest of skydiving. As outrager said, the rest is just 'fear factor' (which should be respected - just be selective on whom you buzz).

This approach also allows the 'buzzees' enjoy (if they can) the full view of your flight and your incredible speed and glide, while the buzzer can take a cool shot of [seemingly dangerous] 'stunt'.

Yuri

Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

[LouDiamond 1]

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If you flyby in front of a slow canopy at ~90 degrees to its flight

Again, this is assuming that the person or persons under canopy won't do anything to alter their current course. People spiral down, pull risers etc all the time while under canopy which introduces far too many variables to calculate safely for. Which again is why the point of this discussion is having prior approval/consent from the person who is to be buzzed. You don't have to convince me, I've flown relative and docked with canopies before but it was planned out before hand. I think the majority of the people out there, especially tandem masters, AFF instructors and even joe blow the average skydiver, gets this and all agree.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Jiggs 0]

Hi all,

I have around 300 w/s jumps or so (in the last 18 months) and am a BMI

Personally I think that there is 2 aspects to buzzing other fliers - there is the danger component versus the issue of manners. In part this is defined by how close the approach is and who is involved with the fly by. I have buzzed many tandems and friends but now I rarely do unless the person has asked me to do so and that my situational awarness is up to it on the flight - eg can I track/locate all the other canopies on the load. If someone does not want a flyby I will not do so - eg if you don't want to do CRW after a jump how would you feel about someone trying ram a dock on a stilleto on you (same principle).

The only other rule is never past students, they can be tempting but they have enough to worry about without some yahoo flying close - off in the distance is fine but don't try and freak them.

Some people like flyby's others don't - get to know who is who if you want to play this game.

If someone wants to do a flyby me I would want it to be someone that has great skills and someone that I know and trust - there are few of these people (only 4 come to mind quickly) not some random wingsuiter. I do believe that it can be safe to do flybys there is a number of factors (and skills) that need to be considered. Some people will only be safe doing a flyby at a great distance, others can naturally get much closer. How close depends on skill, trust and the exact circumstances of the relative bodies.

The other consideration is that I think that there are many meatheads in skydiving who greatly over-estimate their ability to control a situation that is beyond their skill set. Eg some angles are not good to try and push. I think it's okay to play with you own life but you should never roll the dice on someone elses life.

Manners cost you nothing - so don't be stingy.

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[Professor 0]

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If you flyby in front of a slow canopy at ~90 degrees to its flight

Again, this is assuming that the person or persons under canopy won't do anything to alter their current course.

No, it isn't. What he's saying is that it's straightforward to set up an approach path which makes it impossible for the canopy to reach you. Fly far enough in front of them, and they can't get to you, no matter what they do.

What the other Yuri is say is that, even given this approach, some people will still get scared.

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.

[LouDiamond 1]

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No, it isn't. What he's saying is that it's straightforward to set up an approach path which makes it impossible for the canopy to reach you. Fly far enough in front of them, and they can't get to you, no matter what they do.

What the other Yuri is say is that, even given this approach, some people will still get scared.

And this makes it OK to do how? A good quote from the other thread on this topic sums it up nicely: "Just because you can does not mean you should." It's OK to be irresponsible with your own life all you want but don't be irresponsible with someone elses life,especially without their consent.That persons idea of what is cool and what they and society consider dangerous may vary greatly from yours.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Professor 0]

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And this makes it OK to do how?

Reread what I said, Scott. I never said it's OK, I just said that you were misunderstanding Yuri, as you're now misunderstanding me. Jiggs and Outrager sum it up well, it's a matter of manners. Frightening other jumpers is rude, even when it's not dangerous.

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.

[LouDiamond 1]

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I just said that you were misunderstanding Yuri

I'm not misunderstanding them, I understand what they are saying. I am however in disagreement with their rationalization/justification. If a person is frightened and from that fright, feels that their life was either endangered or potentially threatened (remember, this is their perception/perspective. Their idea of danger and yours may vary greatly) by someones actions then they are going to be upset. You can explain and show how it's not dangerous all day but it won't change that persons perception. The general consensus just from the poll in the other forum shows that a majority feel that an unplanned buzz would upset them and thats not even getting into the proximity issue.

Do people get mad at the driver who cuts them off? Yes, they do. Did that drivers actions frighten them? Yes , it usually does. Did getting cut off potentialy endager them? Yes, it could cause them to over react, slam on the brakes or a myriad of other reactions that could potentially cause an accident. The danger is there, that person realizes it, it frightens them and it angers them because they realize that due to someone elses carlessness or irresponsibility they or others could of potentially been hurt. The possibility exists and they realize this.

Now, going back to the rude part of this. Besides being just that, how do you think people will view that person or persons who put them in that position? Does anyone here want to be known as "the one" who caused wingsuits to be banned or be known as "the guy to watch out for" on the DZ. Most important of all, what message does it send to the non winguiters in the skydiving community about wingsuits and the people who fly them? Perception IS reality for many on this planet to include skydivers. Another good quote that fits here is: "Don't be that dude"

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[OmarPR 0]

As I was reading this thread, I was thinking "wow, this all sounds very familiar". Then, as I read on I realized (to my surprise) that this happened at my home DZ and the guy doing the so-called "buzz" was me! I say "so-called buzz" because I did not plan or intend to buzz the instructor or any other canopy for that matter.I was not bored and I am no jackass looking to perform any antics. This happened way more than just a couple of months ago, so I will try my best to re-create that day's situation as accurately as I can remember:

1-I flew the typical (wingsuit) flight pattern (as described by Matt-The111).
2-On break-off I flew parallel to jump run towards the dz\landing area, mainly looking straight ahead and down. Basicly I was looking down my flight\glide path. I was simply watching where I was going, somewhat like what one would do when driving a car.
3-Approaching my normal opening altitude (2000'), I take a quick look to my right (opposite of dz\landing area), then look left (towards dz.) then down and ahead again and pitch. I was under canopy at 2000' according to my neptune and my video, and far from all other canopies (or so I thought).

After landing I was told that she was pissed at me and why. I felt very bad so I went up to her and told her I was sorry about what happened. I watched my video of that jump but I couldn't find her in it. And that is all that happened. One always learns something with every skydive (or at least one should), especially the ones that don't go so perfect. Looking back is always 20\20:

Things I should have done:
Ask her more specific questions about her point of view:
1- "How high did you pull?"
-To determine if at a specific time and space I should have seen a tiny dot still in freefall, about to deploy, deploying or under a fully inflated canopy.


2- "How far was I?" (in feet, inches, ,meters, miles, kilometers or whatever)
-To determine if it was a safe or unsafe distance.

3- "How far were you from dz\landing area?"
-To detemine her position and mine in relation with my flight pattern.

4- "What can I (or we) do to avoid this from ever happening again and how to go about it?"
etc. etc. etc.

note: The above questions would have been asked to better the situation not to question anyones ...

As I analize this some points come to mind. Please note that this is no attempt to deny or aknowledge any fault:

1 Normally an experienced skydiver would deploy between 2000' to 3000'. Assuming she opened at 3000', she would likely have deployed close to the time I "buzzed" her, meaning before that she would have been a small dot in freefall about to deploy and quite difficult to see due to the horizontal separation. If she opened higher I would assume she was a little far from the spot and closer to my flight pattern. I believe this is what happened because I deployed far from the rest of the canopies. Also if she was near last in exit order that could have put her a little further in the spot making her having to deploy a little higher.

I will speak to her the DZO and S&TA about this to see what we need to do to avoid this any further (like creating awareness to non-wingsuit jumpers about our flight patterns and not doing uninvited buzz jobs). I believe that every skydiver should be aware of these patterns and care about it. These patterns are designed to AVOID general traffic. Generally it does NOT put you around people who are under canopy. Most here have brought out some good points. I would never do an intetional buzz without the other jumpers consent. Every single person that I have really and intentionally buzzed has known and planned it with me and they were experienced wingsuit pilots or at some point have flown wingsuits. I have seen it first hand, on non-wingsuit skydives and seen other peoples footage with people freefalling within 20' past canopies, and I have personal video of jumpers doing that to me. I know how it feels. But it seems like it's only wreckless behavior when it's a wingsuit. A wingsuit lands off, he's a bad pilot, a regular jumper lands off, bad spot or wind is too strong. I have only landed off twice,(and learned from them) both because of something new that we came up with at the time which puts us head down thus making our freefall time and spot shorter than a regular wingsuit jump. We have modified our spot, course correction time, and break off accodingly to land in the dz and safely away from other groups. This is something that I talked about to the DZO and the S&TA. As for other pilots, I can't say. I KNOW my skill level. I KNOW my limits and I KNOW how much control I have or don't have. I may or may not have done something stupid, but who hasn't? Everyone at some point has landed off or will, and everyone has done something stupid in their skydiving career or will. I don't care how many jumps you may have, if it is 10 or 10,000, if you are a student or a skygod, nobody is exepmt from an off landing or doing something stupid at some degree. I have seen tandem masters, videographers and other highly experience jumpers land off or do something stupid. Or a jumper swooping "dangerously close" to spectators. Example: I got yelled at AND threatened by a tandem instructor because allegedly I cut him off on landing. Later that afternoon he apologized and admitted it was his fault.

On another note: It saddens me to hear that we are disliked at our own home DZ. Skydive City and its local wingsuit flyers have become very popular with our wingsuit events but I can't help but to feel that we are no loger welcome there (or maybe I'm just paranoid).

I hope that I haven't offended anyone. This is only MY point of view and any differences of opinion, personal attacks (8-P) or corrections are more than welcome.

Well I would love to stay and chat some more but I have just wasted my entire night reading, analyzing and responding to this rather unpleasant thread.

Good Night (Morning)

WINGSUIT ACROBATICS team O zone
ZF#5 , HISPA#70
Blue Skies...
...Big Fat Clouds

[okalb 78]

Hey Omar,

I just want to point out that nobody brought your name into it because it really wasn't directed at you. The situation that happened with you, just brought the topic up for discussion. I don't know the circumstaces of what happened with you and wasn't trying to bring you into it at all.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[outrager 6]

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However,the act of buzzing someone has a very high probability of death or injury if something does go wrong and therefore endangers them.

I very strongly disagree. Repeat: the act of buzzing someone is very safe, as safe as clapping hands.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[The111 0]

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However,the act of buzzing someone has a very high probability of death or injury if something does go wrong and therefore endangers them.

I very strongly disagree. Repeat: the act of buzzing someone is very safe, as safe as clapping hands.

It depends on proximity... a question that has been raised by more than one person in this and the other general skydiving thread and has still not been addressed by anyone, including those who have the biggest problems with buzzing.

What is a buzz? 10 yds? 100 yds? Half a mile?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[okalb 78]

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However,the act of buzzing someone has a very high probability of death or injury if something does go wrong and therefore endangers them.

I very strongly disagree. Repeat: the act of buzzing someone is very safe, as safe as clapping hands.

It depends on proximity... a question that has been raised by more than one person in this and the other general skydiving thread and has still not been addressed by anyone, including those who have the biggest problems with buzzing.

What is a buzz? 10 yds? 100 yds? Half a mile?

I haven't addressed it because I don't know or care. The fact of the matter is that you are still in freefall and I don't understand why you should be ANYWHERE near people under canopy without their permission. If any other discipline of skydiver did that they would be torn a new one. If your pattern puts you in freefall around open canopies, then there is something wrong with your pattern. It is a huge sky and you can fly anywhere you want to go, so why should you be anywhere near us?

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[Ron 7]

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Buzzing is cool,
getting pissed about it is not

Buzz me without planning it and me agreeing and I will have and issue when we get on the ground.

Unplanned buzzing is not cool. I don't care how skilled you think you are.

I have been buzzed by my friends when they asked me before hand and it can be quite cool.

But for some yahoo jackass to do it without my prior permission is endangering me with out my wishes.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[outrager 6]

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If you flyby in front of a slow canopy at ~90 degrees to its flight

Again, this is assuming that the person or persons under canopy won't do anything to alter their current course.

You still don't get it, even after somebody gives you a perfect example! Amazing...

A properly executed buzz accounts for any unexpected canopy maneuver. This is what makes it absolutely safe.

An issue of politeness and fear has been covered already. It has nothing to do with safety.


To F111: yes, proximity is important. A bulletproof distance is such where any canopy maneuver will not put it in WS path. For a tandem, this distance is quite small. An actual safe distance is even shorter: since a wingsuit can outfly any canopy, it is only determined by a pilot's reaction time.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[lauras 0]

Hi Omar:

I hope you believe that this thread wasn't an attack directed towards you. This is truly something that's been on my mind because I've noticed how popular WS flying has become at our home dz. Yes, that particular episode is the one I had in mind, but as I stated, this wasn't a finger-pointing exercise. I don't know every detail of that particular jump/flight, just what I posted.

I wanted to bring this up for discussion specifically because during the Xmas boogie, there were so many mixed loads and it's becoming more and more common to have a wing suit on the plane every day. I was jumping yesterday and there were one or two wing suits on every load. This upswing in activity indicates to me that sooner or later, this discussion is going to come up. Why not bring it up in a forum that gets a lot of traffic rather than a fight in the landing area after someone gets their panties in a knot?

Here's something to keep in mind: most of the experienced RW jumpers at our dz pull somewhere between 3000 & 2500. The freeflyers pull between 4000 & 3000. You guys also follow the low-time solos, tandems and AFFs that usually pull between 5000 and 4500.

As far as landing off is concerned, yeah, you're right, the "bad spot" usually gets the blame rather than just saying I suck at spotting, but the perception about WS is if you guys have a canopy AND wings between your arms and legs, why can't you make it home?

There's a huge lack of knowledge about WS flight among the "regular" jumpers at every dz I know. Someone mentioned a FAQ. This would be a really good thing so post around a dz. It might also generate some more interest in WS flight too.

The new kid on the block is always going to get the once-over. When there was one guy flying around in a WS, no one paid attention. Now that there's an entire flock with a name, events and all of that, it's on everyone's radar . I don't think you should think of the attention or questions as unpleasant or an attack. It's a getting to know you process.

[Ron 7]

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i assume you mean the one where the guys track into eachother, taking off limbs and killing one of them.

That was an ugly day, and i drink to the deceased. but they knew the risks, and they paid the price for cutting it too close. i heard they planned for 20' clearence. thats a big hole to fill. and a wingsuit/canopy have a hell of a lot more maneuverability than tracking.

from doing head to heads... that is dangerous. so is buzzing at all. hell, wingsuiting is dangerous. but we all decide our own level of risk and involvment.

Both parties knew the risks, they are very simple, if somebody screws up, both people probably die.

Key words being, "Both parties knew the risks". If you ask permission and I give it...Its OK. If you just buzz me for fun, expect me to get pissed since you risked my life for your fun with out me having any say so.....So expect me to have my say when you land.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[okalb 78]

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However,the act of buzzing someone has a very high probability of death or injury if something does go wrong and therefore endangers them.

I very strongly disagree. Repeat: the act of buzzing someone is very safe, as safe as clapping hands.

bsbd!

Yuri.

Something else just occured to me. I am not trying to pick a fight here and I don't fly a wingsuit so I don't know the answer to this. Is it possible that while you are so busy looking at the canopy that you are buzzing to set it up just right, you end up flying right into the canopy of someone else that is past the person you are buzzing?

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[phoenixlpr 0]

I think buzzing without previous consent can be considered as a near miss. So it can not be safe.

[Ron 7]

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I’ve met snooty skydivers all over who seem to get pissed about everything.

The skydiver in question is one of the best people I know of. If she got pissed it means someone did something stupid.

Sr. AFF I, World Champ, Full time Master rigger....She is no "Newbie" and understands the risks better than most.

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I don’t know how close of a “buzz” she got, or the skill level of the bird
who committed the offense. I just think it’s a shame to have someone
walking around the dz pissed at people because they all don’t seem to
operate with someone's level of so called safety margins or danger thresholds.

Don’t worry, I won’t hurt you.

YOU have no right to risk ME without my consent.

Attitudes like yours are going to create bad blood against WS fliers.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[outrager 6]

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Is it possible that while you are so busy looking at the canopy that you are buzzing to set it up just right, you end up flying right into the canopy of someone else that is past the person you are buzzing?

That would be an extreme case of target fixation. Certainly possible, but very unlikely - such a person wouldn't live long enough to take up wingsuits

Flying a wingsuit around tandem canopies is very much like driving a car around orange plastic cones.

The amount of control and glide that WS pilot has is almost impossible to imagine for a skydiver who is used to helplessly falling down

bsbd!

Yuri.

[Ron 7]

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You still don't get it, even after somebody gives you a perfect example! Amazing...

A properly executed buzz accounts for any unexpected canopy maneuver. This is what makes it absolutely safe.

YOU think its safe, I don't. Since its my ass on the line as well you have no right to risk my ass for your fun.

BTW I have flown a WS and have a bunch of other aviation related crap behind me.

You with less than 500 jumps think you know more than people with 1,000's.

AMAZING.

Buzz me without my consent and we WILL talk about it on the ground.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[unclecharlie95 3]

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You with less than 500 jumps think you know more than people with 1,000's.

Erm, if that was directed at Yuri you may be under estimating his wingsuit flying skills and experience from other related disciplines.

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