Deland 60 ways update

[Rdutch 0]

There is a new date soon to be set for the 60 ways. Sorry for the inconvenience to anyone that had planned on coming thanksgiving but for many reasons we have to set a different date. The up side of this is now we have more time to plan and better things to do. Keep looking out, everything is coming soon, and there will be plenty of notice. 60 is just the beginning. I cant wait, can you?

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[JFK 0]

Can you tell us more about it?
or may be a link to previous posts?

Jul.

JFK #1013
PM Me
No Adrenalin.... No Fun!
"Minds are like parachutes the

[KrisFlyZ 0]

Cool!! It sounds like it is later than sooner, I may be able to make it. If we reach 60 it will be the first 3 plane flock.

Kris.

[kevin922 0]

Just out of curiousity what kind of requirements are going to be in place with this? (thinking safety wise here) minimum number of wingsuit jumps?

[Rdutch 0]

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Cool!! It sounds like it is later than sooner, I may be able to make it. If we reach 60 it will be the first 3 plane flock.

Kris.

We did the first 2 plane flock, why not do the first 3 plane flock. A few things have changed since last years great success, to make things easier to build, and to ensure everyone is up to par in flying a formation this big.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[The111 1]

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Just out of curiousity what kind of requirements are going to be in place with this? (thinking safety wise here) minimum number of wingsuit jumps?

I know this is probably what you meant, but flocking experience is more important than total WS jumps. :)

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Deuce 1]

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Just out of curiousity what kind of requirements are going to be in place with this? (thinking safety wise here) minimum number of wingsuit jumps?

I know this is probably what you meant, but flocking experience is more important than total WS jumps. :)

Absolutely. The most difficult thing is for the long skinny fliers to dirty up and hang with the heavy, stouter fliers. Most of the light/long folks are frustrated at first, but really enjoy finding though video that they have been part of a really big, precise flock.

Even if they feel like they could have done it without a wingsuit at all.

JP

[ikenever 1]

A good point. Experience is important and with that experience comes the understanding of the organization to follow the plan of the organizers. If you are on a dive and the break-off altitude is 4000' and you're still flying in the formation at 3500' you are disorganized.

[MickeN 0]

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Absolutely. The most difficult thing is for the long skinny fliers to dirty up and hang with the heavy, stouter fliers. Most of the light/long folks are frustrated at first, but really enjoy finding though video that they have been part of a really big, precise flock.

What about weights?! Skinny people should put on weights, just as any RW jumper do all the time. We discussed this on our DZ... or, I TOLD people to put on some led since they wanted to flock and they thought I was falling too fast. It never happened though, the attitude was "Why should I put on weights? It will decrease my freefall time!"...... Well, how can you argue with that?

/Micke

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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What about weights?! Skinny people should put on weights, just as any RW jumper do all the time. We discussed this on our DZ... or, I TOLD people to put on some led since they wanted to flock and they thought I was falling too fast. It never happened though, the attitude was "Why should I put on weights? It will decrease my freefall time!"...... Well, how can you argue with that?

/Micke

Mike, some of us have heard the statement..."looks like you guys were falling too fast, so I flew for time". Most people that have had the good fortune of being on good flocking dives don't think twice about collapsing their wings and getting in the flock.

As far as weights go, I don't think they are needed. Very skinny people have managed to do very well on 70 sec flocks. Zach Mullins was killing it at last years WFFC. Can you find anyone with a lesser wing loading?

Kris.

Kris.

[MickeN 0]

Kris,

I agree, collapse the wings and you should be able to follow. But some people claim they cannot fly very well with the wings collapsed, or rather partially collapsed, the wings get floppy and the jumper get a feeling of not being in total control. They would for sure get more relaxed, and with a faster fallrate, using weights. It makes sense.

/Micke

[The111 1]

In my experience, the wings (arm, at least) flap a lot if you do something to deflate (or distort) them, such as throw your arms way behind you. If you keep your arms level though, but pull them in, the wing stays inflated and simply curves like a canopy. Much smoother flight. I'm a floaty guy (though not as much as Kris!) and would also never consider using weights. I flew with a PF tracking suit (a bigger guy than me) smooth enough to hold a long dock.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[LouDiamond 1]

I have yet to see weights really help someone on a wingsuit flight. People assume that since it works for vertical freefall it will work for wing suit flights in getting down to the flock. Think of it in terms of wing loading.An increase in weight will cause a faster vertical descent rate but does not affect glide ratio, only the airspeed needed to obtain that glide ratio will change with an increase in weight.If one is having issues flying with wings partially collapsed an increse in airspeed isn't going to make it any easier for that person to slow down to match the flocks pace. Instead you get a person who makes it down to the flock but ends up not being able to slow down to stay relative with the flock and either shoots by everyone or goes low. One has to be able to fly their body and adjust their fall rate to the flock and that means at some point they are going to have to fly with wings partially collapsed. Like kris mentioned earlier, Zack probably didn't even weigh a 100lbs soaking wet at Rantoul and he had no problem getting down to the flock and staying with it because he flew his body to the situation.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[MickeN 0]

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I flew with a PF tracking suit (a bigger guy than me) smooth enough to hold a long dock.

Well, I've done that as well, and it's a lot of fun

But I think we're comparing two different things here. Do we want to flock with a lot of forward speed, with a good glideratio? Or do we want to just try to group together, not paying attention to speed and glide ratio?

If we choose the later, then I see no problem with people flying with their wings collapsed. Wings collapsed means you don't use the potential of the suit, and in slow-horizontal-fast-vertical flocks that is OK. In the jumps we've made at the swedish Herc-boogie for the last couple of years (I know several of you been on those loads) we've often had a leader flying on his back. That guy (most of the time it's been Andy Ford) flyes really well on his back, but the glideratio is far from what we achieve when we speed up on our bellies. As I understand that is the norm right now for how flocks are built.

I think there is more potential in flockdives where the key word is faster forward speed, better glideratio. If we all went out and did our best flight we would be scattered all over the sky, but with adjusting wingsuit sizes and models, and by experimenting with weights, I'm pretty sure we could group together with a lot more speed. More speed and more tuned jumpers/suits would open up for, in my opinion, more interesting flock dives. And after all, we all want to FLY our suits not make them NOT fly, right?

Time will tell.

/Micke

[The111 1]

The point of yours I was replying to was in regards to the difficulty of a floaty guy staying with a heavier flock, without "wing flappida". I was just saying it's possible, without extra weight.

In fact, I challenge any heavier pilot than me to create a situation where I can't stay with him, and smoothly. (excluding extraordinary pilots! ) My point was that I don't think weights are needed.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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I flew with a PF tracking suit (a bigger guy than me) smooth enough to hold a long dock.

Well, I've done that as well, and it's a lot of fun

But I think we're comparing two different things here. Do we want to flock with a lot of forward speed, with a good glideratio? Or do we want to just try to group together, not paying attention to speed and glide ratio?

/Micke

Mike,

I see your point. We are at present just flying along together at a stable and easy pace to get everyone in.

The way flocking is happening now(mostly number of flockers wise), the need to have more efficient flights has not been reached. During the Deland event last year Scott Bland(Base) was asked to speed up forward as the number of flockers grew. With us approaching and hopefully exceeding 60 ways this year, we will soon be in the realm where the kind of efficiency we are achieveing now will simply not be enough.

When flocks are flown so fast forward that the lighter pilots cannot maintain that glidescope we may be at a point where weights become necessary. We are talking about a heavier pilot and a lighter pilot having the same glide ratio but vastly differing vertical and forward speeds.

While I would love to be in flights that I cannot somehow match the forward speed(missed an opportunity at the ZFlock and Dock event to fly with Robi and James ), I don't see these kind of flights becoming the norm on flocks until the expertise levels of the wingsuit flyers increases drastically. More precise flying skills will be needed for such flocks to be possible.


Kris.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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That guy (most of the time it's been Andy Ford) flyes really well on his back, but the glideratio is far from what we achieve when we speed up on our bellies. As I understand that is the norm right now for how flocks are built.

If you are saying that most "normal" flocks, even large ones, are led by a backflyer then you are mistaken, at least in the USA. Perhaps you meant something completely different, but that's the way I read your post.

Chuck

[verticalflyer 11]

I think he was referring more to the HERC boogie where in 2002 and 2004 most flocks where led by Andy on his back. In the Uk we lead flocks often on our back gives a good visual and the flock can be debriefed nicely by the leader. Obviously you can do this either way your lead flies but the back flying works nicely.

General respone to other posters::

As for Skinny guys getting down to heavy guys, I can jump happily with 17stone guys in Gti's whilst on my V1 and I way 11.5 stone admitedly I use very little arm wing but forward speed and tight flocking are not a problem.

As for big groups, if you want precision its takes good flying and if there arent enough good fliers yet for a tight 60 way so be it, it'll happen soon as the discipline grows, the 27 way in 2002 was 27 out the door but very spread out, the precision flying in 2004 was a whole different story and looked stunning. I was just gutted I was ill that week.

Whatever happens the flight is evolving and its just going to get more fun.

Dont just talk about it, Do it!

[kimgriffin 0]

Tjene Micke! Yeah, I used to consider adding weights under my WS. Being short and light (with an S3) I can't get the fwd drive taller or heavier flyers can get. I remember flying w/ you and Jari once long ago and feeling a little frustrated about just that. Although I was happy to stop wearing weights when I left 4-way, I think it may be something that has to happen (on WS jumps) when big groups want to keep relative and be able to fly clean. It's no different than in RW... having to fly in comprimised body position limits you.

Ray, I wouldn't want to miss 60-way flock jumps - thanks. That's going be an amazing site. Yeah, size matters but hopefully safety will be the #1 consideration.

[Rdutch 0]

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Tjene Micke! Yeah, I used to consider adding weights under my WS. Being short and light (with an S3) I can't get the fwd drive taller or heavier flyers can get. I remember flying w/ you and Jari once long ago and feeling a little frustrated about just that. Although I was happy to stop wearing weights when I left 4-way, I think it may be something that has to happen (on WS jumps) when big groups want to keep relative and be able to fly clean. It's no different than in RW... having to fly in comprimised body position limits you.

Ray, I wouldn't want to miss 60-way flock jumps - thanks. That's going be an amazing site. Yeah, size matters but hopefully safety will be the #1 consideration.

Of course safety is the #1 concern, as you know from being there last year we had a well organized event. This year we have the addition of Loic and Jay Moledzki, coming in to help organize also. This years event is a 5 day event, to give us a chance to work on the pieces in smaller groups, to see who is going to be coming along for the big ways. Last years attendents that were in the jumps that built are already allowed to come play, as long as they are current. I will have full details up soon, sadly I have to wait to pick a date. Availability for Aircraft and organizers busy schedule, as well as other events already set are making it a little difficult. Right now its looking to be the end of January or anytime in Feb. Do you know the dates of the Big BIG ways in Thailand?

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[bodypilot1 0]

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Availability for Aircraft and organizers busy schedule, as well as other events already set are making it a little difficult. Right now its looking to be the end of January or anytime in Feb. Do you know the dates of the Big BIG ways in Thailand?

Hopefully it will not coinside with World Teams trip to Thailand or I'm out.

I'll let you know the date as soon as they are set.




Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[SCARYPERRY 0]

Weights????instead of loading the wingsuit pilot with lead....mabe reduce wing???I dont weight much and after a few thousand flights,NEVER would think lead...Why not adjust the suit to fit the need?Are all crw canopies the same size?As we develop skills,we must apply our flying relative to others..unfortunatly we jump in smaller groups or solo alot and when we need to adjust,fly smooth with others,it can be trying to say the least!!! Has anyone strapped on some lead to see what happens?? Mabe some small change in flight characteristic because of different airflow over the body? When we all jump different suits,some will out fly others,some out float,ect...mabe put the v1 away and go back to a gti or if they fall that fast, use a tracken suit!!!Adjust your suit fly what the fallrate and your skill level allows

Only he can be happy,who can make his the present hour,for today he has lived

[bodypilot1 0]

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instead of loading the wingsuit pilot with lead....mabe reduce wing?

I wrote something about just that awhile back, but can seem to find the thread I wrote it in.

Having "custom made/wing size specific" wingsuits for flocking is a great way to achieve a nice flying formation.
But not everyone has access to several different wingsuit sizes unfortunatly.

The other way to have great flockers flying tight formations, is to have only people on the formation that have flown the suit they have at "every aspect" and know how to fly it their "BEST".


Flock, Flock and more flocking will get you to know your wingsuit and you ability to handle it in any situation.




Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[ikenever 1]

Having the opportunity to organize many unsuccessful and one successful CRW world record it is indeed necessary or possible to mix and match. The same goes for suits. Perry we did swap canopies and position people based on their canopy, weight, speed, experience and the ability to aggressively capture their slot. The formation had to be weighted (not weights) so so in order for it to fly properly.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

If the right people are on the skydive then suits are simply not an issue. Loic's small girlfriend Kathy had no problem whatsoever staying in the big flocks in her "little" S-fly, nor did anyone with any skills have any problems staying extremely tight in S3's. It's all a matter of skill. You will not get that skill if you don't fly your suit with others. Personally, I find flying with first flight students MUCH more challenging than simple "blot" flocks. It is very common to have a student have a less than perfect exit that requires you to dive hard down to them, get them un-fucked, and then have to pop hard to stay up with them when they "find their wings". Once again, it all comes with practice and currency. People who fly hard, straight, and solo are not neccessarily safe in mid-speed blots.

Chuck