parachutesj 0 #1 August 21, 2003 We hat the discussion in another thread. I am just curious. How many jumps or what is the maximum life of a harness? When do you plan to replace it? I know it depends on usage, storage and most importantly where you use it (dessert - heat and sand, lots of UV) and also who jumps it. I think a harness for a girl with 100 lbs is not stronger than one for a big guy. Would you agree to a maximum lifespan (10, 15 or 20 years) and why or why not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #2 August 21, 2003 OPINION: I dont think there should be a "maximum life span" of a rig - each should depend on the individual wear on the rig. Perhaps there is scope for a maximum number of jumps - perhaps specific to each maufacturer but I think this would be unworkable. There could also perhaps be moves to ban certain design elements of some older rigs which are now acknowledged as being unsafe, along the same lines as rigs being declaired "not freefly safe". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #3 August 21, 2003 I think Finland has maximum lifespan of 20 years. I cant say if this is good or not, but I sure as hell would never be jumping a 20 year old rig.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpy 0 #4 August 21, 2003 Well my container was made a few months after I was born... I'm 17.... I have no problem with jumping it because its still in fine and perfectly jumpable condition.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #5 August 21, 2003 I don't know if it is an APF rule, or a CASA rule, but this is how we do it. If a manufacturer hasn't issued a 'use-by date', then gear can be certified as airworthy by a properly certified person. If a manufacturer has issued a 'use-by date', then gear can be certified as airworthy by a properly certified person up until that date, after which it must be retired. If a manufacturer has issued a 'use-by date', and the expiry date/manufacture date is not visible, then the gear must be retired.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #6 August 21, 2003 This sounds sensible -- it might be arbitrary on the manufacturer's part, but at least there's a reason besides "I don't like old gear." My backup rig is older than my 19-year-old son, and in great condition. I inspect it carefully, and wouldn't think of jumping it on a freefly jump (lots and lots of velcro). If you jump older gear, you need to be willing to retire it when the time comes because of damage (including sun damage), but that's the cost of older gear. But it's damage, not just age. Also, from looking at numbers, many people jump a lot more per year than I seem to remember. I remember someone making 350 jumps in a year and it was a lot. So 20 years old doesn't necessarily mean it's been jumped 1000 times per year, eihter. After all, don't folks talk fondly about the cheapo jumps and other round jumps at some boogies? You really think they're still making that stuff? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #7 August 21, 2003 if you leave your gear out in the sun, drag it across the ground when you pack, jump in a desert environment, jump in a salt water environment...all of these things add up...if you do all of them your gear isn't going to last nearly as long as someone who always uses a packing mat, always packs indoors, stays out of the sun as much as humanly possible, etc etc etc....thousands of jumps on a rig is very very possible...you can also wear out a rig FAST by not treating it right....I saw a mirage the other day that was only two years old but had very fuzzed up main lift web/reserve risers, faded panels, cadmium plating coming off, just looked like crap....problem is when I asked the owner about his care plan for the rig..."I'll just buy a new one".....scary part is he is probably going to try to sell this rig to someone at my home DZ...VERY scary.. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #8 August 21, 2003 A few weeks ago I jumped gear that was manufactured in 1973. For the record, I was born in 1974. If manufacturers were to put time limits on gear, I would suspect its purpose would be to sell more new stuff then retire un-airworthy gear. Determining the airworthiness of equipment is a relatively straight forward process, one that any experienced rigger is more then capable of doing. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #9 August 21, 2003 I was told that a main can be kill by leaving it for 4 days in sunsine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #10 August 22, 2003 absolutely can...I thought it was even less than that...especialy the closer to the equator you are the more powerfull UV tends to be... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #11 August 22, 2003 Or close to polars? Ive heard some issues because of the weekness of ozon layer in South America. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #12 August 22, 2003 Quote ozon layer in South America I have relatives in Argentina. My aunt is an avid lawn bowler, and has been for about 60 years. The ozone layer is no lie -- no one can stay out in the sun any more without burning a lot faster than they used to. Not based on science, but direct experience. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #13 August 22, 2003 Let's ignore the wear and tear issue. Grab a 1983 issue of Parachutist magazine and read the ads to see what was "hot" gear 20 years ago. Back in 1983 a "hot" rig was a Vector I with a 5-cell Swift reserve and a Cruislite. The rig had lots of Velcro and the main pilotchute was mounted on the leg strap. The only electronic AAD was the Sentinel. This was pre-tuck tabs, pre-ZP fabric, pre-Spectra, pre-Cypres, pre-collapsible pilotchutes, pre-collapsible sliders. pre-BOC, etc. Most of this technology can be retrofitted, but sometimes the retrofits cost more than the rig is worth. Step forward to today and you will find that no self-respecting rigger has packed a Vector I reserve pilotchute in the last decade. Fortunately the Vector II reserve pilotchute is a simple drop-in fix. CSPA recently issued a Technical Bulletin reminding riggers of the correct way to route brakes on 5-cell Swift reserves. It seems that 5-cell Swifts have become so rare that younger riggers are not learning how to stow their peculiar brakes. Sentinels have been out of production for several years now and I do not know if that shop in Texas still services them. Finally, you cannot GIVE away a Cruislite these days. So, yes, your 20-year-old rig may still be airworthy, but it is hopelessly out of fashion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #14 August 22, 2003 QuoteWe hat the discussion in another thread. I am just curious. How many jumps or what is the maximum life of a harness? When do you plan to replace it? I know it depends on usage, storage and most importantly where you use it (dessert - heat and sand, lots of UV) and also who jumps it. I think a harness for a girl with 100 lbs is not stronger than one for a big guy. Would you agree to a maximum lifespan (10, 15 or 20 years) and why or why not? In the US, the harness and container system and the reserve have a lifetime of 120 DAYS. This gets renewed (or not) every 120 days. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #15 August 22, 2003 I think you miss the point of the thread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #16 August 22, 2003 Cool, can i buy that unairworthy rig of yours which is 121 days old? The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casch 0 #17 August 22, 2003 I think his post more or less is saying that a rig is good for 120 days, and at that time, the reserve is repacked and the rig is inspected and claimed "airworthy" again. Sort of a different way of looking at it is all Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #18 August 22, 2003 Well I jump a 94 talon..... I do freeflying so I had the rig updated....newer tighter BOC pouch....more secure reserve pin flap installed. Fixed riser tuck tab...replaced velcro on stearing lines....Main pin flap already had tuck tabs which are in good shape... It all depends..you can take an old rig and update it. I think my rig is just as safe as the next guys..because I maintain the fuck out of my rig. Plus...rigs can spend a lot of time in hybernation. My rig looks like it was used a few years, then spent the rest of the time in a closet. It definatly doesn't have 10 years worth of wear and tear. The main is a Sabre 150 that is in great shape Manufactured in '96 ....the reserve is a Swift Plus 7-cell...manufactured in '93... It looks like it's never even been used! brand new clean white lines. Just cause somthing is old doesn't mean it's not safe as long as it's maintained well. scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #19 August 22, 2003 QuoteI think you miss the point of the thread I think she hit the nail right on the head actualy. I'd venture a guess that she (as I do) thinks that imposed life limits are wack, and if instituted buy an industry driven body may have less to do with saftey, and more to do with built in obselesense. A Rigger should be the final determining factor in the airworthyness of a pice of gear. A loft I worked for had a limit of 30 years. After that they refused to pack it no matter what shape it was in. Limited their liability. I agree with this, but still think it should be an individual/loft decision, not a rule handed down by the industry. We need no more in the way of regulation, especialy if it goes as far as FAA regulation. The FAA doesn't really understand our gear.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #20 August 23, 2003 QuoteSo, yes, your 20-year-old rig may still be airworthy, but it is hopelessly out of fashion. That is true. But when someone comments on that, I can say "I bought it new." And it gave me the time to pick new gear carefully, rather than renting and therefore picking quickly because of rental fees. I would never recommend my old rig to a student or a novice. But I'll jump it willingly. And since I have a white jumpsuit, it's obvious that fashion is not high on my list of priorities. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #21 August 24, 2003 At my old dropzone, they had this really old parachute system where you actually wore the reserve on your stomach. The main was on your back and had 3 closing pins. I always wanted to fly it. I think it's about 30 years old but the DZO/Master Rigger says its safe to fly! I wish I tried it, just for fun! scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #22 August 24, 2003 QuoteQuoteI think you miss the point of the thread I think she hit the nail right on the head actualy. I'd venture a guess that she (as I do) thinks that imposed life limits are wack, and if instituted buy an industry driven body may have less to do with saftey, and more to do with built in obselesense. A Rigger should be the final determining factor in the airworthyness of a pice of gear. A loft I worked for had a limit of 30 years. After that they refused to pack it no matter what shape it was in. Limited their liability. I agree with this, but still think it should be an individual/loft decision, not a rule handed down by the industry. We need no more in the way of regulation, especialy if it goes as far as FAA regulation. The FAA doesn't really understand our gear. Just a thought, but maybe the manufactures would like to limit their liability by removing some of their older rigs from service.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #23 August 24, 2003 QuoteAt my old dropzone, they had this really old parachute system where you actually wore the reserve on your stomach. The main was on your back and had 3 closing pins. I always wanted to fly it. I think it's about 30 years old but the DZO/Master Rigger says its safe to fly! I wish I tried it, just for fun! scott >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hah! Reminds me of the gear that was in fashion when I was student in 1977-1979. Only our freefall rigs had 4 main ripcord pins. I still have the scar from an unstable opening that came after a hard pull! If you brought that gear to Pitt Meadows, I would steer you towards the garbage can! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #24 August 24, 2003 QuoteAt my old dropzone, they had this really old parachute system where you actually wore the reserve on your stomach. The main was on your back and had 3 closing pins. I always wanted to fly it. I think it's about 30 years old but the DZO/Master Rigger says its safe to fly! I wish I tried it, just for fun! scott You talk like you think it came from the Jurassic period. Some of us not only learned on that type of gear but made several jumps on it after being students.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #25 August 24, 2003 I had 8 jumps in `99 a similar gear you described, but I dont want to have more of them. Round main & round reserve......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
