Austintxflight 0 #1 November 4, 2011 At least i feel like I was jumping with a future corpse. I was visiting a DZ, my home DZ does everything by the books, very strict (which I like, it makes me feel safe) So i'm getting ready to do a 2way with a guy i met, I'm recently a new A license, so not planning anything crazy, this guy has between 50-75 jumps and has already downsized to a safire 135. I'm thinking ok, crazy but I don't have to deal with him under canopy, so its his own deal. Then in the plane I notice he has a gopro mounted on his helmet, and I'm just thinking to myself, geez 50 jumps and downsized from a 210 to a 135 and already mounting a camera. I sometimes feel like I am too much a stickler for the rules, but they are there for a reason, or even the suggestions (like how many jumps to mount a camera). And that fast downsizing, I am so happy I am going on a slow progression measured in hundreds of jumps and years not downsize each dozen jumps. Sorry if you read this man, but its true, you are definitely playing fast and loose, it was fun jumping with you and I'd like to keep doing it in the future, so take care of yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyMarko 1 #2 November 4, 2011 Darn it...You busted me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spikes2020 0 #3 November 4, 2011 how was his landing? just wondering...... I mean if he stood it up next to the cone, i'd say is doing fine. If he has green stains on his ass, maybe not.Cheers Jon W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #4 November 4, 2011 QuoteI mean if he stood it up next to the cone, i'd say is doing fine. If he has green stains on his ass, maybe not. This is a very poor way to judge the skill of a canopy pilot, and I would advise against using that metric to determine your own skills or when making equipment selection. It's not as simple as you're making it out to be, and like the saying goes, 'the devil is in the details', and you're asking for trouble ignoring those details. One of the most dangerous things I see at the DZ is a poorly executed flare or landing where the jumper avoids an injury or severe impact by inches, but manages to stand up the landing. They come away thinking it was fine, and thus become more comfortable with a canopy they have no room to be 'comfortable' with. One small mistake could make the difference between 'getting away with it' and 'getting a ride in an ambulance'. Somone on this site has a sig line along those same lines. It goes 'The most dangerous thing you can do is bust a BSR and get away with it because then it makes you think the BSR isn't important'. I've got grass stains on both my jumpsuits and my rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #5 November 4, 2011 QuoteI mean if he stood it up next to the cone How many f'ing times do we have to go through this!!!!!!! I'm pretty damm sure I can land a Velo 99 fine once, right next to the peas too! I'm pretty damm sure I can land it fine most of the times actually. But I'm also prety damm sure I dont jump often enough (say, less than 500 jumps a year) to be able to deal with it all the time.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #6 November 4, 2011 I'm also a stickler for the rules. I would not jump w/ a guy like that."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spikes2020 0 #7 November 4, 2011 Quote This is a very poor way to judge the skill of a canopy pilot, and I would advise against using that metric to determine your own skills or when making equipment selection. There could be more to this story what if the guy is 120lbs... and all they had to rent was 230s? I don't think i would ever jump a 99 or let alone anything less than a 170 for a long time, but i am saying that some people do learn faster than others and yes 50-60 jumps isn't much but we still don't have all the details. ALL i wanted to know was if he landed it fine or busted his ass. A few more details would be nice too like how the remaining of his day went and stuff but damn you dont have to bite my head off....Cheers Jon W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #8 November 4, 2011 Ask you DZO why he thinks it a good idea to let someone with less than 100 jumps jump a camera and fly a 135 against every recommendation out there. If you're genuninely worriedd about this, the way to deal with it is to simply refuse to be on a plane with the idiot. If enough people do it, he'll either be told to get his shit together, or be sent packing. You may miss a couple of loads, but you won't be in the sky with a flying crater. Also, have him read the 'Watching out for Newbies' thread in this forum. When he says 'I'm not a newbie', or 'I've got mad skills', tell him to get his head out of his ass and to talk to Sangi, the subject of that thread - and he had 3 times the number of jumps your friend had. He was standing up all of his landings fine too - right up to the point he femured in as we all predicted. Have him read the incidents thread and look at the photo of Sangi lying in the grass, struggling to breathe and broken. Your mate is on the same path. Edit: Spikes - this is why newbies are so dangerous to themselves; they simply don't have a full enough understanding of skydiving to know what risks they're taking. It's not quite as simple as his weight, or even his skill - even if they guy is 120 pounds, smaller canopies fly and react differently to big ones, even at the same wingloading. You might get away with it for a while, but you're reducing the margin for error in learning to almost zero. Combine that with the camera flying, and to me it shows a dangerous attitude, or a lack of understanding of the risks he's putting himself and others in. However, if you said this to him, I'm prepared to put $20 on him saying one of the following: "It's not a distraction" "I just turn it on and forget about it" "I only use it for solos" "Hot shit canopy pilot X says I'll be fine" "I fly conservatively" "Some people learn faster than others" "I'm attending / have attended a canopy class" "I'm not going to swoop" "The old guys are just jelous of young guys who are better than them" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ghost47 18 #9 November 4, 2011 QuoteThere could be more to this story what if the guy is 120lbs... and all they had to rent was 230s? Then rent a 230. Or buy your own gear. Or don't jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Austintxflight 0 #10 November 4, 2011 The guy weighed the same as me, 150lbs. So an exit weigh WL of about 1.3 I was on a rental silhouette 190, had a great time with it. the rig was one he bought. Apparently the progression he was on was jump a rig 5 times in high wind, 5 times in low wind, 5 times in no wind, stick the landings, downsize. I didn't see his landing, it wasn't bad from what I saw but I can tell, landed in the landing area and was upright and fine. but I just can't believe that 60 jumps in you can progress from student 200+ canopy to a 135. Just haven't had enough experience to justify it. Also +1 to the guy saying at lower weight wing loading isn't the same, the air molecules don't shrink, as a little guy I can say that you just can't simply go with the wing loading number someone 60lbs heavier uses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #11 November 4, 2011 ...i feel like I was jumping with a future corpse. Quote Stick with the sport long enough and not only will you get that feeling now & then, sometimes you'll be proven right. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #12 November 4, 2011 QuoteA few more details would be nice too like how the remaining of his day went and stuff but damn you dont have to bite my head off.... Look pal, if you think I 'bit your head off', you need to toughen up or you're going to have a tough time in skydiving. To be fair (to me) your statement was complete, and contained none of the 'what if's' you added in your response to me. You're new, and should keep two things in mind, the first is that you learn way more listening than talking. The other is that you have to be very careful what you say when talking about skydiving and safety related situations. People will take what you say to heart and apply it to themselves regardless of the validity of your statement, or if it applies to their specific situation. Considering what is at risk, you have to be VERY careful when you make a statement condoning one course of action or another. Disapproaving of an idea is fair game. If something looks iffy to you, speak your mind as nobody ever got hurt based on choosing to not do something. However, approving of something is another story, you better be dman sure you have all the facts and understand every aspect of a situaiton before encouraging another jumper to do anything. You can never go wrong keeping your mouth shut if you approve of a situation, just let it be, and things will work themselves out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #13 November 4, 2011 >I mean if he stood it up next to the cone, i'd say is doing fine. No, he's not. You could take a whuffo off the street, put a rig on them, put them on a plane, talk to them for 10 minutes while the plane is climbing, push them out the door at 12,500 feet - and 9 out of 10 would land without injury. 2 out of 10 would do a decent job. That does not mean that those 2 are "doing fine." It means they got lucky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #14 November 4, 2011 Quote ...but i am saying that some people do learn faster than others and yes 50-60 jumps isn't much but we still don't have all the details. You/we don't need anymore details. At 50-60 jumps you don't even know the right questions to ask yet, let alone what you do or don't know in this sport. I was working with a newer jumper just this past weekend who has OVER 200 jumps, but was doing his first solo wing suit jump. I was watching his exit to provide coaching to him later. When he came over for a gear check and to talk about it one last time he had his GoPro on facing backwards. I kindly asked him to remove it, reminding him that he'll have many future chances to wear it, but why add another distraction to an already new and stressful situation. He took it off and it's a good thing as if he'd had it on during that first exit, the camera would have probably hit the tail. I saw him later in the day doing another WS jump and this time the camera was no where to be found. Good kid and I can't wait to get my WS out and go flying with him. That is the kind of attitude that will take him a long ways in this sport. Please read these two threads if you don't believe me. I think you would do good to take a careful look at that statement about people learning faster than others. The incident threads are full of those that learned faster than others and are well... no longer with us or best case just got broken up badly. Thread One Thread Two Take care, BK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Austintxflight 0 #15 November 4, 2011 To be honest, while we were jumping I was thinking, Sangi!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #16 November 4, 2011 Quote To be honest, while we were jumping I was thinking, Sangi!!!! Good that shows that your starting to learn some good skydiving judgement. *disclaimer, that is NOT a slight in anyway to Sangi either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #17 November 4, 2011 QuoteI've got grass stains on both my jumpsuits and my rig. Yea some of my best landings are in cloud of dust and dirt and grass....you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #18 November 4, 2011 >To be honest, while we were jumping I was thinking, Sangi! I think Sangi's learned a lot over the past few weeks. V-B might be a better example now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,150 #19 November 4, 2011 QuoteYea some of my best landings are in cloud of dust and dirt and grass....My best landings are the ones that require skill -- catch a gust at landing, cut off and have to turn, the ground is uneven, I'm out for some reason -- and I walk back smiling. Any of those might be cause for not standing up, and that's fine. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 150 #20 November 4, 2011 QuoteQuote This is a very poor way to judge the skill of a canopy pilot, and I would advise against using that metric to determine your own skills or when making equipment selection. There could be more to this story what if the guy is 120lbs... and all they had to rent was 230s? I don't think i would ever jump a 99 or let alone anything less than a 170 for a long time, but i am saying that some people do learn faster than others and yes 50-60 jumps isn't much but we still don't have all the details. ALL i wanted to know was if he landed it fine or busted his ass. A few more details would be nice too like how the remaining of his day went and stuff but damn you dont have to bite my head off.... I suggest that you read the SIM especially the sections on equipment and canopy flight. You'll see that anything below 150sq foot is not advised for anyone with less than 500 jumps. Remember that the people who wrote the guidelines in the SIM are skydivers, not whuffo's. They are there to protect US. People get away with it. I jumped with a guy who had ~70 jumps and he had a Stilleto 135. I always thought it was youngsters that did that kind of thing, but he was late forties.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #21 November 4, 2011 QuoteQuote This is a very poor way to judge the skill of a canopy pilot, and I would advise against using that metric to determine your own skills or when making equipment selection. There could be more to this story what if the guy is 120lbs... and all they had to rent was 230s? I don't think i would ever jump a 99 or let alone anything less than a 170 for a long time, but i am saying that some people do learn faster than others and yes 50-60 jumps isn't much but we still don't have all the details. ALL i wanted to know was if he landed it fine or busted his ass. A few more details would be nice too like how the remaining of his day went and stuff but damn you dont have to bite my head off.... Please go read all the threads pertaining to Sangi...STAT!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rnicks 0 #22 November 4, 2011 QuoteYou'll see that anything below 150sq foot is not advised for anyone with less than 500 jumps. Can you (or anybody) provide a link to this? The closest thing I can find is in 6-10 B3d http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section6/tabid/169/Default.aspx#1072 which doesn't say 500 jumps. Of course anything under a 150 is considered high performance though 500 jumps seems awful conservative. However, the above link does state that anything under a 150 is considered advanced. At just under 600 jumps I definitely am NOT considered advanced, however I did just downsize to a canopy smaller than 150 to a wl of 1.1. I do realize that wingloading on smaller canopies does not equate to the same on larger canopies. I just did not think of my transition as being too aggressive. edit: spelling Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrubin 0 #23 November 4, 2011 Quote...downsized to a safire 135. I'm thinking ok, crazy but I don't have to deal with him under canopy, so its his own deal. If you're in the air at the same time as him, you do have to deal with him under canopy. Canopy collisions are a major problem and having an inexperienced canopy pilot flying a canopy that's too small and too fast for him/her is a danger to everyone in the air."I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 150 #24 November 4, 2011 QuoteQuoteYou'll see that anything below 150sq foot is not advised for anyone with less than 500 jumps. Can you (or anybody) provide a link to this? The closest thing I can find is in 6-10 B3d http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section6/tabid/169/Default.aspx#1072 which doesn't say 500 jumps. Of course anything under a 150 is considered high performance though 500 jumps seems awful conservative. However, the above link does state that anything under a 150 is considered advanced. At just under 600 jumps I definitely am NOT considered advanced, however I did just downsize to a canopy smaller than 150 to a wl of 1.1. I do realize that wingloading on smaller canopies does not equate to the same on larger canopies. I just did not think of my transition as being too aggressive. edit: spelling SIM section 5-3 part 6. Quote6. Any parachute 150 square feet or smaller is considered a high-performance parachute and falls into the D license guideline regardless of the wing loading I have quoted 500 jumps as that is the requirement for a D license. For some reason the wingloading recommendations are under equipment not canopy flight in the SIM.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rnicks 0 #25 November 4, 2011 Thanks! Then I was certainly a rule breaker. I have well over 500 jumps now but seeing as I will never get a D license, I suppose I will always be a rule breaker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
davelepka 4 #12 November 4, 2011 QuoteA few more details would be nice too like how the remaining of his day went and stuff but damn you dont have to bite my head off.... Look pal, if you think I 'bit your head off', you need to toughen up or you're going to have a tough time in skydiving. To be fair (to me) your statement was complete, and contained none of the 'what if's' you added in your response to me. You're new, and should keep two things in mind, the first is that you learn way more listening than talking. The other is that you have to be very careful what you say when talking about skydiving and safety related situations. People will take what you say to heart and apply it to themselves regardless of the validity of your statement, or if it applies to their specific situation. Considering what is at risk, you have to be VERY careful when you make a statement condoning one course of action or another. Disapproaving of an idea is fair game. If something looks iffy to you, speak your mind as nobody ever got hurt based on choosing to not do something. However, approving of something is another story, you better be dman sure you have all the facts and understand every aspect of a situaiton before encouraging another jumper to do anything. You can never go wrong keeping your mouth shut if you approve of a situation, just let it be, and things will work themselves out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #13 November 4, 2011 >I mean if he stood it up next to the cone, i'd say is doing fine. No, he's not. You could take a whuffo off the street, put a rig on them, put them on a plane, talk to them for 10 minutes while the plane is climbing, push them out the door at 12,500 feet - and 9 out of 10 would land without injury. 2 out of 10 would do a decent job. That does not mean that those 2 are "doing fine." It means they got lucky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #14 November 4, 2011 Quote ...but i am saying that some people do learn faster than others and yes 50-60 jumps isn't much but we still don't have all the details. You/we don't need anymore details. At 50-60 jumps you don't even know the right questions to ask yet, let alone what you do or don't know in this sport. I was working with a newer jumper just this past weekend who has OVER 200 jumps, but was doing his first solo wing suit jump. I was watching his exit to provide coaching to him later. When he came over for a gear check and to talk about it one last time he had his GoPro on facing backwards. I kindly asked him to remove it, reminding him that he'll have many future chances to wear it, but why add another distraction to an already new and stressful situation. He took it off and it's a good thing as if he'd had it on during that first exit, the camera would have probably hit the tail. I saw him later in the day doing another WS jump and this time the camera was no where to be found. Good kid and I can't wait to get my WS out and go flying with him. That is the kind of attitude that will take him a long ways in this sport. Please read these two threads if you don't believe me. I think you would do good to take a careful look at that statement about people learning faster than others. The incident threads are full of those that learned faster than others and are well... no longer with us or best case just got broken up badly. Thread One Thread Two Take care, BK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Austintxflight 0 #15 November 4, 2011 To be honest, while we were jumping I was thinking, Sangi!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #16 November 4, 2011 Quote To be honest, while we were jumping I was thinking, Sangi!!!! Good that shows that your starting to learn some good skydiving judgement. *disclaimer, that is NOT a slight in anyway to Sangi either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #17 November 4, 2011 QuoteI've got grass stains on both my jumpsuits and my rig. Yea some of my best landings are in cloud of dust and dirt and grass....you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #18 November 4, 2011 >To be honest, while we were jumping I was thinking, Sangi! I think Sangi's learned a lot over the past few weeks. V-B might be a better example now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,150 #19 November 4, 2011 QuoteYea some of my best landings are in cloud of dust and dirt and grass....My best landings are the ones that require skill -- catch a gust at landing, cut off and have to turn, the ground is uneven, I'm out for some reason -- and I walk back smiling. Any of those might be cause for not standing up, and that's fine. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 150 #20 November 4, 2011 QuoteQuote This is a very poor way to judge the skill of a canopy pilot, and I would advise against using that metric to determine your own skills or when making equipment selection. There could be more to this story what if the guy is 120lbs... and all they had to rent was 230s? I don't think i would ever jump a 99 or let alone anything less than a 170 for a long time, but i am saying that some people do learn faster than others and yes 50-60 jumps isn't much but we still don't have all the details. ALL i wanted to know was if he landed it fine or busted his ass. A few more details would be nice too like how the remaining of his day went and stuff but damn you dont have to bite my head off.... I suggest that you read the SIM especially the sections on equipment and canopy flight. You'll see that anything below 150sq foot is not advised for anyone with less than 500 jumps. Remember that the people who wrote the guidelines in the SIM are skydivers, not whuffo's. They are there to protect US. People get away with it. I jumped with a guy who had ~70 jumps and he had a Stilleto 135. I always thought it was youngsters that did that kind of thing, but he was late forties.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #21 November 4, 2011 QuoteQuote This is a very poor way to judge the skill of a canopy pilot, and I would advise against using that metric to determine your own skills or when making equipment selection. There could be more to this story what if the guy is 120lbs... and all they had to rent was 230s? I don't think i would ever jump a 99 or let alone anything less than a 170 for a long time, but i am saying that some people do learn faster than others and yes 50-60 jumps isn't much but we still don't have all the details. ALL i wanted to know was if he landed it fine or busted his ass. A few more details would be nice too like how the remaining of his day went and stuff but damn you dont have to bite my head off.... Please go read all the threads pertaining to Sangi...STAT!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rnicks 0 #22 November 4, 2011 QuoteYou'll see that anything below 150sq foot is not advised for anyone with less than 500 jumps. Can you (or anybody) provide a link to this? The closest thing I can find is in 6-10 B3d http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section6/tabid/169/Default.aspx#1072 which doesn't say 500 jumps. Of course anything under a 150 is considered high performance though 500 jumps seems awful conservative. However, the above link does state that anything under a 150 is considered advanced. At just under 600 jumps I definitely am NOT considered advanced, however I did just downsize to a canopy smaller than 150 to a wl of 1.1. I do realize that wingloading on smaller canopies does not equate to the same on larger canopies. I just did not think of my transition as being too aggressive. edit: spelling Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrubin 0 #23 November 4, 2011 Quote...downsized to a safire 135. I'm thinking ok, crazy but I don't have to deal with him under canopy, so its his own deal. If you're in the air at the same time as him, you do have to deal with him under canopy. Canopy collisions are a major problem and having an inexperienced canopy pilot flying a canopy that's too small and too fast for him/her is a danger to everyone in the air."I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 150 #24 November 4, 2011 QuoteQuoteYou'll see that anything below 150sq foot is not advised for anyone with less than 500 jumps. Can you (or anybody) provide a link to this? The closest thing I can find is in 6-10 B3d http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section6/tabid/169/Default.aspx#1072 which doesn't say 500 jumps. Of course anything under a 150 is considered high performance though 500 jumps seems awful conservative. However, the above link does state that anything under a 150 is considered advanced. At just under 600 jumps I definitely am NOT considered advanced, however I did just downsize to a canopy smaller than 150 to a wl of 1.1. I do realize that wingloading on smaller canopies does not equate to the same on larger canopies. I just did not think of my transition as being too aggressive. edit: spelling SIM section 5-3 part 6. Quote6. Any parachute 150 square feet or smaller is considered a high-performance parachute and falls into the D license guideline regardless of the wing loading I have quoted 500 jumps as that is the requirement for a D license. For some reason the wingloading recommendations are under equipment not canopy flight in the SIM.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rnicks 0 #25 November 4, 2011 Thanks! Then I was certainly a rule breaker. I have well over 500 jumps now but seeing as I will never get a D license, I suppose I will always be a rule breaker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
