USPA's stand on tandem vid requirements????

[IMGR2 0]

They make rules for AFF, Tandem and Static line but I can't interpret where they stand on letting someone strap heavy amounts of camera equipment on thier heads and fly in very close proximity to a person who is extremely nieve of what skydiving skills we actually have.

I am lucky and honored to have apprenticed under one of the best cameramen I have ever known. He put me through a lot of hard work and many trials before he would let me fly with a tandem.

I am now thankful to him for that by way of my skills and safety knowledge. I am not only shooting a video in freefall, as I fly around I am also looking over gear making sure everything is where it should be.

It has just happened in front of my face at my last dz and I have seen it happen before.
Someone walks in with camera equipment and the dz owner puts safety aside because he is in need of a camera person right away. Maybe these people have the skills maybe they don't, how do you know.

I have recently been witness to someone going up to shoot a tandem video who had never even jumped by a tandem nor had shot a video in freefall.

Am I wrong to want something to be done or should I not even care about the safety of the tandem student?


I guess what I'm asking is if USPA requires you to fill certain requirements to take a tandem why not for the videographer as well.

[DSE 3]

USPA *does* offer recommendations for vidiots, or at least for persons shooting video in the air, and the tandem manufacturers have their own recommendations.
I can't disagree however, that it's probably a good concept to have USPA offer a rating, or at least some semblance of discipline regarding jump#'s, experience, currency, etc. I've watched a guy that was allowed to start lurking tandems at jump 100 and begin shooting video at jump 120. He's very good, but knows nothing of photography, hasn't really grasped the potential dangers of what could happen, etc.
Norm Kent attempted to address some of this in his new video, FWIW. Too many people are strapping cameras on too early, predominantly because "they can" rather than being qualified.

[freefalle 0]

it is the responsiblity of the tandem instructor and the dzo to ensure the qualifications their camera flyers. The USPA is not a regulatory agency which means they have no "enforecement" powers so many times I read post about the "uspa needs to...." in reality, these post need to read the "DZO owner needs to...."

Threads have been posted in the past about skydivers fearing FAA regulation of this sport, and the response has been "skydivers police their own and the USPA assist in that"

Skydiving is a hard sport to regulate when the overseeing agency can only make recommendations and cant enforce rules because they don't have enforcement authority. theoretically as long as you have a tandem rig a medical certificate ( because the FAA requires it) and a place to jump that rig, you dont even have to have a tandem rating because there is no law that says you have to have a tandem rating.

flying a camera works the same way, right off aff, got the money for a hemlet and camera's ? the only thing stopping someone from flying that camera on a tandem is the DZO and the tandem instructor because theres no LAW or enforceable regualtion saying they cant do it. SO who is truly responsible for the safety of those in the air the DZO and the Tandem instructor because they are the only one who can actually prevent and inexperienced person from flying that camera where they shouldn't be.

[IMGR2 0]

Well here is an example for you.

My last dz has made the statement that I could not assist on AFF jumps any longer per USPA rules and regs.
I am not rated although I have more experience as well as more aff jumps than the chief instructor.

If they are so adament to enforce those rules it obviously isn't for safety issues, it is solely for pleasing USPA.

So my point is to ask USPA or the tandem manufactures to make a rule or reg to control WHO is in the air with them specifically for safety reasons.

I asked the chief instructor as well as the dzo(who is not a skydiver) why they choose to endanger peoples lives with someone who is so inexperienced and they keep refering to FAA and USPA rules saying that they are not breaking any rules.

All that I can do now is pray that no one gets hurt do to ignorance or inexperience.

[PhreeZone 15]

RWS recommends or at least used to that anyone flying in proximity to a tandem neededto have a Tandem or AFF rating.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rwieder 0]

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My last dz has made the statement that I could not assist on AFF jumps any longer per USPA rules and regs. I am not rated although I have more experience as well as more aff jumps than the chief instructor.

Man, get over yourself. I'm not trying to crack wise, but i sense a ton of resentment in your remarks, because other's get to do what you weren't allowed to do. That's no reason to rain on someone elses parade.

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So my point is to ask USPA or the tandem manufactures to make a rule or reg to control WHO is in the air with them specifically for safety reasons.

Is it your position that the USPA can't govern without your input? Surely not.

TM1's will generally say who they will, and won't fly with. So i can't see running to the high school principle as it were. (The USPA) Why not complain to the Dz's S&TA first? Or why not use your experience to help in the training process of low time vidiots. I am a fledgling vidiot, maybe 100 jumps with a cam helmut so far. I built my own helmuts, i know they're not as cool as everybody else's, but that will come with time. I have not even asked to film anything, or anybody yet because i'm still in the experimentation stage with my different camera suits, and helmut cam setups. "Every man has got to know his limitations" Please accept my remarks in the spirit in which they were intended.

Good luck, best wishes.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[DSE 3]

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Well here is an example for you.

My last dz has made the statement that I could not assist on AFF jumps any longer per USPA rules and regs.
I am not rated although I have more experience as well as more aff jumps than the chief instructor.

.

That simply makes no sense. There are no USPA "rules and regs" on this subject. None. Recommendations, yes. Not rules.
Per the SIM, section 6-8E/c:
c. A USPA C license is recommended.
d. The jumper should have made at least 50 recent
jumps on the same parachute equipment to be
used for camera flying,....

Section 6-8F:
CONSIDERATIONS FOR FILMING STUDENTS
1. Refer to the USPA Instructional Rating Manual for
guidelines on minimum experience and qualifications
for flying camera for student training jumps.
a. A skydiver should have extensive camera
flying experience with experienced jumpers prior
to photographing or videoing student jumps.

A C license is recommended, but not required. Moreover, these are *recommendations* and not rules.

Should the USPA consider a camera rating? Possibly. Benefits are far outweighed by the detriments at this time, IMO, but should it be considered? I don't see why not. If they were "rules" vs "recommendations," I'd feel differently. We don't need more "rules."
Recently I listened to a guy with nearly 5k skydives whining off about how many camera flyers there are and how they all suck. He went on to cry about how they're taking money out of his pocket while they all suck. His opinion was that the USPA should require at least 500 jumps and a rating like AFF I to jump with tandems or students. Well...that recomendation already exists.
The person he was whining to asked him "How many fun jumps have you made with other camera flyers to teach them how to suck less?" The response was "None. I don't want to teach anyone my techniques." Poor baby. Figure something else out, because new people are always coming up underneath you. It would be terrific if someone would write a USPA sponsored training program for camera flyers, and perhaps offer it as an add-on rating to other ratings after the C license. That would probably make some DZO's very happy. Perhaps it could be privatized, and a facility like SDU could offer a course/rating that is private but respected.

Look at the lengthy thread in this forum about camera guys going out attached to a Tandem student harness. This forum talked about how dangerous and dumb that is.
A few months later that same poster went into a thread on Safety and basically told everyone to f@!#%! off if they didn't like him backflying directly beneath tandems. He didn't understand the ramifications of a premature deployment and then went on to say "The lesson to be learned is to prevent premature deployments" (I'd say he missed the point), but a rating wouldn't have prevented him from being there, doing what he's doing. Nor would a "rule" have prevented it. What we need is self-policing and DZO's that aren't willing to allow 100 jump wonders to be filming tandems or other activities. Made me crazy to see a 100 jump wonder start jumping with tandems recently, and at the same time, hear the TM's whine about how slow he is to position, and how he can't match their fall rate.

Back to point, USPA probably *should* consider beefing up the various levels of recommendations, and perhaps create an add-on rating, because as cameras become cheaper, lighter, and higher quality, more people are sticking them on their heads for whatever purpose. A training program or at least some information from a sanctioned agency might help get the word out.

[chopchop 0]

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All that I can do now is pray that no one gets hurt do to ignorance or inexperience.

Or get your rating so the dzo doesn't have to break the rules and you can do the jumps.

chopchop
gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking..

Lotsa Pictures

[skydance1954 0]

Hm - since I've never had a tandem rating, and my AFF rating has long since lapsed, then under that recomendation I shouldn't be doing video with tandems. Since you know me, Phree, would you say that I should refrain from doing so in the future?

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[Laszloimage 0]

I just have to agree with you... There's a same issue with the high performance canopies too. I'm totally on that side to have a "video rating" if the person is involved with AFF or Tandem videos because he/she part of the skydive and should be responsible just as much as the instructors.
But skydiving is a very liberal activity (that's why we like it...) so it's hard to regulate it whitout killing its "magic".
Unfurunatelly we cant teach and enforce common sense.
-Laszlo-

[Icon134 0]

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Hm - since I've never had a tandem rating, and my AFF rating has long since lapsed, then under that recomendation I shouldn't be doing video with tandems. Since you know me, Phree, would you say that I should refrain from doing so in the future?

I don't think Phree is suggesting that I think he was merely pointing out that there are manufacturers who have suggested requirements for jumping with tandems.

Personally I didn't start jumping with tandems until I was invited to do so by TI's and before I did so I had at least 100 jumps flying video with experienced jumpers. I also got a very thorough briefing before jumping with a student and took my time...

I still need a lot of work to get the skill that guys like Mike and Phree have but I believe I'm safe in the sky during student jumps.


er... wait... Mike I think you are extremely dangerous in the sky flying camera and should hang up your rig and never do it again... (of course I'm kidding... ) Thanks for all the help you've given me over the last year or so...

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[skydance1954 0]

I know he's not suggesting anything of the sort, I'm just stirring the pot. But there is a point to this - while the recomendations listed above are a good start, the factors of flying skills, awareness, and consistency must also be part of the equation. I believe that a prospective tandem videographer should demonstrate all of the above to the satisfaction of the DZO and the primary instructor at a given DZ.

After all, if same videographer is going to do 4-way video, he's going to have to prove it to the team. And they won't have any problem bumping him if he can't produce. So why not have a similar requirement for customers who are paying a lot more per jump? The prospective videographer should go up on his own dime a bunch of times and film something prior to doing real tandems. We have a DZO, and a head instructor at most DZs, why not a prime videographer for training and safety purposes?

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[DSE 3]

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The prospective videographer should go up on his own dime a bunch of times and film something prior to doing real tandems. We have a DZO, and a head instructor at most DZs, why not a prime videographer for training and safety purposes?

you mean there are DZ's that *don't* do it this way?

[Zee 0]

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The prospective videographer should go up on his own dime a bunch of times and film something prior to doing real tandems. We have a DZO, and a head instructor at most DZs, why not a prime videographer for training and safety purposes?

you mean there are DZ's that *don't* do it this way?

They're all over the place. Not gonna name names but they're most certainly out there.

Action©Sports

[skydance1954 0]

Zee is correct. There are DZs out there that don't. And that goes for both the US and Canada.

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[DSE 3]

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Zee is correct. There are DZs out there that don't. And that goes for both the US and Canada.

What a protected lil' world I live in.
Our DZ;
~At least 10 jumps with tandems that didn't order vid, DZO or DZM review your tapes. (your nickel)
~DZM or DZO flies one/some of those with you to evaluate how you're flying (your nickel)
~TM's talk to DZM or DZO (or both) about how they feel about you flying w/them.

Either you're cleared to fly or not. But you still don't get to be in the rotation until you've got a lot of flying under your belt.
You've got to be able to demonstrate other skills as well, but there is no formal program. I know of formal programs that have been written but not yet implemented.

[PhreeZone 15]

Yep, I've helped a few upcoming jumpers by pointing out where they can improve prior to them ever getting a paid jump. I actually perfer to see them go out and shoot a few videos on level of a RW group or two before anything else since it does take different flying to get on level vs above like most RW is shot. The RW jumpers can at least move if something is off like someone is driving too much due to their wings or something.

I was pointing out earlier that at least RWS has recommendations. Not all the manufactors have those even.

I do thinkthat anyone going out with a tandem should be firmiliar with the tandem rig they are in the air with so they can spot potential issues and assist the TM by pointing them out. Things like floating handles and other items that are not present on a sport rig can be looked at in freefall and communicated so the TM is aware of it but it takes knowledge of the tandem gear to allow that to happen.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skinnyshrek 0]

I am sick of people shooting video when they have no business being in the air. It is not just their fault it is also the DZo's that let these idiots shoot videos. If you want to learn, learn on your own dime. Nothing more embarrasing than watching a really shitty video being sold.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[Zee 0]

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What a protected lil' world I live in.

lol!

Most (not all....but most) turbine DZ's have a pretty good idea of what they find acceptable quality of video and they'll usually put you through the ringer before they'll put you on rotation. But there are tons of little 182 DZ's out there that simply don't attract the talent and often they'll accept pretty much anyone with a camera helmet....

Action©Sports

[DSE 3]

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I am sick of people shooting video when they have no business being in the air. It is not just their fault it is also the DZo's that let these idiots shoot videos. If you want to learn, learn on your own dime. Nothing more embarrasing than watching a really shitty video being sold.

I dunno...seeing fat old guys jumping nude is more embarassing.

[skinnyshrek 0]

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I am sick of people shooting video when they have no business being in the air. It is not just their fault it is also the DZo's that let these idiots shoot videos. If you want to learn, learn on your own dime. Nothing more embarrasing than watching a really shitty video being sold.

I dunno...seeing fat old guys jumping nude is more embarassing.

only done 5 naked jumps and i was skinny at the time seriously, don't you hate it when wannabee video guys try and sell their shit to customers.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[DSE 3]

Well...some folks would call me a "wanna-bee" video guy, because I've only got some 200 camera jumps. On the ground, I'm not too bad, in the air, I can see room for a LOT of improvement, I'm not flying as well as my eye can take me, but I'll say that I feel I've got a better eye than many camera guys I've seen. I just can't quite yet get my body where my eye sees the shot as fast as I'd like.
To the other side of the argument, I've seen a lot of crap video from camera flyers, too. Yes, it bothers me, because their work is likely seen by many as a reflection of the work of the general group of flyers. Sad...but...I'm trying to do something about it.
While I don't mean to push Norman's new DVD set, that's sort of what the second disc is about; making better video, learning the in/outs of the techniques.
Hopefully, it'll inspire camera flyers to fly better, to be more interested in their video. Camera flyers, IMO, should overall be bored in flight, but that doesn't mean they can't be inspired. There is always a better angle, always a better exposure, always a better composition waiting around the corner. Once in a while you get that "once in a lifetime" image. Then you get guys like Norman, Laszlo, Mike McGowan...they get those once in a lifetime images every few days. But...even a rock aspires to be better.
Didn't mean to go on so long...I love what I'm allowed and inspired to do, and find it such a wonderful extension of my ground work...and in saying that...surely do appreciate this group for the resource it is.

[stratostar 5]

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seriously, don't you hate it when wannabee video guys try and sell their shit to customers

Even when you've done tons of videos you can still have an off day, shit happens. Couple weeks ago I did 3 TDM vids and something happend on all 3 jumps, one I had contol over but the other two fuck ups were out of my control. (recording pixalated lines/stripes over the landing shot and hitting the zoom & zooming in when climbing back in AC when TDM did want to go, so when we did go it was still zoomed in.) In this case the two that did turn out had good pre -freefall-post jump no landings the other got some free stills.

Now not my best day for sure but it happends, good to be humbled once and a while, it keep you in check. There is always room to improve no matter how good you are, and no matter how good your are, you will have your off days too.

But I have seen many DZO's let or ask people who just strapped cams on (some on the first cam jump ever) to do a TDM videos and other forms of really really bad videos and your right it sucks to sell shit video, it also sucks to have to tell a FJS sorry (fill in blank) happend and your video didn't turn out.

It also would depend on how you define "shit video". What I think looks kick ass, DSE might think sucks ass. Right now the industry is a lot like it was 10 to 15 yrs ago when dv was just starting to show up. You had guys jumping cams that let tape flutter bad and no editing at all, if you were lucky you got a music track over lay and a roll of film handed to you.

You would only find a few people who had fancy edit boards, till later on then only fulltime flyers had all the toys and very,very,very few DZO's owned anything to do production. This is still true today.

The videos took on a whole new look, more MTV like if you will, all fancied up now with titles, trans and fades and music. It's now was a production, but as time has gone on we see the change again now with DV/HDV and more people going to editing on computers and boards like the MX-1 are out and have fade'n away for sometime now. The DZO's who did buy editing systems (not many) got the MX-1 types as most of us who had our own systems were selling them to go to computers and go all digital.

Let's keep in mind now how much investment we have had to make over the years to do the job, when many couldn't or wouldn't. Those of you are just getting into flying the camera in the last 8 years or so have had it pretty easy in terms of equipment you have got to use and the prices you paid for the toys. Yet at the same time the rate of pay has stayed the same or in some cases gone down, (and I can't believe how many clowns sign up to give away digital stills for free or 5 bucks), yet your expected to be self contained and supply all your own stuff or pay an in house.

For the rates being charged to the TDM's and AFF's by the dzo's for vidoe and stills, the customers really have no room to bitch these days for the types of productions being done on most dz's these days. It is so under valued, because it is under sold for what they get in return.

In fact I submit that they aren't paying enough for video alone and dz's going all digital stills now but only paying 5.00 or in some place nothing extra at all.... There will always be the raman noodle chasers who will buy used (cheap as they can) stuff off those "jones" folks (who have to have the hot new shit) they will hop on a load for free video and stills or just enough to eat dinner and breakfast the next day. There will always be that clown living on the dz and working for scraps, beer and bong hits! I know, I was one once too, till a grew up and got a job, a house and a working car to drive.

And that clown will always be the guy the DZO use's first no matter how years/loyal you been around or how crappy a job he dose.

Go price some rates for a sitting at a studio and see how under paid video and still image production is in our sport for the risk/investment involved to aquire those frames. In the future we'll have a bunch of POPS jumpers who all have neck problems and can't hold their heads up anymore due the weight and G force's over the years.(we are the living long term medical study) Make sure your setting aside enough money to pay for your health.

What is someones stuff, is shit to some other. What is shit to some other, is stuff to someone.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[skinnyshrek 0]

I think anyone that doesn't have bad day is a liar. I still try and learn from every jump i shoot.
What, i was trying to get across is the people who are shooting videos with half their head in the screen, to long to get to the tandem the usual newbie stuff. We have all been there but when that said person tries to sell the video to the customer is what i don't agree with.
As for editing, i would say that is one of my need to improve. I still use linear, useless with computers

Also, why do some TI's bitch that video guys get paid more?

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[napaguy99 0]

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Go price some rates for a sitting at a studio and see how under paid video and still image production is in our sport for the risk/investment involved to aquire those frames.

Are you implying that we should charge more than $70-$100+ (at some DZs) and the customer will be willing to pay that much as well? Good luck selling videos to someone who has already paid upwards of $200+ for their jump.

"Let the misinterpretation and attacks begin."