hsaddler 0 #1 May 28, 2003 I'm looking to buy a used rig (my first, @ 30 jumps) and notice that sellers cite the number of sub-terminal reserve deployments. How big a deal is it to have a reserve that's had a non-sub-terminal (super-terminal?) ride? I suppose it'd be useful to know how non-sub-terminal it was, i.e. was it deployed at 120mph? 200? Assuming I won't always be able to find that out, is a visual inspection sufficient to ensure that the reserve is in acceptable condition? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #2 May 28, 2003 I wouldnt buy a reserve with more than one ride personally.. but if you feel comfortable with it and the riggers compentence when inspecting it then I say go for it.. jsut because a reserve was deployed doesnt mean its toast, jsut have a rigger look it over very carefuly (as all of them shoudl anyways) to ensure it is airworthy. -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,130 #3 May 28, 2003 If you dumped your reserve, would you immediately trash it? Probably not. I sure didn't. It's a data point in the sale. PD limits the number of times it wants a reserve used/repacked before it's sent back to the factory for a factory inspection. Normally it reduces the price a little, but it really shouldn't by a lot. One thing about a reserve that's been used, though, is that I would most likely insist on a rigger I actually knew having inspected it, rather than that person's local rigger. And I'm a very trusting person. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Clownburner 0 #4 May 28, 2003 Usually it's the packing that wears them out more than the deployments, although a ultra-high-speed deployment that blew out lines or cells would result in obvious repairs (and I don't think I'd feel good about that). I went back and forth on this issue, and it came down to wanting a reserve that had opened and worked at least once before, so I actually looked for (and found) a nice big PDR with 2 rides on it (and about 12 packs), that had been tested and inspected by (my) master rigger, and deemed 100%. I figured that those extra inspections and few deployments insure that the next time it works (to save my life) it's got a very high chance of working as designed. A new, untested reserve, even from a company with as good a reputation as PD, just made me a little more nervous. And the extra $250 I saved helped pay for a Cypres, so it's all good. But it's about personal comfort levels.7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez "I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #5 May 28, 2003 Quote I wouldnt buy a reserve with more than one ride personally.. but if you feel comfortable with it and the riggers compentence when inspecting it then I say go for it.. jsut because a reserve was deployed doesnt mean its toast, Does that mean if you have two reserve ride you would then buy a new one?? Or just find another rigger who is compentant?? A rigger should Always inspect a reserve canopy during a repack with or without a deployment. If the canopy only lasts a time or two, I'd look for another manufacturer! Check with your local rigger and have him inspect the canopy before you buy or have the manufacturer do so. He/She/the manufacturer should know what to look for. There are "signs" that a rigger will see indicating high loads or abuse. Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #6 May 28, 2003 Quote I suppose it'd be useful to know how non-sub-terminal it was, i.e. was it deployed at 120mph? 200? Subterminal usually implies ____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #8 May 28, 2003 My tempo is max at 130 knots. not sure about max load as I've upsized it recently.____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #9 May 28, 2003 QuoteReserves have a max loading and airspeed on them. Ever check them out? I wonder what speed and loading they drop test at? Yeah, but it should be noted that those Max load/Speed limits are not what you're allowed to jump the canopy at legally. The Mfg. puts limits on the canopy that are usually much lower than the maximums required by the FAA. Those are the legal limits. There are reasons for this. Don't think just because it says "Certified to 254lbs" on your little reserve it means you can jump it at that weight! Stick to what the Mfg. tells you the limits are... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #10 May 28, 2003 if it were my own reserve then I would know what the openings were like and I most likely would use it as long as my rigger gave me the go-ahead. I just wouldnt want to buy a reserve that I didnt ride the cut-away. its just a personal deal... basically if a reserve had one ride and was inspected then I might buy it, I understand if it has 2 rides and is inspected it verywell might be as good as one with no rides or with 1 ride, but I would rather (if I got a used one which is unlikely anyways) it to have only 1 or less jumps... just a silly mentality I have... I am not saying though that a reserve with 3-4 rides cant be jumped, just if it were not mine and I actually didnt experience the reserve rides myself then I wouldnt want that canopy.. nuf said I feel like I am being really redundant..sorry for those of you who are still reading-yoshi _________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #11 May 28, 2003 QuoteI am not saying though that a reserve with 3-4 rides cant be jumped, just if it were not mine and I actually didnt experience the reserve rides myself then I wouldnt want that canopy.. Why not? What is it about a jumped reserve that you believe to be inferior to a never jumped, but previously packed, reserve? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #12 May 28, 2003 nothing statisticly, just my own stupid antics with no real reasons to back it up... plus I fortunately have the means for when I want new gear to get new gear rather than used, so that helps.. -yoshi _________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldnewbie 0 #13 May 29, 2003 I guess I need to ask this, since i have been wondering for some time now. A main you can jump 100's if not 1000's of times. Why is a reserve so fragile?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CRWBUDDHA 0 #14 May 29, 2003 Perhaps the knowledge you seek will be found on a path to a reputable manufacturer of reserve canopies. You might even consider asking them what are the lifetime limitations of their product. Once you become knowledgable in this area, you might even consider publishing what you discover ...That knowledge seems to be sorely missed amongst the responses you have recieved thus far. Become a mentor to others that follow..you'll be glad you did...... Cheers, CRWBUDDHA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #15 May 29, 2003 Actually... Search the fourms. The info is all here and most of it is by riggers that deal with it every day. PA once said you could pack a Raven as a reserve enven if it had a few hundred jumps on it as a main as long as it passed all the airworthness tests. And if you know the answer, post it. The manufactors do like to get asked questions, but they don't have time to answer the same question 50 times a day since someone won't tell.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d604 0 #16 May 29, 2003 QuoteI guess I need to ask this, since i have been wondering for some time now. A main you can jump 100's if not 1000's of times. Why is a reserve so fragile??Quote You want reserve canopies to be in excellent shape I own a great Raven II as a main it can open very fast and reliably, but it will never be used as a reserve I don’t trust it in that way. Actually the worst thing you can do other than drag it through thorns, etc. is pack a reserve. When I was taking my rigger course I would practice on one of my rigs constantly, I noticed the difference before the end of the course ~ 10 – 15 repacks. Sean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riddler 0 #17 May 29, 2003 QuoteSubterminal usually implies < 120 mph. I would be tempted to infer that by sub-terminal, they probably mean cutaway after having a fully-inflated main canopy (intentional cutway or cutaway due to unlandable main). There are other potential reasons for a sub-terminal reserve (low exit, etc), but they seem less likely. I guess I wouldn't think that terminal vs. sub-terminal opening makes a huge difference for the relatively low number of uses that a typical reserve gets. The repacks probably give more wear, unless there's a LOT of reserve uses. But it's all speculation. I usually ask what happened on the reserve deployments. Not only do you get to hear the no-shit-there-I-was stories, but you can be given clues about what not to do on that specific rig. I bought a rig where the previous owner described the only cutaway as happening after installing tube-stows on the D bag. Don't get me wrong - I have nothing against tube-stows, but I took that to mean don't install tube stows on that particular rig.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #18 May 29, 2003 QuoteHow big a deal is it to have a reserve that's had a non-sub-terminal (super-terminal?) ride? I suppose it'd be useful to know how non-sub-terminal it was, i.e. was it deployed at 120mph? 200? OUCH... 200MPH reserve opening....my body hurts all over just thinking about that. Of my 5 reserve rides only one was a really fast one with a pilot chute in tow and it hurt. But that was a round 26' LO-PO reserve. That fast an opening under a square reserve would be very severe and I hope to never have to experience that. On the other hand.. its preferable than meeting Planet Earth at that speed. Amazon Amazon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,406 #19 May 29, 2003 In terms of sheer wear, a reserve that has been deployed 10 times and repacked 10 times is in better shape than one that has never been deployed but repacked 20 times (assuming no damage during deployment, good care after landing etc.) It is packing, not deployment, that causes a canopy's fabric to 'wear out.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #20 May 29, 2003 Quote I guess I need to ask this, since i have been wondering for some time now. A main you can jump 100's if not 1000's of times. Why is a reserve so fragile?? A reserve is not fragile...It has higher degrees of care... The truth is that it is a canopy...simple as that. But since it is a last resort, it is made as strong as possible, is inspected more, is kept as simple as possible..No collapsable sliders, no dive loops (well ok I have a rig with them)ect... The fact that they are used to "save you"...Even though a main does it all the time, leads people to treat them as if they are "magical"... I personally have a PD113 with six rides on it. Am I worried? Nope. Its just a canopy, I trust my rigger, and I trust the company that made it. Will I get a new one? Sure as soon as I need to have two rigs again. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sducoach 0 #21 May 29, 2003 Hello, Help please. I don't believe I mentioned the FAA or the test loads. Tell me this, are the limits on the canopy label the FAA's max or the manufacturers max? And, it would be very hard to defend overload/overspeed opening damage to a manufacturer, FAA, or in court. Brings up a good question for riggers. If you know the owner is overloading the reserve, what is your responsibility? How about posting that question for us rigging65? Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sducoach 0 #22 May 29, 2003 Kool deal, personal feelings need to be listened to. Just don't want someone to "think" they are throw a way reserves. I've got a MR135 I'd sell with no rides on it but the logos are worn just due to packing. A used reserve can be just fine. Simply make sure a rigger you trust fully inspects the canopy. Have fun and keep "feeling" good!!! Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sducoach 0 #23 May 29, 2003 Help again. If it has been used as a main, can you use it as a reserve after that??? Second, why do you not trust it? Raven reserves are all over the place? J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #24 May 29, 2003 QuoteIt is packing, not deployment, that causes a canopy's fabric to 'wear out.' Has PD shown that there is a problem with fabric strength after 20-40 repacks, or just porosity? I understand the claim that porosity increases with repacks even without a deployment, but this must not matter too much in terms of practical "wearing out" because F-111 mains still last for hundreds of jumps before their performance is not acceptable, and they get a repack and deployment with each jump. Sure, I can accept that the porosity may increase simply from packing , but I think that the effect of deployments and repacks on the STRENGTH of the fabric is what should concern us. The porosity change after 40 repacks just can't matter that much given that F-111 main canopies still fly like new with the same usage. Perhaps the difference is the length of time that the canopy is packed? If so, perhaps a reserve that fits easily in a container is better than one that must be packed very tightly. I can understand PD's desire to test the strength after some period of time/repacks, it just seems that there is more to this issue than what has been claimed.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CRWBUDDHA 0 #25 May 29, 2003 Perhaps you would care to disclose the reputable published source, by Title, Article, Page and Paragraph that substantiates your claims of damage due to packing. Upon conclusion of that exercise, perhaps you would disclose those elusive test results from an independant non destructive testing facility proported to substantiate your claims........ Would you please tell me how many tests were performed, on how many parachutes, on what type of fabric, made from what type of fiber, in what type of monitored conditions over what period of time and what year was this undertaken? Fascinated by the prospect of your response...... CRWBUDDHA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
riddler 0 #17 May 29, 2003 QuoteSubterminal usually implies < 120 mph. I would be tempted to infer that by sub-terminal, they probably mean cutaway after having a fully-inflated main canopy (intentional cutway or cutaway due to unlandable main). There are other potential reasons for a sub-terminal reserve (low exit, etc), but they seem less likely. I guess I wouldn't think that terminal vs. sub-terminal opening makes a huge difference for the relatively low number of uses that a typical reserve gets. The repacks probably give more wear, unless there's a LOT of reserve uses. But it's all speculation. I usually ask what happened on the reserve deployments. Not only do you get to hear the no-shit-there-I-was stories, but you can be given clues about what not to do on that specific rig. I bought a rig where the previous owner described the only cutaway as happening after installing tube-stows on the D bag. Don't get me wrong - I have nothing against tube-stows, but I took that to mean don't install tube stows on that particular rig.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #18 May 29, 2003 QuoteHow big a deal is it to have a reserve that's had a non-sub-terminal (super-terminal?) ride? I suppose it'd be useful to know how non-sub-terminal it was, i.e. was it deployed at 120mph? 200? OUCH... 200MPH reserve opening....my body hurts all over just thinking about that. Of my 5 reserve rides only one was a really fast one with a pilot chute in tow and it hurt. But that was a round 26' LO-PO reserve. That fast an opening under a square reserve would be very severe and I hope to never have to experience that. On the other hand.. its preferable than meeting Planet Earth at that speed. Amazon Amazon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #19 May 29, 2003 In terms of sheer wear, a reserve that has been deployed 10 times and repacked 10 times is in better shape than one that has never been deployed but repacked 20 times (assuming no damage during deployment, good care after landing etc.) It is packing, not deployment, that causes a canopy's fabric to 'wear out.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #20 May 29, 2003 Quote I guess I need to ask this, since i have been wondering for some time now. A main you can jump 100's if not 1000's of times. Why is a reserve so fragile?? A reserve is not fragile...It has higher degrees of care... The truth is that it is a canopy...simple as that. But since it is a last resort, it is made as strong as possible, is inspected more, is kept as simple as possible..No collapsable sliders, no dive loops (well ok I have a rig with them)ect... The fact that they are used to "save you"...Even though a main does it all the time, leads people to treat them as if they are "magical"... I personally have a PD113 with six rides on it. Am I worried? Nope. Its just a canopy, I trust my rigger, and I trust the company that made it. Will I get a new one? Sure as soon as I need to have two rigs again. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #21 May 29, 2003 Hello, Help please. I don't believe I mentioned the FAA or the test loads. Tell me this, are the limits on the canopy label the FAA's max or the manufacturers max? And, it would be very hard to defend overload/overspeed opening damage to a manufacturer, FAA, or in court. Brings up a good question for riggers. If you know the owner is overloading the reserve, what is your responsibility? How about posting that question for us rigging65? Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #22 May 29, 2003 Kool deal, personal feelings need to be listened to. Just don't want someone to "think" they are throw a way reserves. I've got a MR135 I'd sell with no rides on it but the logos are worn just due to packing. A used reserve can be just fine. Simply make sure a rigger you trust fully inspects the canopy. Have fun and keep "feeling" good!!! Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #23 May 29, 2003 Help again. If it has been used as a main, can you use it as a reserve after that??? Second, why do you not trust it? Raven reserves are all over the place? J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #24 May 29, 2003 QuoteIt is packing, not deployment, that causes a canopy's fabric to 'wear out.' Has PD shown that there is a problem with fabric strength after 20-40 repacks, or just porosity? I understand the claim that porosity increases with repacks even without a deployment, but this must not matter too much in terms of practical "wearing out" because F-111 mains still last for hundreds of jumps before their performance is not acceptable, and they get a repack and deployment with each jump. Sure, I can accept that the porosity may increase simply from packing , but I think that the effect of deployments and repacks on the STRENGTH of the fabric is what should concern us. The porosity change after 40 repacks just can't matter that much given that F-111 main canopies still fly like new with the same usage. Perhaps the difference is the length of time that the canopy is packed? If so, perhaps a reserve that fits easily in a container is better than one that must be packed very tightly. I can understand PD's desire to test the strength after some period of time/repacks, it just seems that there is more to this issue than what has been claimed.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CRWBUDDHA 0 #25 May 29, 2003 Perhaps you would care to disclose the reputable published source, by Title, Article, Page and Paragraph that substantiates your claims of damage due to packing. Upon conclusion of that exercise, perhaps you would disclose those elusive test results from an independant non destructive testing facility proported to substantiate your claims........ Would you please tell me how many tests were performed, on how many parachutes, on what type of fabric, made from what type of fiber, in what type of monitored conditions over what period of time and what year was this undertaken? Fascinated by the prospect of your response...... CRWBUDDHA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
